Unfortunately, I only caught the last part. Did I hear correctly that Fujitsu accessed and edited the live master data directly? And Fujitsu has just received contracts from HMRC and FCO?
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Unfortunately, I only caught the last part. Did I hear correctly that Fujitsu accessed and edited the live master data directly? And Fujitsu has just received contracts from HMRC and FCO?
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Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but has the possibility of gross negligence manslaughter charges been considered?
I think it's an error to focus on "the elite". This probably suits 'them'. Why is it a mistake? Because (a) someone else will often think that you are in "the elite" if you have some privilege (even legitimately earned) that they do not have and (b) because I feel it misses the more fundamental point.
As I wrote previously, this sort of thing is about the status quo and maintenance of it. There are beneficiaries of the status quo, what or who are commonly called "the elite" or "the ruling classes" (e.g. Paula Venells, Fujitsu, in this particular context), but it is the status quo itself that is always being protected. Why? Because it must be so to sustain and extend the system as a whole.
The system becomes an entity in its own right with its own life. "The elite", however you define that group at any one time, may be the beneficiaries of the status quo but the status quo goes on.
Now here's the real problem: The status quo is not just sustained by "the elite" or by the "ruling classes". It's us. All of us.
For example, if you vote, you sustain it. It doesn't matter which party you vote for or even if you spoil your ballot; you are upholding the status quo. If you pay tax you are upholding the status quo. If you make use of a tax loophole, big or small, you are upholding the status quo (anything from an ISA to being Amazon). Watching the BBC is (passively) upholding the status quo. And so on. Your daily life is almost certainly part and parcel of the status quo.
Now, high-ranking members of the bureaucracy of the status quo, people like Paula Venells, can be turned on by the forces and bureaucracy of the status quo but a tipping point has to be reached for that to happen. That tipping point is when continuing to ignore them becomes more damaging to the sustenance and continuation of the status quo than acting. Has that point been reached? I doubt it, although Panorama might (or might not) help.
Correct and they specialise in messing up said contracts and then receiving more money for allegedly correcting them, though this seldom happens. It's an old boy's and girl's club and it's very well protected.
I know first hand individuals who worked for Fujitsu ( formerly ICL) during this Horizon software rollout and problems were identified very early on and fed-back right up the management chain but were categorically ignored.
Upper management regularly told lower management that it was not about causing problems for those at the top and that they would do well to start playing golf and frequenting pubs with those at the top rather than constantly identifying problems.
It's an absolute disgrace that they could have that kind of attitude with impunity, but sadly that was exactly what the environment was.
My friend who still works for Fujitsu said he cried when he watched the Panorama episode on this travesty.
Last edited by tango; 28th April 2022 at 11:05.
Will Dido Harding? or any of the shower...
I'll leave it there as we're on hallowed G&D ground.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
I also watched the Panorama doc and it made me cry with anger.
At least Paula has God on her side. The poor bastards whose lives she and her corporation ruined, had no one.
No amount of compensation will right the wrong, but some six-figure numbers not starting with a 1 and a slew of criminal prosecutions of management and certain government officials might go some way to softening the blow.
Absolutely shocking scandal.
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/...orizon-scandal
The reality is, as Panorama reported, that the government are part and parcel of the whole scandal - there were government representatives at the meetings during which plans were made to ensure Fujitsu would escape unscathed.
Quite an upsetting programme to watch really.
I'm struggling to understand how PV's predecessor, one Adam Crozier, seems to have escaped any criticism.
He instigated the whole shebang, and was in post until 2010.
The Horizon IT system, developed and distributed by Fujitsu Europe who are known for developing and distributing faulty kit...
https://www.theregister.com/2002/09/...abby_handling/
Hmmm, VP of Fujitsu Adam Harris...WUS members surely remember him...
Sure I read somewhere that they will all be taxed on whatever compensation they receive, which if true is an absolute outrage to add to the long string of injustices faced so far.
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Also, surely compensation is what’s added to what they have lost. Meaning that aren’t financially don’t lose out is just a starting point. Then compensation needs to be added for pain, loss of reputation, damaged mental health and for some time in jail.
She should be going to jail.
I would think it nigh on impossible to put a financial figure on it, the anguish, stress, loss of reputation, loss of "normal" life, frustration, ANGER etc etc etc and she got a medal, at the very least she should have the medal and any pension benefits taken from her for starters (IMO).
I'm sure a few lawyers could have a right good go at that figure.
