Is it the beginning of the end for the "Civil Servant"?
https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...ned-in-the-us/
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Is it the beginning of the end for the "Civil Servant"?
https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...ned-in-the-us/
Took them ages to get it to be reliable, it's old and probably bettered by a lot of stuff these days.
Quite possibly, as the new L403A1 may influence Project Grayburn.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimp
When I was in the TA we first used the SLR 7.62, the 5.56 SA80 felt a bit underwhelming afterwards.
Yes remember those days, the slr was a beast, my issue had the plastic type furniture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lammylee
Seem to recall reading there was better stuff when they brought it out, as in better bullpups already available...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK
Looks like they might have dusted off a 1951 design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Passenger
https://youtu.be/ry_NOXwCBX8?si=g8ZMnOk_ON-bBIQQ
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Wow, so long ago, what happened to that! Would that be the Janson- EM2 rifle?Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyCasper
More here,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EM-2_rifle
The first 15million for 1620 rifles has been placed
Thats over 9k per rifle!
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The EM2 is covered by Forgotten Weapons in detail. There is irony in the British wanting a light round after WW2. The US Army digging their heels in for the 7.62. So Churchill agreed to get NATO standardisation. Then a bit after the US go to 5.56 anyway. Now they are going to 6.8 with the MCX Spear. The main concern there seems to be less rounds of ammunition could be carried by an individual soldier. I guess they think more accurate and hard hitting means less used. It also seems the bull pup design is gradually falling out of favour worldwide. We should have just used an AR type platform from the off given how proven it has become.
I / we converted from the SLR to the SA80 whilst serving in Northern Ireland in the mid 1980's. Have to say the 80 was pretty poor for using it to attack obstacles, ie fences etc.
What made it more of a bine for me is that I had to learn how to shoot right handed as I am a lefty, but this came with a lot of practice. I really like the weapon and it got better when H & K took on the contact, apart from always carrying out the forward assist.
Maybe the new rifle will have the cocking handle on the correct side this time :witless:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVak...nel=ForcesNews
And lots of money to get it reliableQuote:
Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK
Good riddance. Unnecessarily heavy, too unreliable, unnecessarily complicated to strip, too many unnecessary quirks. Making it better over a 40 year period doesn't make it good, it was always a lemon.
It should never have been issued.
A welcome development, but I wonder whether anyone will want the SA80's?
As desperate as Ukraine are, I'm not sure they will be keen but who knows.
Best,
Ben
They have one use - getting decommissioned, mounted on a plank and presented to some retiring late-entry Rupert.Quote:
Originally Posted by burnside
Why are the British adopting a weapon the USA are finally dropping?
M
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This (project Hunter)seems to be an interim replacement for some special units, rather than a wholesale replacement which will be project grayburn.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman
Performance is secound to reliability,same with any military hardware.
You never worried about either stoppages or parts breaking with the SLR.
If you did get a stoppage it was easily cleared in most instances.
Keep it clean,we would clean our weapons first before we did anything else in the field or in barracks.
Tweak the gas plug if the working parts weren't snapping back.
Dry clean in sandy conditions,only put 18 rounds in the magazine.
keep the magazines clean, check the spring and make sure you had no dents on the body particularly the lip.
Gun firing,gun stops drilled into us non stop until it was secound nature, we could do it in the dark.
The SA80 was a very poor choice especially for L/H shooters.
It never leaves you
When I did my CIC at Catterick, the weapon I was issued was so old & worn that you could hold the grip, shake it & see the top part wobbling about because the pins were worn out.
Back in battalion, butt no.79 never let me down.
Forgotten Weapons (YouTube channel) has a very good video series for the L85 as he calls it, plus a very good pair on the L96.
Not an expert but thought the SA80 ( A2 ? I think in my case) was alright , capable and accurate . But a bit heavy and clunky.
I preferred the G36k as better all round and lighter or perhaps less bulky maybe . I preferred the sight on the G36k just about . Still felt it was slightly awkward but dont have much experience to form that opinion really.
Id probably prefer the AK47 over the SA80 but it seems to do the job from my small knowledge. I also seem to prefer older guns like the browning hipower over a glock for example despite the glocks generally being great to use , lighter and told having a better trigger than the terrible hipower trigger ( Im not expert enough to really discern that) .
Not an expert , not a gun fan just opinion based on my novice experience with the SA80
Many different manufactures of AK47 and different qualitys, a Yugoslavian built one was 10 times better than those made in poorer countrys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D
It was obvious when you saw them side by side without even firing them.
I took a mag of a cheap one once and the bullets fell out on the ground,he had overloaded it and broken or weakened the mag spring it was poor quality but would still fire.
The reason it was so good was even a poor one would fire however worn it was and it was hard to break.
People with little training could fire it.
Couldnt tell you where the AKs came from , they were very well maintained but far from new . It felt better than SA80 to use and seemed at least as accurate .Quote:
Originally Posted by bwest76
The SA80 had that weird right side cocking lever which felt so unnatural to twist the gun over whilst jamming it steady against my chest. almost felt I might slip and punch myself by accident. I never understood the point of that .
