One way street?Originally Posted by gunner
One way street?
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
When driving along many streets in both towns and city's seeing all the cars parked at the roadside with no facility's to charge I would recon huge investment is needed before these type of vehical are attractive to all.
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We’re an all EV household now, and wouldn’t go back to ICE.
We have an ID.3 and Tesla M3 LR, both good cars that meet our needs.
One thing to think about, the Supercharger network is being opened up to non Tesla’s at some point soon, according to Musk anyway.
It would appear to be a gradual process and over time, and seems designed to drive extra revenue as well as potentially expand the network via grants and other manufacturers investment.
The other networks are building fast now as well, Gridserve have taken over the chargers at service areas, and they are building hubs and expanding the connectors to accommodate the growth.
With home charging, EVs make a lot of sense, public charging for longer trips is more expensive, but then so is a coffee from Costa or Starbucks. It’s catering for a different need.
It’s exactly the solution to the problem, charge cars where they park up, including those at the side of the road.
This of course but needs a huge investment chargers at park and rides in lamp posts etc and in the thousands nationwide each with payment facilities its a big ask I recon
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The good thing is it won’t all need to happen overnight, but I’m not playing down the investment required either.
We managed to install cable TV etc to mostly every house, albeit there was the carrot for companies in the form of subscriptions, but perhaps the same could happen for EV charging.
Charging for charging could be App based, there are definitely opportunities as well as challenges.
Have a BMW IX3 due for delivery in November. Also have the A3 tsfie which only does c 35 miles in electric mode only but that’s often enough for the wife. It feels it’s weight under braking but is surprisingly fun and nimble to drive.
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Here’s a question to ponder:
Currently, the Government raises lots of tax revenue from motor fuel, without wishing to debate the wrongs and rights of this policy we all accept it as fact.
If the majority of us convert to electric vehicles, how will the huge shortfall in tax revenue be addressed?
If the Govt are bold enough to announce an intention to ban the sale of diesel and petrol cars by 2030 I think they owe us an answer to this question.
Lets face it, the shortfall will have to be made up somehow to balance the books! The taxing of personal transport has long- standing historical roots going back to the time when cars were a luxury, thesedays it’s far more difficult to justify that policy and taxation is supposed to be set on a fair basis.
Any answers? I’ll be 72 in 2030 and past caring, but it’s an interesting conundrum.
Here’s another one: how do we propose to generate all the additional electricity required to power the vehicles of the future?.........unless the laws of physics have changed we’re going to need a hell of a lot more.
Was talking about this today and my guess is if you have an EV car they’ll tax electricity higher for that purpose. You’ll have to have some kind of smart home meter that will charge accordingly, either that or they’ll lump it on the car as a tax like it used to be
I really would like my next car to be an EV but…
During the winter months I drive little, rarely more than 100 miles a week, have a garage so an EV would be ideal.
However, during the summer months I regularly drive down to north Norfolk. This is a 175 mile trip; I then typically stay there for a week and then drive the 175 miles back home. This pattern is repeated throughout the summer months.
I could get there on a single charge but then I’d be stuffed as there are basically NO charging points within about 25 miles( well one Tesla and one other that zap map reports, but doesn’t seem to exist).
Until there is wide scale charging available, not just on trunk roads and in cities, it’s not going to be feasible for a lot of people.
You can charge from a three pin plug, there must be plenty where you stay.I really would like my next car to be an EV but…
During the winter months I drive little, rarely more than 100 miles a week, have a garage so an EV would be ideal.
However, during the summer months I regularly drive down to north Norfolk. This is a 175 mile trip; I then typically stay there for a week and then drive the 175 miles back home. This pattern is repeated throughout the summer months.
I could get there on a single charge but then I’d be stuffed as there are basically NO charging points within about 25 miles
Until there is wide scale charging available, not just on trunk roads and in cities, it’s not going to be feasible for a lot of people.
You’ll probably also find that there are far more charge points around where you’re staying than you realise.