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The more you read about the extent of their knowledge about the shortcomings of the Horizon system and the way they've tried to limit compensation to the bare minimum, the more you realise just how incompetent, uncaring and out of control senior management were.
Prosecutions are required but then that didn't happen when bankers, won't happen with MPs or water company execs so it's not going to happen here.
There's a new episode online of the excellent BBC radio account of the Horizon scandal:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001n8h9
Seems the Post Office continue to play the same games. I particularly enjoyed this quote from an eminent barrister working for postmasters, Paul Marshall: "It's doing the same thing exactly in these compensation schemes. The post office is an institution in which mendacity and lack of identifiable principle run through it like a stick of rock."
I can't help thinking to myself - if only we had someone on the forum who, perchance, has an insight into the management culture at the post office that he could share. I wonder if the above quote could help me recall who that might be?
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
The person you are describing would have to be almost entirely lacking a moral compass to the extent that their only defining characteristic would be self-interest.
This is the sort of person to whom the end always justifies the means, and “winning” is all, regardless of collateral damage to others or society as a whole.
A person actively willing to overlook fundamental dishonesty, corruption and incompetence purely because it suited their own selfishness?
I’m not sure such a person would find TZ to be a place they felt comfortable, because such sociopathic tendencies are an anathema to the generally friendly camaraderie, integrity and code of honour by which virtually all members of this esteemed forum operate.
So clever my foot fell off.
But but Corbyn...
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Like Vennells I'm an Anglican priest. It's not a particularly well-paid job and it comes with a lot of trust including handling uncounted cash. If I was so much as suspected of dipping in to the collection plate, fiddling my expenses or misappropriating fees the powers that be would, quite rightly, suspend me. Were it to be proved that I had stolen funds they, again rightly, would throw the book at me.
But millionaire Vennells has faced no sanctions and even her "apology" was mealy-mouthed and, frankly, pretty shit: "I am truly sorry we were unable to find both a solution and a resolution outside of litigation and for the distress this caused."
I feel the same way about her as honest, hardworking police officers must feel towards bent coppers.
And still it rumbles on, and still absolutely nobody has been held accountable for this disgrace:
Post Office scandal: 'I lost absolutely everything' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66221054
So clever my foot fell off.
What a disgusting human being! Signed.
Great article by Marina, now if only others would read it and take note.
I really don’t understand why some of the cover uppers and guilty parties aren’t being pursued?
Episodes 13-16 recently released of the The Great Post Office Trial discussing the details of the public inquiry recently released on BBC Sounds.
As per usual it beggars belief. Seems to indicate that the police are investigating for potential criminal prosecution. This time not the sub Postmasters
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0...n=share-mobile
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0...n=share-mobile
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0...n=share-mobile
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0...n=share-mobile
Last edited by noTAGlove; 20th November 2023 at 21:40.
The Post Office investigates and prosecutes crime. Are these private prosecutions or does the PO have Police powers? Why wasn’t this handled by the Police and CPS, even at the behest of the defendants, to provide a degree of independence?
Strikes me as an absolute abuse of power and lack of independence that must be stopped.
Fujitsu recently had the Horizon contract extended for another two years and still gets new business from HMG.
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Last edited by BillyCasper; 2nd January 2024 at 09:25.
Good question. Wiki is your friend...Court Cases.
I think in this case, the PO conducting its own prosecutions was simply the continuation of an historic situation. Before the CPS was founded in 1986, each police force had its own prosecutions unit, for example in London, the Met Police Solicitor's. Certain other government departments and bodies used to have their own units and some still do, I think this applies to HMRC, Customs & Excise and latterly the SFO.
None of that excuses for one moment the egregious abuse of power the PO have clearly exercised, nor the largardly manner in which they have compensated those they abused.
So yes, signed and shared!
David
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Signed and shared
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She was an Anglican priest? Signed!
Signed & shared.
BUT I'd be very surprised if it will have the result all the people want it to have happen.
I hope I'm very wrong.
Signed as well.
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Reckon PV is watching tonight’s episode?
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ICYMI...the Post Office Scandal website.
The older version is still archived online...www.postofficetrial.com
Nadhim Zahawi rehabilitating his reputation?
No chance I’ll be voting for the LibDems now. I’ve tended to for tactical voting reasons, even though our MP is dreadful. Ed Davey was the responsible minister at the time and did nothing, wasn’t interested. Always thought he was an arse.
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