I know many an SA80 shooter, and not one who rated it highly. Right side cocking being the most mentioned issue / fuckup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D
Guessing stood on your head, in the shadow of the boathouse at Hereford that left, right, up & down are just insignificant once you know the colour it was painted.
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You probably had a good version of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D
I only shot the SA80 a few times,I agree about the cocking lever,everything felt awkward to me about the whole rifle.
I havent touched a SLR in 40 years I could still operate it now (slower of course) everything was natural and felt right with it.
Didnt it also alter the whole premise of a section attack which the British Army had practiced for decades.
Thats is a gun group laying down covering fire while the riflemen advance.
I cant be sure on that though so its a question.
😁 Im definitely no expert but Im not Sean Bean either. Weird that even a novice like me found the gun to be decidedly off . whats with the right sided ? Surely thats just obviously not a good thing .Quote:
Originally Posted by Mj2k
At 16 I was put in the gun group when we where training in a Welsh valley.
It was hard work,gun group left then gun group right non stop.
We would have to cross the sodden valley one side to the other, tripping over and getting sucked in the bog.
If we where to slow we did it again till our legs where like jelly, meanwhile in comparison the rest of the section is advancing line abreast at a relative dawdle.
I can still hear our Sergeants voice yelling at us,it never leaves you.
We learnt a lot though (like dont join the PBI).:encouragement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1YYgeF_dMs
Very flawed design from the start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D
Love the Ronin reference!
Of you look through the Museum at the Small arms school in Warminster (if its still there) you will see the forerunner of the SA80, sure it was even a smaller calibre. Last time I was there was in 85 doing the instructors course. The only time I got to play with the SA80 was to throw some off a roof after they had been sitting in water and see if they could shoot straight that was while they were still in development. The SLR had great stopping power but was getting old in a new world and they thought the way forward was the steel core 5.56 which brought its own problems.
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I think the EM2 had a calibre of 4.85mm but a very high velocity. I think it also was the first British rifle to feature an optic? Check out Forgotten Weapons YouTube videos about the EM1 & EM2 rifles as well as the development of the L85 / SA80 series.Quote:
Originally Posted by aa388
The EM2 was .280 (as were the early FN FALs - from which came the SLR) - However the US wanted a 7.62mm (.30) cartridge as the NATO standard, mainly for machine gun use and were prepared to compromise their (and everyone else's rifles to get that). So the EM2 was dropped for an 7.62mm FAL (the SLR) and most production FALs were also 7.62mmQuote:
Originally Posted by Speedy2254
Meanwhile the US (having pretended that they might adopt the 7.62 FAL to win favour) went ahead with the M14 in 7.62 - quickly realised their mistake and swapped to the M16 within 8 years (for use in Vietnam) and 12 years for the remainder of their army - oddly the M14 never quite went away though and re-emerged as a Designated Marksman's Rifle in the early 2000s.
The criteria with any military small arms is for any minimally trained reasonably fit personnel to reliably and accurately kill and/or disable as many of the enemy as possible. Reliability is important and the ability to easily hit a man sized target at up to 300m is useful.
The AK platform is arguably the best suited as estimates of up to 100 million produced, half of those under license outside Russia, would testify to that.
I will miss dropping the old firing pin retaining pin into a dark shell-scrape, and the panicked minutes of fecking about finding it.
And the face of the armoury ssgt when someone has scotchbrited the barrel from a nice matt black to an almost chrome shine
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How about the bleeding knuckles from the dust cover?Quote:
Originally Posted by notenoughwrists
Good times :) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimm
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Spoke to an armourer friend about why the SA80 has a right side cocking handle when to me it makes sense the left side or ambidextrous is better . It was bothering me.
He agreed that its a problem on the SA80 as a gun this modern shouldnt have a right hand side handle .
I mentioned the AK47 as having a right sided handle but its easier to cock compared with working your way around the bulk of the SA80 to reload . The reason for that is that its easier to weld the handle on the bolt where its accessible through the body of the gun which is same side as the ejection port .
Also in years gone by when handling rifles it was expected to keep the gun held primarily with the left hand and open and close the bolt with the right when reloading which does make sense .
That still doesnt explain the sa80 though and he just considers it a bit not very good.
The actual reason is because the rifle is a cut and shut AR18, The early prototypes were actually Sterling AR18s cut up and welded back together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D
Enfield bought several from Sterling in secret and modified them to bull pup configuration (there is a whole political interference, underhand government dealing and usual government procurement stupidity angle to the story, that is well worth reading up on if so inclined) the MOD should have bought the AR18 from Sterling as it was in production and proven (let’s face it the IRA loved it), but the government wanted to keep Enfield open and operating.
The Enfield design team were new, non specialist engineers and had no idea how to design a fire arm or indeed use one so the kept the controls in the original AR18 locations.
By way of comparison, The Styer AUG is also based on the AR18 (the bolt and bolt carrier at least) and was designed around the same time, but Styer actually knew what they were doing, so the safety is a cross bold acting on the trigger and they got around the safety / selector position by introducing a 2 stage progressive trigger. The charging handle is also separate to the bolt carrier, you pull the handle back and it engages the bolt via a rod, it feels a bit strange at first but you get used to it, (you also lose all the skin on your knuckles when using it). The AUG is also full ambidextrous with a simple conversion to flip the bolt upside down and flip the extraction port cover from one side to the other.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...10deaa43af.jpg
The AUG is a much better rifle IMO and is easier to strip and clean as a bonus.
Extremely interesting to read & sense a few hours to be lost down this rabbit hole for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinnlover
As mentioned forgotten weapons on you tube is a good place to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mj2k
Its actually a really interesting story if you like that sort of thing.
Agreed - I think I've watched every video on FW and many more than once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinnlover
Ian is refreshingly unpolitical (he obviously likes guns, but sticks to the technology and history of weapons) and has some amazingly interesting firearms covered.
His books (Headstamp Publishing) are great quality too, but expensive for those outside the USA (although they're trying with supplies in the EU now - Still $35 for shipping to the UK though).
The head of firearms at the UK National Armoury museum wrote a book for them on the history of British bullpup rifles.
M
Don't think anyone will be that sad to see it go
We started getting the SA80 in the late 80's and until the early 90's I rarely fired it but i put 1000's of rounds through one in Canada and some on full auto and they were very reliable but the SLR's they replaced were 30 years old a bit like the Browning pistols we had in the 90's were 1960's versions, in fact we had some Glock 17's in 1993 and they weren't formally adopted until 2013, change simply happens too slowly .
So comparing a new L85 vs a 30 year old L1A1 the former should be reliable but it's a shame they were only like that for a short time unlike the SLR
This thread makes me feel old.
My first small arms course, did not include the SA 80, only the SLR, LMG, SMG, Browning 9mm, Walther PPK, Browning (I think) semi automatic shotgun and a couple of flare guns. Had to go back at a later date to add the SA80 'Q'. After quickly leaving small arms (for fast jets), I had nothing to do with GPMG ever, until one day I ended up on short notice with the joint helicopter force at Basra. Had to ask a Rock Ape to show me how it came apart. That was also my first encounter with AK47's, versions that looked like they'd been made in some guy's shed...... with limited materials/tools/skills.
All weapons of choice back in the mid 70's when I joined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnut
Personally and I maybe slightly biased but the SLR was the best rifle ever.
Fond memories, both on parade, with a slacked off stock, to increase the noise when you slapped it and in the field.
I remember my small arms instructor, telling us that at 100m a bullet fired from it, would pass through "Targets" if they happen to be standing behind each other!
Still like the browning hipower. Especially with the magazine disconnect removed and trigger improved.
Clearly some people know a lot more about weapons than I do.
As 15/16 year olds we trained on the SLR (Gat) SMG (Smudge gun) LMG (LMG) and Pistol (pistol).
We missed out on bayonet and grenade drills,just the way it went.
20 years after I left I did some training/shooting with the SA 80, what I remember most was the big board with all the bits on it that could break/go wrong and the awkward handling.
There is no doubt in my mind the SLR was a better weapon,the first thing any weapon has to be is reliable.
We never gave it a secound thought that it might let us down.
I can still feel the kick in the shoulder and hear the crack.
The ergonomics where perfect like the way your thumb was perfectly positioned on the selector.
By the way if you shot right you lost hearing left and vice versa,poor quality ear plugs even if we where allowed to use them,nothing ever over the ear.
In the 90s I saw first hand the Serbs (Yugoslavian) Kalashnikovs which where Rolls Royce compared to the Bosnian Armys cheap copys.
Though inferior even when mishandled and dirty they would still work to some degree,ideal for poorly trained troops.
Later they got G3s (I think) it seemed overnight,in and around the Mostar area,we drove past them and they where as pleased as punch.
The story of the Zastava M70 (Serbian AK47) is equally as interesting as the story of the SA80 (again if that way inclined) it was not licence built but reversed engineered without the Soviet’s knowing. Yet they arguably produced the best version of the AK in its original form (ignoring the Galil or Valmat) which was then sold to lots of countries including Egypt and Iraq.
I put 10 rounds through an Izhevsk AK101 last Saturday, it’s much better than the Chinese type 56 which I shot in September. But the M70 and even better M76 (7.92x57) wipe the floor in terms of solidity and accuracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinnlover
Where/how do you get to shoot?
I was offered them for 250DM a pop from the Croats (anyone listening in I didnt buy any of course) I did legally have the bayonet which was also well made (it was also a wire cutter with the scabbard).
I also had one of the cheap AK bayonets, I gave them away (as souvenirs only I never carried them,always unarmed).
Even with all the hell going on people where still willing to make money over principles and there own people.
The Mostar mafia carried on exploiting (Croation and Muslim same gang when the rest where killing each other),they tried to rope me in that was a one way ticket to a ditch I avoided.
It was only much later I found out there was a very strong Mafia in Sarajevo.