Yes, I frequent North Norfolk quite a bit, there are a number of destination charge points at pubs etc, as well as 3 pin options in holiday accommodation etc.
Kings Lynn and the 8 x Instavolts at Necton near Swaffham are the best options.
It could always be better though, and will need to be to be fair.
I agree that the public charging network needs to improve and,to be fair, it’s a hundred times better than it was in 2015.
Most detractors who comment on the charging network seem to forget that the vast majority of charging is done at home and the network is only used for longer journeys.
This is not forgotten just not possible for a lot of folk as mentioned previously drive through some towns city's at night and see the lines of cars on the road.
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Buy a RexI really would like my next car to be an EV but…
During the winter months I drive little, rarely more than 100 miles a week, have a garage so an EV would be ideal.
However, during the summer months I regularly drive down to north Norfolk. This is a 175 mile trip; I then typically stay there for a week and then drive the 175 miles back home. This pattern is repeated throughout the summer months.
I could get there on a single charge but then I’d be stuffed as there are basically NO charging points within about 25 miles
Until there is wide scale charging available, not just on trunk roads and in cities, it’s not going to be feasible for a lot of people.
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Withdrawn in UK so would have to be pre-owned.
Yep
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I live in North Norfolk and only yesterday my wife was moaning how many spaces in our local car park have recently been taken up with electric charge points - I hadn’t noticed them before, must be recently installed but all were empty.I really would like my next car to be an EV but…
During the winter months I drive little, rarely more than 100 miles a week, have a garage so an EV would be ideal.
However, during the summer months I regularly drive down to north Norfolk. This is a 175 mile trip; I then typically stay there for a week and then drive the 175 miles back home. This pattern is repeated throughout the summer months.
I could get there on a single charge but then I’d be stuffed as there are basically NO charging points within about 25 miles
Until there is wide scale charging available, not just on trunk roads and in cities, it’s not going to be feasible for a lot of people.
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I’d be interested to hear where they are?
I’m a Lincs dweller, but frequent North Norfolk quite a bit!
I’m aware of the 8 x Rapid Charge units at Necton/Swaffham, and the odd rapid around the coastal towns, along with Kings Lynn.
Was in Sheringham this morning and noticed that one of the public’s car parks now has a row of 5/6 charging bays. None of which were being used. I think these must be fairly new as I don’t remember seeing them before.
Seems like Norfolk is taking the hint and providing some good charging options. I’ve looked on ZapMap and plenty of people are commenting that they’ve used them.
At 35p per kWh, quite expensive for slower destination chargers, but better than not having the option at all and will encourage owners to town I’m sure.
Seem to be operated by Geniepoint so hopefully will be maintained as well.
I drive a BMW i3 Rex
Cracking car
140-160 electric range
100 mile petrol back up if ever needed
Charge
It up at home for pennies on a three point plug
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I imagine the tax thing will work similar to boat fuel, in fill up you declare a percentage that you use for propulsion, vice heating living etc.
A little off topic but after April next year will you still be able to use pink in your boat?
Was just looking at the exemptions the other day as the fuel cost at work is set to double as we move from pink to full duty diesel.
I would imagine on most construction sites this will cause problems in both cost and security but who knows.
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Do we think that EV is truly here to stay. My biggest stumbling block is the fear that you'd buy one and then in 3/4 years time... The world's moved on and what you have is worthless. Like a minidisc.
Also, the used value of an EV is largely unknown.
I've never explored the option fully; and I've never bought a new car... So my points may be totally invalid, but to me. We've not yet worked out the best alternative to ICE, so plowing money into an EV seems foolish.
It'll be a while until I buy anything but ICE, but I wonder if when that becomes a no deal, if Hydrogen will be the alternative.
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EVs are a dead end.
They won't go away entirely as for people looking for a shopping trolley for low mileage local use can live with them, so long as they have access to a proper car for holidays, day trips, weekends away at the coast or to to see the folks etc - or they live in London.(Sadly, that's where our decision-makers live so we can guarantee some metro-centric stupidity in transport policy).
