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As a sample of 1, I have quite a few friends who are 'into watches' but I know no one that has any interest in horology.
Considering the sheer number of automatic watches sold over the past few years, you'd think the demand for watchmakers would be through the roof.
Is this the case, and has anyone thought about trying to practise the art themselves, with a view to eventually being able to service your own movements?
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I think you are right, for many there is a real tension between buying something that is sold as a potential heirloom and the reality that there is a massive disparity between the number of watches sold, the number of watch repairers and the remarkable price of both comparatively simple tasks and more complex work. I'm not sure how this disparity will play out in the long run, but I suspect that while many watches may be bought as long term purchases, they end up being treated more like high end semi disposables, such as mobile phones and are sold on for substantial losses. As for vintage, you have to go a fair way up the perceived pecking order before paying for servicing becomes a viable option.
Like many who collect a few watches, I'm good enough to service and troubleshoot my own simple clocks and watches, but if it's complex or valuable, I'll usually pass it on to an expert. I wouldn't dream of working on anyone else's watch mechanisms and I tip my hat to anyone who takes on that responsibility.
I have suspicion that many recently produced mechanical watches won’t be serviced in a traditional way by manufacturers when their service is due.
It makes no economical sense whatsoever to train a watchmaker to strip and rebuild a movement when simply swapping out a machine assembled movement would be much cheaper and faster.
The number of repairers is certainly falling, and the ones that remain will only be interested in the jobs where they can charge most. It's no harder working on an Omega than a cheap old 60s watch that belonged to someone's dad.
Servicing a mechanical watch properly involves stripping the whole thing down, there's little if any scope for short cuts, and that takes time. Add on the overheads (watch cleaning solvents at over £10/litre etc), heating and lighting of the work area, the ever-increasing cost of spare parts plus the time involved in tracking parts down, it's easy to see how the costs mount up.
Car owners can still do basic maintenance on their cars, such as changing oil, spark plugs, brake pads etc so they can save money by doing stuff themselves, but there's not really an analogy for servicing a watch. You have to develop the skills and technique to do the whole thing, and that includes getting the tools, cleaning materials, oils etc too. Unless you plan to make a hobby of it, it isn`t viable to set yourself up to maintain a few of your own. Changing batteries should be within the scope of most people but even that requires decent case-opening tools, a case clamp, a well-lip work area, a few decent magnifiers, a few screwdrivers, a couple of bits of pegwood (cocktail sticks will suffice) and a stick of Rodico. Finger cots and plastic tweezers also help.
I would never put anyone off, I started in 2010 with no previous experience (apart from car work, DIY and laboratory work) but I was lucky to get some training paid for at the BHI as part of my redundancy package, that helped me a lot to get started. Would I recommend this route to anyone else?.........maybe, but it's got a whole lot harder with manufacturers restricting parts supply and that frustrates me greatly.
I’m amazed this doesn’t happen as a matter of course. It would speed up service times immensely.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisparker
This is how Seiko do it for at least their “lower end” watches. I know this because not that long ago sending a watch in for service minus the movement was exactly the same price…Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyO
There is something of a mystique that they have to maintain for the higher end stuff - like “must be sent to Japan”, but cynically I suspect that this is also true for the mid range and possibly some of the higher end as well
Dave
For your latter point, my younger brother has been teaching himself how to do it. He's got a bunch of old Midos he's been working on and he's been trying to stick to one family of movements so he can cannibalize parts. It's very delicate work and I suspect it's really not for everyone. Adjusting the rate and such is not a terribly difficult process for a lot of movements, but fully stripping down, lubricating the jewels, replacing teeny-tiny parts, that's all kinda fiddly and requires a steady hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverte
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I've had that done with a Longines Service & currently one of my Hamiltons is in for service (waiting for part's) but in there list of thing's getting done is a service via movement swap.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyO
It doesn't bother me but just waiting for parts, Hands, Crown, Pushers ect is a pain in the @r$e, 2 month so far.
Sent from a technical device.
As something of an aside, I visited Blancpain a few years ago and we were told that - in Switzerland at least - ensuring an ongoing supply of watchmakers was proving very difficult. That despite salaries averaging over £100k per annum for the top watch houses.
I quit a well paid job to study horology at University in the Jewellery Quarter Birmingham just over a year ago
Its a 3 year full time course, in the final year you have to build a clock from scratch, design it cut the teeth and so on.
Its an interesting course and at the end should amount to a Honours Degree fingers crossed.
We started with 14 of use in the first year now there are only 9 of use remaining
PS your never going to see anything like 100k over here in the UK
I remember some of your posts and tried to search for them before writing my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by bazza.
Is clockwork horology different to wristwatch horology, or will your degree give you the ability to work with all types of watches / clocks, etc?
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I'm sure Bazza will correct me if I`m wrong, but I was under the impression that the 3 year course included clocks AND watches.
I toyed with the idea of going down that path myself in 2010 when I took early retirement from my career, instead I settled for 3 separate residential courses (5 days each) at the BHI covering basic watch repair, automatic watches and chronographs. Having crammed that into a few months out of necessity (to get the funding) I paused for breath and reflected on where I was heading. After a period of self-tuition, building on what I`d learned, I reached a level where I could happily strip a watch down, sort out the faults, and build it back up. I wasn`t interested in clocks, never had an urge to work on them, and I didn`t see the need to learn how to use a lathe and make a balance staff etc so I didn`t do any further training. In hindsight I wish I`d done the lathe course, that would've been useful.
I'm not sure how learning to make a clock makes you better at fixing watches, if there had been a course aimed exclusively at watches I may have gone for it and gained a proper qualification, after 10+ years of experience I`m not sure I`d be any better off but I`m sure I would've learned faster.
