Will Paula Venells ever be held accountable?

[BillyCasper]

Unfortunately, I only caught the last part. Did I hear correctly that Fujitsu accessed and edited the live master data directly? And Fujitsu has just received contracts from HMRC and FCO?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[adrianw]

Unfortunately, I only caught the last part. Did I hear correctly that Fujitsu accessed and edited the live master data directly? And Fujitsu has just received contracts from HMRC and FCO?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It’s worse than that, they remote accessed the sub post offices accounts, edited them and the Post office kept it secret, this in itself makes the prosecutions unsafe and is perjury, yet they are getting away with it.

[unclealec]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but has the possibility of gross negligence manslaughter charges been considered?

[brigant]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but has the possibility of gross negligence manslaughter charges been considered?

I watched this tonight with my brother in law who is a legal beagle. He reckons perverting the course of justice should be brought against all involved.

[brigant]

Unfortunately, I only caught the last part. Did I hear correctly that Fujitsu accessed and edited the live master data directly? And Fujitsu has just received contracts from HMRC and FCO?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There are a few large organisations who always get the government contracts, Fujitsu is one of them.

I worked in I.T. for 40 years and never came across a system where data ( and programs) couldn't be manipulated by those in the know.

[markrlondon]

I’ve been aware of this for years, every time it gets another airing it makes my blood boil that those who covered this up and allowed people to be prosecuted and imprisoned when they must have known they were not guilty is a disgrace and the fact they have not been prosecuted for perpetuating this miscarriage of justice just stinks of the elite protecting their own.

There are a few large organisations who always get the government contracts, Fujitsu is one of them.

further evidence of the corrupt elite.

I think it's an error to focus on "the elite". This probably suits 'them'. Why is it a mistake? Because (a) someone else will often think that you are in "the elite" if you have some privilege (even legitimately earned) that they do not have and (b) because I feel it misses the more fundamental point.

As I wrote previously, this sort of thing is about the status quo and maintenance of it. There are beneficiaries of the status quo, what or who are commonly called "the elite" or "the ruling classes" (e.g. Paula Venells, Fujitsu, in this particular context), but it is the status quo itself that is always being protected. Why? Because it must be so to sustain and extend the system as a whole.

The system becomes an entity in its own right with its own life. "The elite", however you define that group at any one time, may be the beneficiaries of the status quo but the status quo goes on.

Now here's the real problem: The status quo is not just sustained by "the elite" or by the "ruling classes". It's us. All of us.

For example, if you vote, you sustain it. It doesn't matter which party you vote for or even if you spoil your ballot; you are upholding the status quo. If you pay tax you are upholding the status quo. If you make use of a tax loophole, big or small, you are upholding the status quo (anything from an ISA to being Amazon). Watching the BBC is (passively) upholding the status quo. And so on. Your daily life is almost certainly part and parcel of the status quo.

Now, high-ranking members of the bureaucracy of the status quo, people like Paula Venells, can be turned on by the forces and bureaucracy of the status quo but a tipping point has to be reached for that to happen. That tipping point is when continuing to ignore them becomes more damaging to the sustenance and continuation of the status quo than acting. Has that point been reached? I doubt it, although Panorama might (or might not) help.

[Montello]

I think it's an error to focus on "the elite". This probably suits 'them'. Why is it a mistake? Because (a) someone else will often think that you are in "the elite" if you have some privilege (even legitimately earned) that they do not have and (b) because I feel it misses the more fundamental point.

As I wrote previously, this sort of thing is about the status quo and maintenance of it. There are beneficiaries of the status quo, what or who are commonly called "the elite" or "the ruling classes" (e.g. Paula Venells, Fujitsu, in this particular context), but it is the status quo itself that is always being protected. Why? Because it must be so to sustain and extend the system as a whole.

The system becomes an entity in its own right with its own life. "The elite", however you define that group at any one time, may be the beneficiaries of the status quo but the status quo goes on.

Now here's the real problem: The status quo is not just sustained by "the elite" or by the "ruling classes". It's us. All of us.

For example, if you vote, you sustain it. It doesn't matter which party you vote for or even if you spoil your ballot; you are upholding the status quo. If you pay tax you are upholding the status quo. If you make use of a tax loophole, big or small, you are upholding the status quo (anything from an ISA to being Amazon). Watching the BBC is (passively) upholding the status quo. And so on. Your daily life is almost certainly part and parcel of the status quo.

