Two "Frog's Foot" dial Explorers from the same era, but...

I've just been offered a Rolex Explorer 1 (please someone, take the bait....), model 1016.

It's very useful on these occasions if one has a good comparison watch. So, I found in the safes another with the same "frog's foot" dial and a very close case number :

https://i.imgur.com/vjHs9ej.jpg

As the cases of these watches were made within weeks of one another, this allows for some detailed comparison of contemporary case engravings etc. I also took the chance to compare the amount of wear / polishing to the lugs.

https://i.imgur.com/WvBAg9s.jpg

I've never been one to get overly excited about "unpolished" or "full lug" claims, but this comparison shows just how much metal can be lost with fifty years of wear and perhaps some over-polishing. I do understand how such loss of metal can arise, as it is often tempting to polish out a deep cut or graze in a lug or case-side. "Tooth-pick" lugs generally reduce desirability and value, so it's worth checking even when all the excitement may be in the dial or provenance.

Of course, one cannot hold physical examples of every model from every era, but to assist with correctly identifying the many, many different styles of case numbering I keep a database of model and case numbers with thousands of images like these :

https://i.imgur.com/DV0d6Gp.jpg

It proves increasingly useful now that the illicit re-numbering of cases is such a common phenomenon, but also helps satisfy that a watch is correct when numbers from the same model / era appear identical in style and application.

H

Very interesting. I love Explorers but they are out of my price range. So, as much as I would like to take the bait, I cant ha ha.

Fascinating attention to detail. Loving those forensic photos.

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Sorry for my ignorance, but why 'Frog's Foot'?

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Originally Posted by apm101

Sorry for my ignorance, but why 'Frog's Foot'?

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Rolex applied (and continue to apply) many different styles of coronet through the years.

This generation of Explorer 1016 had a rather splayed version that is reminiscent - one might say - of a frog's foot, after which it has been named :

https://i.imgur.com/mOBF4lR.jpg

Much better images may be found in my unwritten article here : https://www.miltonaires.com/4646/exp...ng-in-progress

The same coronet was also found on the "Disco Dial" Explorer II 1655, as shown here : https://www.miltonaires.com/4543/the...s-foot-variant

In the image above, note the "T" in PERPETUAL, one side of its horizontal top-stroke being much shorter than the other, reminiscent of Andy Dufresne's rock hammer after twenty years in Shawshank.

H

Your knowledge always impresses me, for what its worth I think I would prefer a "dink" or two to a over polished lugs/case.

ps: Excuse my ignorance but have you ever produced a Rolex knowledge book for the public ?

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Rolex applied (and continue to apply) many different styles of coronet through the years.

This generation of Explorer 1016 had a rather splayed version that is reminiscent - one might say - of a frog's foot, after which it has been named :

https://i.imgur.com/mOBF4lR.jpg

Much better images may be found in my unwritten article here : https://www.miltonaires.com/4646/exp...ng-in-progress

The same coronet was also found on the "Disco Dial" Explorer II 1655, as shown here : https://www.miltonaires.com/4543/the...s-foot-variant

In the image above, note the "T" in PERPETUAL, one side of its horizontal top-stroke being much shorter than the other, reminiscent of Andy Dufresne's rock hammer after twenty years in Shawshank.

H

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Is that dial original? The quality looks poor, is that aging?

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Originally Posted by Montello

Is that dial original? The quality looks poor, is that aging?

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The dial is correct.

The printing on these is rather crude if examined closely and in this instance it is further blurred / disturbed by a very worn glass through which I took the snap quickly to answer the earlier question.

Have a look at the much better images in the article to which I liinked.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

The dial is correct.

The printing on these is rather crude if examined closely and in this instance it is further blurred / disturbed by a very worn glass through which I took the snap quickly to answer the earlier question.

Have a look at the much better images in the article to which I liinked.

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Noted, the one on the left seems to have much higher quality printing but the distortion caused by the scratched crystal is quite significant.

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Originally Posted by Slevin Kelevra

Very interesting. I love Explorers but they are out of my price range. So, as much as I would like to take the bait, I cant ha ha.

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You don’t need money to take the bait. You called the watch an Explorer, silly old HM called it an Explorer 1…

:popcorn:

You can see why these things can be faked a lot,to most people you’d think a kid had painted the dial,you really need to know your stuff.


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Originally Posted by mk1974

You can see why these things can be faked a lot,to most people you’d think a kid had painted the dial,you really need to know your stuff.

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We should remember that these dials are now fifty years old. They were never intended to be viewed with a macro lens!

Lifting some of the pictures from my own article, here is a much clearer image of a frog's foot dial :

https://i.imgur.com/dPLYAGx.jpg

Yes, that may look crude under such magnification, but consider it in this second image which better represents how one might see it with the naked eye :

https://i.imgur.com/xMp6s4m.jpg

As for them being faked, I would contend that the more idiosyncratic the printing, the easier it is to determine what is correct. Those repeated, unique imperfections are being missed by the bad guys or too difficult for them to reproduce.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheTigerUK

Your knowledge always impresses me, for what its worth I think I would prefer a "dink" or two to a over polished lugs/case.

ps: Excuse my ignorance but have you ever produced a Rolex knowledge book for the public ?

