Rolex Daytona 6265 on Subdial - service dial

Subdial just listed this silver dial Daytona 6265 this morning.

While it looks to be a lovely example and full set, the dial appears to be a later ‘Small Red’ service replacement.

This isn’t uncommon, but the service dial was not mentioned in the description, and not reflected by the asking price of £79,000.

Here’s an image of the watch.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...541da53d10.jpg


And here’s a useful reference image of the ‘Big Red’ dial vs ‘Small Red’, borrowed from an article here.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f75234712.jpeg


And here's an example of a correct silver Big Red from a similar era

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...afb3a55f34.jpg

I’m unsure if Subdial is aware of the issue. If so, my personal opinion is that the service dial should be explicitly mentioned, and that the price should be many 1000s less.

Otherwise, the potential buyer could get really burned..

Interestingly, it is also mentioned that the watch just returned from a Rolex Atelier Service… I seriously hope the dial wasn’t replaced then, as that would be one hell of an expensive service… (if the original was not returned to the owner).

Agree with everything you say, but if you were in the market for an £80k Big Red would you even consider buying from Subdial, WF etc etc.

You see plenty of early to mid 90s 16520 listed around with Swiss Made dials, which are clearly service replacements as they should be tritium, but it very rarely says so and these are watches in the mid £20k+ point upwards.

Like you, I would spend hours pouring over various reference documents examining every font and serif etc, maybe people with deep pockets don’t care so much.

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Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner

Agree with everything you say, but if you were in the market for an £80k Big Red would you even consider buying from Subdial, WF etc etc.

You see plenty of early to mid 90s 16520 listed around with Swiss Made dials, which are clearly service replacements as they should be tritium, but it very rarely says so and these are watches in the mid £20k+ point upwards.

Like you, I would spend hours pouring over various reference documents examining every font and serif etc, maybe people with deep pockets don’t care so much.

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Fair enough... just thought it'd be a shame if someone decided to buy a 4 digit Daytona instead of a hyped Patek for that sort of money and ended up losing thousands. It's still a lovely watch and in fact could have been a cheaper option for someone to enjoy a 6265 if priced well

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Originally Posted by tommyzzj

Fair enough... just thought it'd be a shame if someone decided to buy a 4 digit Daytona instead of a hyped Patek for that sort of money and ended up losing thousands. It's still a lovely watch and in fact could have been a cheaper option for someone to enjoy a 6265 if priced well

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I sold my 5512 to Subdial and they listed it and sold it on. The description was pretty awful, didn’t really say anything. It was left to the buyer to decide. Maybe that is the way it works, say nothing, cannot be accused of anything.

Yeah for £80k I'd be avoiding Subdial et-al, simply due to the huge (tiny) differences that can make or break a vintage Rolex purchase. Saying that, this side of a lottery win it's a problem that I haven't got to worry about I suppose.

This is why TZ is such a great place. As the above poster points out, unless I came into lots of money, lottery, etc., I could never afford the price that's being asked. So thanks to Tommy, if an unknown wealthy great aunt unknown to me, pops her clogs and I was after this particular watch, I would avoid & buy Tommy a pint or three for the heads-up.


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As we all know, vintage is a minefield that requires enormous diligence.

I will never be in this market, but out of shear morbid interest I would be interested to know the loss of value difference value difference, assuming equivalent condition and originality.

I’ve just bought from Subdial, and they were great with a non-vintage watch of moderate value. They must have access to the appropriate expertise though.

D


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I have to say that Subdial descriptions are severely lacking for many watches, it’s not helping their initial good reputation. Their condition report means little to me, for many watches I want to know originality and level of polish or damage/dings etc rather than one word description of “excellent” and generic blurb on what excellent could mean. The cynic in me think it’s a way for them to absolve responsibility if there are any mistakes, or to sell watches at higher value to less knowledgeable/diligent buyer. They were at first seen as a level higher than WF, not anymore I’m afraid. I hope somebody from Subdial can read this and learn from it.

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Originally Posted by helidoc

As we all know, vintage is a minefield that requires enormous diligence.

I will never be in this market, but out of shear morbid interest I would be interested to know the loss of value difference value difference, assuming equivalent condition and originality.

D

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Difficult to answer, but logically serious collectors wanting an original watch wouldn’t buy it - full stop. Think of a DRSD or a Red Sub that has had those dials replaced by a standard white service dial, the cash reduction would need to be in five figures. In the case of a DRSD it could be £20k to £25k.

There may be someone who would buy it if the price was competitive, but are there bargain basement buyers at this level. I would very much doubt it.

I suppose the correct answer is that changing the dial sort of destroys the value of the watch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by helidoc

As we all know, vintage is a minefield that requires enormous diligence.