EVs (even Teslas) are just so compromised compared to proper cars in terms of poor range (and consequent range anxiety), slow rechaging compared to ICE, absence of sufficient charging points, and of course, purchase price - not to mention their very dubious environmental impact due to the evironmental damage done by the materials that go into them, or the questionable ecological footprint of renewable sources of electricity.
There are quite a few articles now by writers who went EV without thinking it through / without an ICE alternative to hand, and it's had a major impact on their lives when it comes to limiting their travel options.
At some point the world will switch to a mix of nuclear and renewables (preferably renewables that are more sustainable than what's in use at the moment - all those tons of steel and concrete, and the many transportation miles involved in their manufacture and setup take an age to pay back), and cars will switch to hydrogen, which behaves much more like petrol and diesel in practical terms. The political push to force carmakers to move away from ICE is forcing them towards EVs at the moment but I can't see that lasting once hydrogen becomes a real proposition. I suspect policymaker awareness of this is the main reason little is being done right now to build EV charging infrastructure.
The best thing buyers can do right now is go on strike - don't buy, and if you must buy, buy only ICE, don't pay the stupid asking prices for EV and don't put up with the nonsense of EVs being worse than proper cars on every concievable measure (including evironmental impact).
Of course you'll always get EV fanboyz, most of whom venture outside the M25 (see above) but they will always be in a minority. The rest of the country does not live like your average Londoner, some of us need to do proper commuting, not necessarily to places where recharing will be easily available.
At the business park in Reading where I used to regularly commute pre-covid, you had to be in before 9 to even get a parking space some days - chances of a decent proportion of these cars being able to recharge before a trip home? Zero. Of course Covid has changed some of the practicalities of that for now but I have a suspicion things will eventually creep back to something closer to what it was before.
I'm planning to retire soon and had intended to buy a new car to do me for the foreseeable, but the diesel Jag XF will be fine for another few years while things become clear. The one thing I absolutely won't do is run off and do something stupid like buy an EV.
Last edited by kk; 11th August 2021 at 21:01.
There’s an awful lot to unpack there, a lot of it very wrong.
People have been saying this about EVs for the 7 years I’ve been driving one, and for the first couple of years I believed them.
You’re not a fan, and that’s fine, but my own experience (and I don’t live in London by the way) is that my latest EV is a full replacement for my last ICE car, and works very well for me for trips all over the UK for both work and pleasure. I drive 25k miles a year, my wife a bit less, I have a full time job and a family with all the pulls on my time that entails. I don’t eat lentils either.
If EVs are a dead end, then I’m afraid to say so are cars in general. We have to move to something even a little more sustainable, more of the same just isn’t going to work.
People have been telling me I’ve ‘brought the wrong car’ for years, but who are they to judge?
What is it about EVs that prickle so many? Don’t like them, don’t get one, it’ll be many years before you can’t buy even a used ICE. I don’t go around telling people that they’re wrong to drive a petrol or diesel car, so what gives?
Clearly you are pretty dug in on the whole EV thing, to the point where you can't admit there are any issues. Actually the issues are pretty significant:
The worst aspect is that they are only a fig leaf in terms of environmental impact (not just Co2 emissions, but other impacts too) when you include both the manufacturing side including (grossly unsustainable) mining of raw materials, battery manufacture and disposal, and electricity generation.
Next is range, where the official figures are simply not worth the paper they are printed on, and motoring journalists collude in this by reporting figures without use of heating, aircon or lights.
Finally, they are also more expensive than normal cars - stupidly so in many cases when you list out their failings in direct comparison, and it takes quite a few years (if ever) for fuel costs to make up the price difference (by which time you have hugely expensive battery packs to replace ...)
Great for virtue signalling though and maybe that's where most of us get irritated.