Now, high-ranking members of the bureaucracy of the status quo, people like Paula Venells, can be turned on by the forces and bureaucracy of the status quo but a tipping point has to be reached for that to happen. That tipping point is when continuing to ignore them becomes more damaging to the sustenance and continuation of the status quo than acting. Has that point been reached? I doubt it, although Panorama might (or might not) help.

Sorry, but I’m failing to understand your point …

[markrlondon]

Sorry, but I’m failing to understand your point …

That's ok. ;-)

[tango]

There are a few large organisations who always get the government contracts, Fujitsu is one of them.

I worked in I.T. for 40 years and never came across a system where data ( and programs) couldn't be manipulated by those in the know.

Correct and they specialise in messing up said contracts and then receiving more money for allegedly correcting them, though this seldom happens. It's an old boy's and girl's club and it's very well protected.

I know first hand individuals who worked for Fujitsu ( formerly ICL) during this Horizon software rollout and problems were identified very early on and fed-back right up the management chain but were categorically ignored.

Upper management regularly told lower management that it was not about causing problems for those at the top and that they would do well to start playing golf and frequenting pubs with those at the top rather than constantly identifying problems.

It's an absolute disgrace that they could have that kind of attitude with impunity, but sadly that was exactly what the environment was.

My friend who still works for Fujitsu said he cried when he watched the Panorama episode on this travesty.

[number2]

Will Dido Harding? or any of the shower...

I'll leave it there as we're on hallowed G&D ground.

[adrianw]

Correct and they specialise in messing up said contracts and then receiving more money for allegedly correcting them, though this seldom happens. It's an old boy's and girl's club and it's very well protected.

I know first hand individuals who worked for Fujitsu ( formerly ICL) during this Horizon software rollout and problems were identified very early on and fed-back right up the management chain but were categorically ignored.

Upper management regularly told lower management that it was not about causing problems for those at the top and that they would do well to start playing golf and frequenting pubs with those at the top rather than constantly identifying problems.

It's an absolute disgrace that they could have that kind of attitude with impunity, but sadly that was exactly what the environment was.

My friend who still works for Fujitsu said he cried when he watched the Panorama episode on this travesty.

Isn't the lack of whistle blowers half of the problem? lot's of people knew, but did nothing

[Onelasttime]

I also watched the Panorama doc and it made me cry with anger.

At least Paula has God on her side. The poor bastards whose lives she and her corporation ruined, had no one.

No amount of compensation will right the wrong, but some six-figure numbers not starting with a 1 and a slew of criminal prosecutions of management and certain government officials might go some way to softening the blow.

Absolutely shocking scandal.

[Si]

Unfortunately, I only caught the last part. Did I hear correctly that Fujitsu accessed and edited the live master data directly? And Fujitsu has just received contracts from HMRC and FCO?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/...orizon-scandal

The reality is, as Panorama reported, that the government are part and parcel of the whole scandal - there were government representatives at the meetings during which plans were made to ensure Fujitsu would escape unscathed.

Quite an upsetting programme to watch really.

[chrisb]

I'm struggling to understand how PV's predecessor, one Adam Crozier, seems to have escaped any criticism.
He instigated the whole shebang, and was in post until 2010.

[Brian]

I'm struggling to understand how PV's predecessor, one Adam Crozier, seems to have escaped any criticism.
He instigated the whole shebang, and was in post until 2010.

I'm with you on that......and lets not forget Alan Leighton - hard man.



B

[bobbee]

The Horizon IT system, developed and distributed by Fujitsu Europe who are known for developing and distributing faulty kit...

https://www.theregister.com/2002/09/...abby_handling/

Hmmm, VP of Fujitsu Adam Harris...WUS members surely remember him...

[jon8oy]

Sure I read somewhere that they will all be taxed on whatever compensation they receive, which if true is an absolute outrage to add to the long string of injustices faced so far.

Sent from my LE2123 using Tapatalk

[Rodder]

Sure I read somewhere that they will all be taxed on whatever compensation they receive, which if true is an absolute outrage to add to the long string of injustices faced so far.