I will never be in this market, but out of shear morbid interest I would be interested to know the loss of value difference value difference, assuming equivalent condition and originality.

I’ve just bought from Subdial, and they were great with a non-vintage watch of moderate value. They must have access to the appropriate expertise though.

D


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I think Subdial prides itself on pricing competitively - and for most watches (especially modern) they do. The team is also passionate and great to deal with.

However, the 'market prices' for vintage watches have a much bigger spread and as many have said here depend heavily on condition, originality etc. The Subdial team has grown to over 20 employees and they have a few hundred watches in stock, covering all genres from a modern BB58 to haute horology stuff. Perhaps this is just a result of putting vintage watches through the same advertising process as the others.

Re. value, if the watch had an original big red dial, the asking price would perhaps be not too far off (still quite strong, but I suppose someone would pay a big premium for box/papers and the Rolex service etc). If it had been watch only I'd say it should be closer to 60k

The service dial really kills the value, especially for these 4-digit daytonas... my guess would be you can find one at 45-55k with a bit of patience..

This led to my suspicion that they perhaps did not realise that it had a service dial, as they usually price quite competitively. I certainly don't think they are doing it purposefully to con the potential buyer... I sent them a message yesterday re. this but have not heard back yet.

P.s. I could be way off on pricing and we have many experts here who've handled many of these and are much more qualified to answer the question.. (Marc, Jason, Mike etc...)

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Originally Posted by ac11111

I have to say that Subdial descriptions are severely lacking for many watches, it’s not helping their initial good reputation. Their condition report means little to me, for many watches I want to know originality and level of polish or damage/dings etc rather than one word description of “excellent” and generic blurb on what excellent could mean. The cynic in me think it’s a way for them to absolve responsibility if there are any mistakes, or to sell watches at higher value to less knowledgeable/diligent buyer. They were at first seen as a level higher than WF, not anymore I’m afraid. I hope somebody from Subdial can read this and learn from it.

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I think it works for most of the modern stuff, but I agree that perhaps more information should be included for older ones.

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Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner

Difficult to answer, but logically serious collectors wanting an original watch wouldn’t buy it - full stop. Think of a DRSD or a Red Sub that has had those dials replaced by a standard white service dial, the cash reduction would need to be in five figures. In the case of a DRSD it could be £20k to £25k.

There may be someone who would buy it if the price was competitive, but are there bargain basement buyers at this level. I would very much doubt it.

I suppose the correct answer is that changing the dial sort of destroys the value of the watch.

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I agree... I'm sure it will sell at the right price but I think the said price will have to be low.

It would be quite the mistake for a company like Subdial to spent the amount of money that watch costs without spotting a service dial.

I think they’re just not able to provide the level of detail required on four digit Rolex when you take into account the information they supply on their watches in general.

I think I might have seen your 5512 on Subdial a while back Ken but I was hesitant to enquire as the clasp code and end links numbers were blurred out.

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Originally Posted by wileeeeeey

It would be quite the mistake for a company like Subdial to spent the amount of money that watch costs without spotting a service dial.

I think they’re just not able to provide the level of detail required on four digit Rolex when you take into account the information they supply on their watches in general.

I think I might have seen your 5512 on Subdial a while back Ken but I was hesitant to enquire as the clasp code and end links numbers were blurred out.

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There are very few dealers who offer the kind of information that I would want when looking at a 4 digit Watch listing, most can’t even be bothered to say how many links are in the bracelets.

On the 5512 the clasp code was VC for 1978 and the end links were also correct, can’t remember now, does 580 sound right, but I am guessing here from memory.

Where did you get the 1665 from, that is a stunner.

Which is completely ridiculous as it's a Rolex OEM dial supplied and fitted by Rolex. The lunacy of this is unreal.

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Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner

I suppose the correct answer is that changing the dial sort of destroys the value of the watch.

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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli

Which is completely ridiculous as it's a Rolex OEM dial supplied and fitted by Rolex. The lunacy of this is unreal.

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To 99.99% of the population and most people on watch forums you are absolutely right, but to the one guy who is willing to part with £80k it makes all the difference in the world.

Does a classic car that’s had everything replaced hold the same value as one that’s classed as original, I’m guessing not.

It bonkers, totally, but it’s the originality that creates the price tag in the first place.

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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli

Which is completely ridiculous as it's a Rolex OEM dial supplied and fitted by Rolex. The lunacy of this is unreal.

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Equally that has always been the case for the rarer / collectable vintage models. A fuchsia insert alone can be worth 4-5k and it's just a piece of aluminium. I suppose the impact of replacement parts becomes less significant for the 5 digit or modern ones.