I`ve currently got a couple of Valjoux chronographs to service this week, plus a 1930s watch that's proving to be a challenge, and a couple of minor warranty jobs for a microbrand, that'll keep me busy for the week. I'd hate to be doing this as a full-time job to put bread on the table, doing it through choice with a very limited workload is OK but the thought of turning up to a workshop with other people 5 days/week doesn`t thrill me, I much prefer working on my own to suit myself, I pick the music and if the suns shining I break off and enjoy the weather. Sadly I don`t think the one-man band model works on a commercial basis any longer, the manufacturers have spoiled that with their petty parts supply restrictions.
The course is clock and watchmaking, first year is mostly clocks and understanding how they work.
Plus how to use the tools required to make the parts, the lathe being what we use the most.
Then later in the year we get to work watch movements and the use of CAD.
Then understand which oils to use and the difference between oils like 9145 and 914 and when to use them.
The 2nd year we had to get are self a platform escapement clock strip it down and service it as if we are doing it for a client
and service 5 difference keeps of watch movements always checking the right amount of oil levels and most importantly the end stone levels.
We also have the business side of it as will to learn,
We had many of the watch brands come to the Uni to try and tempt the 3rd years to go to them including the likes of Tag CW watches of Switzerland and Beaumont
In fact we are of to Beaumont Thursday for a tour of there place.
The course is 4 days a week Mon Tues Thur Fri
Can you imagine a teenager saying to their parents that they're going to university to do a course in clock and watchmaking. The first thing parents will do is look at job opportunities and it's so niche that certainly in the north of England, they'll never find one. Imo, the only way forward is to do what Bremont (and I'm sure others) have done is in work apprenticeships.
As for working on your own watch, the vast majority of luxury watch owners probably don't even wash their own car, never mind work on it so can you imagine them working on a luxury watch. They'll take it straight back to where they purchased it, send it for a service and complain bitterly about how long it's taking and how much it costs, then do the same thing all over again.
I just had a quick look and there are well over 10 watch and clock repair centres in Newcastle aloneQuote:
Originally Posted by theancientmariner
Watches of Switzerland say they are after 44 watchmakers over the next 3 years
And how much are they willing to pay them? When I first got involved with watches in the mid 90s as a collector, a watch repairer made a comment I`ve never forgotten.......'Skills of a surgeon, wages of a dustman'.....has anything changed? Anyone working as a repairer should ideally be working for themselves as a one man band, no point in letting anyone else profit from their efforts, but that avenue has been almost closed by the watch manufacturers because they set the bar so high in terms of accreditation etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by bazza.
How many of those repair centres actually repair in-house? There are a few independent repairers around but none that I can think of where a young person would look and want to work there. I think most either do it as a pastime or are barely scratching a living.Quote:
Originally Posted by bazza.
as for WoS, I wonder how many watch makers they will actually get. 14-15 watch makers per year doesn't sound like an awful lot.
A friend has just stated at Rolex think he said it starts at 40KQuote:
Originally Posted by walkerwek1958
Working for yourself is ok as long as you know somewhere to get ETA and Rolex parts from as its getting harder I'm lucky where I work
As we have some good contacts
WOS are building a new centre and its not based in London but that all I can say there , 15 doesn't sound much but there are only 9 in are year and most don'tQuote:
Originally Posted by theancientmariner
want to work in the UK anyway, The Watch Atelier are after a lot also plus there are lots of jobs abroad, I'm of to Bremont in a sec as they want people also.
Were I work we are doing ok around 4/6 turn round but we don't have a shop front the place round the corner which has is booked up for 16 weeks with 2/3 watchmakers
80% of are work is Rolex but we are mostly trade
I have nothing but respect for watch repairers. I think one of the main difficulties is learning to handle and work on tiny parts, especially when the eyesight starts deteriorating with age.
There used to be a couple of good chaps who did my watches via a friend of mine but they are retired now and I'm not sure any youngsters are going to fill the gap. :culpability:
Agree 100% regarding handling tiny parts, I came from a background of laboratory work and car work, with an eye for detail and precision, I expected to find it easy to work on watches but I got a shock when I first tried! Learning to pick small parts and screws up using tweezers whilst looking through a magnifier is a unique skill in itself and previous experience with fiddly manual tasks isn`t really a transferrable skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil.C
Eyesight isn`t too much of a problem, the trick is to use the correct magnifiers combined with a good work area and very strong light. Without glasses my eyesight's not great but it's never been a problem with watchwork.
A key prerequisite is having a steady hand, but here's where the correct bench height and seating position comes in. The trick is to rest your forearms and wrists on the bench with your chin a few inches above the bench, sounds odd but it isn`t, it allows your hands to become very stable and relaxed.
The most useful transferrable skill for me has been problem-solving. I spent large chunks of my career in a problem-solving role and even did training courses in how to tackle a problem logically and rationally. Same approach is vital when trying to work out why a watch is misbehaving, a clear and logical thought process is the key to solving the problem.
If I could change one thing in the world of watch-fettling it would be the restriction on parts supply, an insidious philosophy that's becoming universal. If parts are obsolete or discontinued I can accept that, but restricting supply of parts that are available cannot be justified in my opinion. I think it's the single largest factor that limits the attraction of a career as a watch repairer, in my eyes that's a great shame. I`m 66 next January, I`m reaching the stage where I`m winding down or maybe even giving up, but for anyone looking to train up and get into watch work this is a major barrier that undermines the feasibility of making a living out of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkerwek1958
Couldn't agree more.