Sent from my LE2123 using Tapatalk

Also, surely compensation is what’s added to what they have lost. Meaning that aren’t financially don’t lose out is just a starting point. Then compensation needs to be added for pain, loss of reputation, damaged mental health and for some time in jail.

She should be going to jail.

[Montello]

Also, surely compensation is what’s added to what they have lost. Meaning that aren’t financially don’t lose out is just a starting point. Then compensation needs to be added for pain, loss of reputation, damaged mental health and for some time in jail.

She should be going to jail.

I can’t even begin to fathom how awful it must have been to have your business and reputation trashed by this debacle.

The compensation would have to go far beyond the financial loss.

How do you compensate someone for decades of reputation damage?

[TheTigerUK]

I would think it nigh on impossible to put a financial figure on it, the anguish, stress, loss of reputation, loss of "normal" life, frustration, ANGER etc etc etc and she got a medal, at the very least she should have the medal and any pension benefits taken from her for starters (IMO).

[stefmcd]

I would think it nigh on impossible to put a financial figure on it, the anguish, stress, loss of reputation, loss of "normal" life, frustration, ANGER etc etc etc and she got a medal, at the very least she should have the medal and any pension benefits taken from her for starters (IMO).

I'm sure a few lawyers could have a right good go at that figure.

Sent from my Redmi Note 9S using TZ-UK mobile app

[deepreddave]

The more you read about the extent of their knowledge about the shortcomings of the Horizon system and the way they've tried to limit compensation to the bare minimum, the more you realise just how incompetent, uncaring and out of control senior management were.
Prosecutions are required but then that didn't happen when bankers, won't happen with MPs or water company execs so it's not going to happen here.

[Carlton-Browne]

There's a new episode online of the excellent BBC radio account of the Horizon scandal:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001n8h9


Seems the Post Office continue to play the same games. I particularly enjoyed this quote from an eminent barrister working for postmasters, Paul Marshall: "It's doing the same thing exactly in these compensation schemes. The post office is an institution in which mendacity and lack of identifiable principle run through it like a stick of rock."

I can't help thinking to myself - if only we had someone on the forum who, perchance, has an insight into the management culture at the post office that he could share. I wonder if the above quote could help me recall who that might be?

[TheFlyingBanana]

”The post office is an institution in which mendacity and lack of identifiable principle run through it like a stick of rock."

The person you are describing would have to be almost entirely lacking a moral compass to the extent that their only defining characteristic would be self-interest.

This is the sort of person to whom the end always justifies the means, and “winning” is all, regardless of collateral damage to others or society as a whole.

A person actively willing to overlook fundamental dishonesty, corruption and incompetence purely because it suited their own selfishness?

I’m not sure such a person would find TZ to be a place they felt comfortable, because such sociopathic tendencies are an anathema to the generally friendly camaraderie, integrity and code of honour by which virtually all members of this esteemed forum operate.

[number2]

But but Corbyn...

[Rev-O]

Like Vennells I'm an Anglican priest. It's not a particularly well-paid job and it comes with a lot of trust including handling uncounted cash. If I was so much as suspected of dipping in to the collection plate, fiddling my expenses or misappropriating fees the powers that be would, quite rightly, suspend me. Were it to be proved that I had stolen funds they, again rightly, would throw the book at me.

But millionaire Vennells has faced no sanctions and even her "apology" was mealy-mouthed and, frankly, pretty shit: "I am truly sorry we were unable to find both a solution and a resolution outside of litigation and for the distress this caused."

I feel the same way about her as honest, hardworking police officers must feel towards bent coppers.

[number2]

Like Vennells I'm an Anglican priest. It's not a particularly well-paid job and it comes with a lot of trust including handling uncounted cash. If I was so much as suspected of dipping in to the collection plate, fiddling my expenses or misappropriating fees the powers that be would, quite rightly, suspend me. Were it to be proved that I had stolen funds they, again rightly, would throw the book at me.

But millionaire Vennells has faced no sanctions and even her "apology" was mealy-mouthed and, frankly, pretty shit: "I am truly sorry we were unable to find both a solution and a resolution outside of litigation and for the distress this caused."

I feel the same way about her as honest, hardworking police officers must feel towards bent coppers.

Matey empty your inbox...

n2.