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That was very kind of you.

Indeed, many vintage collectors would prefer an unrestored watch over one with perfect lines. I had one of my first mil subs given the full Bexley treatment soon after the millennium. It looks crisp and I still love it, but I'm sorry that some of its original scars and character are now lost forever :

https://i.imgur.com/f10A1vl.jpg

While I have plenty of material that might be drawn upon for a book (not least a document of several hundred thousand words detailing the case numbers of almost every Rolex that ever crossed my path), what I lack is the time in which to produce it. I have a family, life and businesses beyond watches, which may save the world from the boring, flawed and arrogant opus I might have created in a parallel life !

Thanks Haywood, very interesting to see those two lugs side-by-side. That’s a lot of material gone.

Thanks Haywood for your article, as they say "Every day is a school day"
Never heard of a "Frogs Foot" dial, but can see what you mean.
Also well worth seeing the difference between the lugs and how they have faired over their respective lives.

Next everyone will be saying that they have never heard of the "Bart Simpson" Dial ;-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Rolex applied (and continue to apply) many different styles of coronet through the years.

This generation of Explorer 1016 had a rather splayed version that is reminiscent - one might say - of a frog's foot, after which it has been named :

https://i.imgur.com/mOBF4lR.jpg

Much better images may be found in my unwritten article here : https://www.miltonaires.com/4646/exp...ng-in-progress

The same coronet was also found on the "Disco Dial" Explorer II 1655, as shown here : https://www.miltonaires.com/4543/the...s-foot-variant

In the image above, note the "T" in PERPETUAL, one side of its horizontal top-stroke being much shorter than the other, reminiscent of Andy Dufresne's rock hammer after twenty years in Shawshank.

H

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Thanks Haywood- as ever the man with the knowledge! Makes me very happy I bought my 16610 from you!

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

That was very kind of you.

Indeed, many vintage collectors would prefer an unrestored watch over one with perfect lines. I had one of my first mil subs given the full Bexley treatment soon after the millennium. It looks crisp and I still love it, but I'm sorry that some of its original scars and character are now lost forever :

https://i.imgur.com/f10A1vl.jpg

While I have plenty of material that might be drawn upon for a book (not least a document of several hundred thousand words detailing the case numbers of almost every Rolex that ever crossed my path), what I lack is the time in which to produce it. I have a family, life and businesses beyond watches, which may save the world from the boring, flawed and arrogant opus I might have created in a parallel life !

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Sir , Long may you enjoy both lives and continue to educate and inform the members who I suspect like me may appear as “ gargoyle’s “ in the comfort of their homes , with your endless revelations & expert knowledge that you contribute to this forum, when you have the time and capacity …. long may it continue and in good health .
A genuine personal thank you to you for your professional , informative and honest contributions whilst pursuing such a hectic professional and domestic schedule .



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Wearing my FF 1016 first time in a while! https://i.imgur.com/sg483Ki.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Snoodles

Wearing my FF 1016 first time in a while! https://i.imgur.com/sg483Ki.jpeg

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Lugs look in good nick, Vince. I will now go to have a look at mine


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great informative post thank you. ive never fully appreciated what people mean by 'fat/thin lugs'

As stated above , as an Explorer owner I find this really interesting. I too like many others didn’t appreciate the full effect of over-polishing.

Steve

Apologies for the deviation from original thread. On a job today one of the guys was talking to the client, the conversation turned to watches and he popped indoors and produced this. Rather a nice surprise (assuming its genuine?) Intended to post in reply to @ Haywood_Milton earlier photo but made a mess of the quote, so apologies if this seems random

https://i.imgur.com/PUWQC0u.jpg

There are some things I don't like at all about that watch. Did he claim it was all correct ?

https://i.imgur.com/2hR9I7x.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rBReMqy.jpg

Bits we can see : hmmmmmmm.

I wonder about the bits we can't.

Even I can tell the insert is wrong and the hands are too long and the wrong shape.

Rather a random snider to have. Usually a modern sub or good/steel dj

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

There are some things I don't like at all about that watch. Did he claim it was all correct ?

https://i.imgur.com/2hR9I7x.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rBReMqy.jpg

Bits we can see : hmmmmmmm.

I wonder about the bits we can't.

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I havent spoken to the guy direct, the team sent me the picture. He claims / believes it is correct, i have a photo of the back aswell i can post if you think its ok to do so?

Yes, please post a picture of the case-back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Yes, please post a picture of the case-back.

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Haywood, post an immaculate 5513 up on your website please. Weeks of checking daily are giving me RSI.

https://imgur.com/a/46UHSAN
Having trouble posting the image from my phone, but will post from PC tomorrow if this doesn't work

Deleted

Hopefully this has workedhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ce3d967eb6.jpg

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I fear it is a cobbling together of parts (significantly incorrect) at best.

Thanks Haywood, I appreciate your time. Can I ask is it a complete fake, or does it have some genuine features? I will ask the team for more information on the guys story, for my own curiosity

I don't think you're going to find much is right with that one, but some individual components might be.