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Originally Posted by tommyzzj

Equally that has always been the case for the rarer / collectable vintage models. A fuchsia insert alone can be worth 4-5k and it's just a piece of aluminium. I suppose the impact of replacement parts becomes less significant for the 5 digit or modern ones.

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I remember one of the big guys saying a genuine second hand for a Milsub was over £10k, god only knows what an insert would cost.

Well, that depends on how we look at things. If the classic car had loads of bits replaced but they were all original parts and all fitted by the manufacturer then to me, that would be worth more. Horses for courses as they say.

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Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner

To 99.99% of the population and most people on watch forums you are absolutely right, but to the one guy who is willing to part with £80k it makes all the difference in the world.

Does a classic car that’s had everything replaced hold the same value as one that’s classed as original, I’m guessing not.

It bonkers, totally, but it’s the originality that creates the price tag in the first place.

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I've just had a look at Subdial after reading your comments about lack of description. Not only that but there's spelling and grammatical errors too. Very poor indeed.

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Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner

I remember one of the big guys saying a genuine second hand for a Milsub was over £10k, god only knows what an insert would cost.

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I vaguely remember there was an FT post here some months/years back where the OP offered several modern Rolexes in exchange for a Milsub insert...

I’ve dealt with the SD gang a lot and have always found them very helpful and knowledgeable. Anyone dropping 80k on a vintage Daytona would (or should) speak to the seller first - and I’m sure they’d give you more detail then. That was the case when I’d asked about a FAP Daytona that had a service dial. Can’t say I found all the spelling errors?!

Where do people buy vintage online? Find it’s always hard looking at images to see whether things have been re-lumed, etc.!

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Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner

There are very few dealers who offer the kind of information that I would want when looking at a 4 digit Watch listing, most can’t even be bothered to say how many links are in the bracelets.

On the 5512 the clasp code was VC for 1978 and the end links were also correct, can’t remember now, does 580 sound right, but I am guessing here from memory.

Where did you get the 1665 from, that is a stunner.

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I got the 1665 from watches of distinction. Finally got the service plexi off and a True Dome on but I’m wondering if I should correct my mistake and get a NOS plexi instead. Problem with that though is the lack of trust and high chance of a fake plexi.

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Originally Posted by wileeeeeey

I got the 1665 from watches of distinction. Finally got the service plexi off and a True Dome on but I’m wondering if I should correct my mistake and get a NOS plexi instead. Problem with that though is the lack of trust and high chance of a fake plexi.

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You certainly have to be careful buying a NOS crystal. I saw this:

https://www.chrono24.co.uk/rolex/gla..._rKYSqt&pos=27

Certainly not cheap, but I paid over £400 for a superdome crystal for a DRSD 8 years ago, so that is probably the going rate.

In addition, watch makers and repairers will tell you that a NOS plexiglass crystal nearly 50 years old could be prone to cracking and they would probably advise you to use a modern aftermarket crystal that looks the same and probably costs £20 to £30.

At the end of the day, once on the watch who can tell the difference. I agree 100% that the watch has to have a superdome crystal, but which one is really up to you.

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Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner

You certainly have to be careful buying a NOS crystal. I saw this:

https://www.chrono24.co.uk/rolex/gla..._rKYSqt&pos=27

Certainly not cheap, but I paid over £400 for a superdome crystal for a DRSD 8 years ago, so that is probably the going rate.

In addition, watch makers and repairers will tell you that a NOS plexiglass crystal nearly 50 years old could be prone to cracking and they would probably advise you to use a modern aftermarket crystal that looks the same and probably costs £20 to £30.

At the end of the day, once on the watch who can tell the difference. I agree 100% that the watch has to have a superdome crystal, but which one is really up to you.

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I think True Domes are fantastic for this


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Originally Posted by tommyzzj

I vaguely remember there was an FT post here some months/years back where the OP offered several modern Rolexes in exchange for a Milsub insert...

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Not even a nibble…

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Originally Posted by wileeeeeey

I got the 1665 from watches of distinction. Finally got the service plexi off and a True Dome on but I’m wondering if I should correct my mistake and get a NOS plexi instead. Problem with that though is the lack of trust and high chance of a fake plexi.

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I wouldn't. NOS domes may well have weaknesses and a propensity to crack - you're much better off as you are.

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Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner

To 99.99% of the population and most people on watch forums you are absolutely right, but to the one guy who is willing to part with £80k it makes all the difference in the world.

Does a classic car that’s had everything replaced hold the same value as one that’s classed as original, I’m guessing not.

It bonkers, totally, but it’s the originality that creates the price tag in the first place.

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https://media2.giphy.com/media/l4pT1...nB3G/giphy.gif

I’ll get my broom.


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