[Rev-O]

Matey empty your inbox...

n2.

DONE!

[TheFlyingBanana]

And still it rumbles on, and still absolutely nobody has been held accountable for this disgrace:

Post Office scandal: 'I lost absolutely everything' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66221054

[Montello]

DONE!

If the Anglican Church had any shred of decency and moral compass they’d boot her out …

[EBB21]

What a disgusting human being! Signed.

[IAmATeaf]

Great article by Marina, now if only others would read it and take note.

I really don’t understand why some of the cover uppers and guilty parties aren’t being pursued?

[ernestrome]

Great article by Marina, now if only others would read it and take note.

I really don’t understand why some of the cover uppers and guilty parties aren’t being pursued?

The establishment?

[adrianw]

Great article by Marina, now if only others would read it and take note.

I really don’t understand why some of the cover uppers and guilty parties aren’t being pursued?

Because they are in the club

[noTAGlove]

Episodes 13-16 recently released of the The Great Post Office Trial discussing the details of the public inquiry recently released on BBC Sounds.

As per usual it beggars belief. Seems to indicate that the police are investigating for potential criminal prosecution. This time not the sub Postmasters

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0...n=share-mobile

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0...n=share-mobile

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0...n=share-mobile

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0...n=share-mobile

[BillyCasper]

The Post Office investigates and prosecutes crime. Are these private prosecutions or does the PO have Police powers? Why wasn’t this handled by the Police and CPS, even at the behest of the defendants, to provide a degree of independence?

Strikes me as an absolute abuse of power and lack of independence that must be stopped.

Fujitsu recently had the Horizon contract extended for another two years and still gets new business from HMG.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[PickleB]

The Post Office investigates and prosecutes crime. Are these private prosecutions or does the PO have Police powers? Why wasn’t this handled by the Police and CPS, even at the behest of the defendants, to provide a degree of independence?

Strikes me as an absolute abuse of power and lack of independence that must be stopped.

Fujitsu recently had the Horizon contract extended for another two years and still gets new business from HMG.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Good question. Wiki is your friend...Court Cases.

[BillyCasper]

Good question. Wiki is your friend...Court Cases.

Thanks, if I read correctly, a government owned public body bringing private prosecutions in England but public prosecutions in Scotland and NI.

PO - falsely claimed victim, investigator and prosecutor. Justice of authoritarian states.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[dkpw]

Thanks, if I read correctly, a government owned public body bringing private prosecutions in England but public prosecutions in Scotland and NI.

PO - falsely claimed victim, investigator and prosecutor. Justice of authoritarian states.

I think in this case, the PO conducting its own prosecutions was simply the continuation of an historic situation. Before the CPS was founded in 1986, each police force had its own prosecutions unit, for example in London, the Met Police Solicitor's. Certain other government departments and bodies used to have their own units and some still do, I think this applies to HMRC, Customs & Excise and latterly the SFO.

None of that excuses for one moment the egregious abuse of power the PO have clearly exercised, nor the largardly manner in which they have compensated those they abused.

So yes, signed and shared!

[davida]

Signed and shared


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[monogroover]

She was an Anglican priest? Signed!

[P9CLY]

Signed & shared.

BUT I'd be very surprised if it will have the result all the people want it to have happen.

I hope I'm very wrong.

[Templogin]

Signed & shared.

BUT I'd be very surprised if it will have the result all the people want it to have happen.

I hope I'm very wrong.

Agreed, signed nonetheless.

[Bonny Marco]

Signed as well.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[BillyCasper]

Reckon PV is watching tonight’s episode?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Franky Four Fingers]

Reckon PV is watching tonight’s episode?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Lets fing hope so!

[Maris]

Lets fing hope so!

I somehow doubt she gives a sh**.

[number2]

I somehow doubt she gives a sh**.

Ditto Dildo Harding.

[PickleB]

ICYMI...the Post Office Scandal website.

The older version is still archived online...www.postofficetrial.com

[BillyCasper]

Nadhim Zahawi rehabilitating his reputation?

No chance I’ll be voting for the LibDems now. I’ve tended to for tactical voting reasons, even though our MP is dreadful. Ed Davey was the responsible minister at the time and did nothing, wasn’t interested. Always thought he was an arse.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk