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I recently rewatched the Grand Tour episode, Carnage a Trois, and Clarkson said that in France the car is not seen as a status symbol. If you buy an expensive car it's considered bourgeois. President Mitterand had a Renault 5!
So it made me think: which watches might fall into the non-bourgeois category? (Perhaps exclude the FW91, and maybe digital altogether - as they might be too obvious and therefore not interesting suggestions).
Let the revolutionary suggestions begin!
It’s kind of the same in the UK
New Money - Range Rover Sport, shiny nylon clothing with lots of labels, flash trainers
Old Money - Land Rover 110, waxed green clothing and stout brogues
:-)
I would say Sinn would be Non Bourgeois (I would)
Good Quality, hard wearing but not flash.
Now where are my brogues…
You can't avoid the fact that not-bourgeois = cheap, and being France anything non-French is automatically excluded.
However this leaves you with at least two contenders that are pretty cool IMHO:
Yema: founded in 1948 and still going strong, it's a brand with some real history, including models used in assorted space missions:
https://strapcode.files.wordpress.co...tionaute-1.jpg
Mostly tool-watches, they're very good value new and can be found for absolute £buttons used. They even have an in-house movement these days.
_______________________________________
Even more zanily French are Montres Lip - best know for the instantly-recognisable, Roger Tallon-designed 'Mach2000':
https://premiumsportsandracingcars.c...phe-671159.jpg
In production in assorted iterations continuously since 1974, it's technically impossible for a timepiece to get any more wackily French, and it's affordable, too...
All aboard the horology tumbril, we're going for a ride!
In the boot of your MX5, with a couple of pairs of waist 38, short inside leg denim jeans.😀Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinnlover
It seems a contradiction in terms, since you (or Clarkson) imply that an expensive car is status-defining.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldHooky
What is true is that cars are not year-coded by their licence plate. As such, if a model hasn't had a facelift you cannot say if it's an almost new or several years old.
Consequently, people change cars because they fancy a change or because the old one is out of guarantee, or tired, not because their colleagues would snigger at them having last year's model. That also means that second hand cars in France are much dearer than here.
Back to your question: Lip is iconic, not so much for their watches but for the social protest known as the Lip Affaire in the early seventies (you can read more here, but you'll need to use Google translate as the page doesn't exist in English yet). That said, De Gaulle wore a Lip and the older models were really good quality.
Yema has a very valid space connection, Dodane and Auricoste an Air Force one. Breguet and Cartier are seen as high end; WIS will know Pequignet, non-WIS will probably mention Kelton. But a bit like here, if it's not Rolex most people won't notice what you wear on your wrist and a minute number will use it to define you.
Clarkson owes his entire career/ schtick/persona/wealth to shilling for the car industry so he's going to push the cars are status defining notion as the car industry leans heavily into this and the UK like the US is all about wealth, status, class. I'm guessing the French don't have , indulge the wanky vanity plate thing either.
Where does a French micro brand like Baltic fit?
You could argue that the 'non-bourgeois' watches would have to be digital, or at least quartz - and more likely smart watches. Mechanical watches are an anachronism in 2024 so to choose to wear one could be considered to be bourgeois...
Hmm you might be right, the mechanical watch pretension inherently bourgeois.:eekskull:Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil.Ldn
Correct :icon_biggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Passenger
I have no idea. As I said it hardly register on people's radar. The place you live, maybe, and even that is misleading: In Paris the XVIth arrondissement was the posh one, VIIth was old money; Nowadays XIth and XIXth, once popular/poor areas have become very gentrified so you could say that simply living in Paris is bourgeois. But what's on your wrist? NoQuote:
Originally Posted by Passenger
WIS don't categorise people's watches as "bourgeois", even here. There are many watch brands that hardly cross the Channel: BRM (our version of Graham, but Bernard Richard is a genuine character and a jolly nice chap, even though his watches are not my cup of tea (or should that be "verre de vin"?), Hegid, Charlie Paris, Gustave & Cie, SYE... You do know B&R, Herbelin, Alain Silberstein, maybe not L. Leroy. I won't even go on the Haute Couture brands (Chanel, LV, etc.)
Sounds so very mature, civilised, egalitarian :eagerness:Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint-Just
I think the reality is that normal people take zero notice of other peoples watches so I wouldn’t worry about it.
Unless your watch is a big yellow gold clock it will likely go unnoticed.
I suspect the only brand people would generally consider expensive or flash would be Rolex because that is the most known luxury brand.
For clarification, I wasn’t suggesting French-only brands. I’d propose the Max Bill as one contender.
As for Rolex, what other people think or whether Clarkson is right isn’t the point. It’s what might fall into this hypothetical category.
Just a bit of fun.
I've been looking at the common English definitions of bourgeois & bourgeoisie.
They're two terms that don't translate well into English. The usual English translation to 'middle-class' & 'middle-classes' doesn't express the nuances of the French words. Then, of course, there's the (no, not Groucho!) Marxist slant on the words to consider.
Just off to find Luis Bunuel's film 'The Discreet Charm Of The Bourgeoisie' to see if the old Spaniard really had a handle on it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwg663
I'm with you on that. I remember a German colleague complaining to a number of expat colleagues that a different expat colleague was unbearably bourgeois - using a word that arguably doesn't exist in English to describe a characteristic that isn't a thing in the anglosphere was always going to be a tall order. It's good job we have it covered with widely understood and precise terminology like U and non-U :kiwi-fruit:.
I have very pleasant memories of a very senior colleague, who had just returned from a Paris posting, arriving at a fairly posh London do in an ancient rust-coloured Mini Metro
Slipped a bit into a G&D conversation. Could we get it back on topic please?
Thanks
Timex
A Cartier tank, but only if you were given it or inherited it. Buying an expensive watch is like buying you own furniture. :)
thank you , i knew there had to be a technical name for the phenomenon which makes me want to shout "wot a TWAAAAAAAT !!!" every time i observe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Passenger
80s Ebel or Cartier on ladies screams old money!
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I think one has to start with a definition of what the bourgeoisie is.
To me, it’s the influential middle class elite, the conservative (small c) establishment, content with perpetuating the status quo.
Then, next question: what’s a bourgeois watch?
In my opinion that’s difficult to answer because I don’t think there is such a thing.
So what’s an anti-bourgeois watch? Either something for the aristocracy or the working class.
So the King’s Parmigiani Fleurier. There you go, I’ve solved it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by earlofsodbury
Oh my! Where have you been all my life?
I’ve always felt that wearing vintage or neo-vintage, or anything that’s no longer made and in the shop window basically, creates a bit of distance from the materialism of owning an expensive watch. There’s a huge gap between wearing something that’s sold as luxury right now, and something that was luxurious in the mid-70s. A watch that feels like nostalgia for a luxurious dream from another era, that contrasts with our own, bringing out the flavour. Of course this intoxicating nostalgia has heavily influenced modern designs and reissues, and the choice to wear mechanical watches at all. But on the whole modern retro watches still end up feeling modern. At the very least, genuinely older watches and designs, perhaps worn in over time, look like ‘this old thing I’ve had forever’, and less like showy consumerism. So I don’t think the answer needs to be cheap brands or tool watches, it could just be old luxury that’s had time to mellow with age. Whether this makes those watches less bourgeois I don’t know, it depends on how the French would understand the term, but the right choice can slightly sidestep the issue of value and status and approach it from an angle, playing with the aesthetics of luxury, without being consumed by consumerism.
Indeed, derived from (Lord) Jopling's dismissal of Michael Heseltine, eagerly repeated by Alan Clark in his Diaries.Quote:
Originally Posted by gerrudd
Excluding the DW5600 and Apple Watch by dint of the OP's rules, both of which I believe would otherwise be contenders, I think any old analogue Citizen or Seiko would do. Perhaps a Timex or Bulova (pre-Citizen) for an American, or Accurist for a Brit.
Can't be new though - as Heseltine found out and the bourgeoisie by definition fail to grasp, it is not possible to buy respectability.
TT
Swatch, at least the original ones. Although they went all bourgeois by saving the Swiss watch industry.
I was about to say a speedmaster back in the day. But then looked up bourgeois and realised it purely pertains to the middle class. Therefore my initial thought is wrong based on senior engineers etc might have liked them ( sort of middle class )
Based on this Timex , Patek , Vacheron are not Bourgeois. I’ve a slight preference for Vacheron over Timex. Other views are welcome
Anything by Giovanni Francesco Zarbula likely qualifies.
Exactly what I thought, love it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornholio
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As to your final point, surely it is possible to buy at the very least the trappings, for doesn't a title confer respectability that seems the implication in the minds of many... and such can certainly, are regularly bought in GB.:winkskull::playful:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo Tokei
The trappings yes. It is said there are entire industries providing for such desires. Even online fora for those with a peculiar interest. But these purchases of watches, clothes, cars, fake titles or just a better address in a nicer part of town merely telegraph aspiration.
And aspiration, when it involves only raising your personal brand, is the true branding of the bourgeoisie. To remain in Heseltine-era politics, and to mangle a Thatcher quote, class is like being a Lady - if you have to tell people you are, you are not.
I'd suggest a Chairman Mao waving watch.
https://www.fratellowatches.com/cdn-...ads//Mao-2.jpg
https://www.fratellowatches.com/the-...ng-watch/#gref
Like a waving watch complication, I have the Gene Autry 6-shooter.
https://youtu.be/VtdyH7aTfoY?si=7HN1_-KKFgnPAwMi
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new money = self madeQuote:
Originally Posted by Sinnlover
old money =inherited wealth
I've never understood why new money was seen as an insult.
It's because people never think about the middle ground. Old money was always seen as those who were so used to having money that they purchased goods that most people were never jealous of. Goods that didn't really have 'labels' but were top quality never the less. New money is seen as the footballer / influencer etc. Those who have made their own money but never appear to have worked for it or deserve it, have people around them all the time telling them how great they are and seem to shove their wealth in other peoples faces hence there's a jealousy. The general public forget about those business people in the middle ground who work hard, make their own money, usually employ other people and probably buy good quality goods, may be even labels but have known hard times and therefore are reasonably subtle about what they own.
By adopting the golden mean you avoid the poverty of a hovel and the envy of a palace.
Seems to me the bourgeois are despised by the poor and rich alike because of their aspiration and pretentious adornment.
Cheap money since 2008 enabled the aspirants to behave like self made men or inheritants and borrow to fund a 'new money' lifestyle.
Rolex and other luxury brands have showered football and other sports with 'brand life' and here we are
Marcello C.
Sekonda?
haha gets my vote!Quote:
Originally Posted by neuman356
Where I'm currently sat, new money is generally flash, often ''on tick'', and at least part funded by the black economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagletower
Are you in Spain mate?:wink-new:Quote:
Originally Posted by number2
My experience is quite the difference. New money, self made tend to be careful with money- old money tends to ponce off parents and is more frivolous as they don't need to be careful for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by number2