The whole thing has been rushed into, before proper technology is available to provide like for like replacement for ICE vehicles. Of course people who are invested in it are going claim it's all fine and dandy (with the exception of a few brave journos who have written at length on their regret). But I still maintain, even if ICE is going to disappear, EV is not good enough as a replacement (indeed, compared to ICE, EV has barely improved in 120 years). Hydrogen fuel cells though, once the teething issues can be dealt with, have to be the future.
The biggest impact of the move away from ICE will be on the more poorly paid. My son is a care worker in rural Somerset, he has a 25 mile each way trip and runs a £1000 banger. (I'm looking to get him something a bit better soon). Where's he supposed to get £30k from for a glorified milk float?
The Uk is less than 1% of world carbon emissions (despite being the fifth largest economy) and is already one of the lowest carbon societies in the world. On the global scale, it matters very little what we do from here, and everything about what the US, China and India do - it's all down to geopolitics.
But the only thing less edifying that individual people virtue signalling is countries doing it, eg Macron and Johnson willy waving over banning ICE - frankly a disgrace, cheap, headline-grabbing PR pumped out long before any sensible plan has been put together.
Whilst I agree that the eco credentials of EV aren't quite as black and white as may be portrayed, emissions and responsibility for the environment is something we are all equally responsible for. We can't lay the blame at high emissions countries as we are a consumer society that purchases lots of (frequently unnecessary) goods from these countries and that in itself is helping fuel the issue. I'm not saying EVs are the answer I just wanted to counter the statement that what we do in the UK doesn't matter for the environment as for me at least I think it does
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Any you think that hydrogen is the future despite the huge issues facing it yet refuse to believe the validity of EV cars 15 years down the line?
I take it you’re aware of the huge energy required to extract the hydrogen from water or are we just going to ignore that?
Lets not also forget the huge infrastructure change to get rid of fossils fuels and introduce hydrogen?
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 11th August 2021 at 22:42.
I’m not ‘dug in’ at all, they work just fine for me, and I’ve said already they won’t work for everybody.
I’ve also pointed out in this and the other thread that there are significant issues to overcome, but then that would be the case even if EVs weren’t a thing.
ICE cars are not made out of fairy dust, and nor will Hydrogen cars be. Hydrogen itself requires a huge amount of energy to create, Google steam reforming of natural gas which is how most of it is made as of now.
The fossil fuel infrastructure didn’t spring up overnight either, it had to be built, as will be the electric one.
Your son doesn’t need a £30k EV either to do a 50 mile round trip, but then I think you know that. EVs are getting better and cheaper all the time, and used ones will of course flow down through the market.
Choice is good, you’re not being forced to do anything for a decade or more.
Last edited by Tooks; 11th August 2021 at 22:53.
You are bigweb and I claim my £5.00
Crikey kk do you not dig EV’s 🤣🤣🤣
Twelve months in, live in rural Suffolk, just over 12k miles and I could not be happier, it’s a breeze.
Pitch
The biggest single advantage offered by EVs is the improvement in air quality in urban areas, other than that I remain unconvinced that the benefits are significant.
I could easily convert to an EV, I have plenty of parking space for recharging, most of my journeys are local and for pleasure rather than work/ commuting, but I’ve no intention to change until I have to. I do around 3000 miles pa and I don’t really care about fuel costs or road tax, I enjoy the car I own and I’ll continue to do so.
I do care about local air quality because we can influence it, but the CO2/ global warming problem is a much wider issue and apart from giving me a warm feeling there’s no point in personally trying to reduce my carbon footprint.......I'll leave that to the sandal- wearing bean- eating tree-huggers.
I feel that currently EV's are not a problem solved, it's an attempt to address the issue.
For those that drive a Prius you need to do 65000 miles to be totally carbon neutral, but I accept that during those miles you are not directly polluting.
The national charging infrastructure (Tesla aside) is a mixed bag and unreliable - I rarely stop for a coffee for an hour, let alone do this to charge a car.
It is work in progress and I admire early adopters who it works for.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I'd be happy ish to switch to EV for the next car - in a few years time - if they were a lot more affordable, and I do mean a lot. But the major issue for me is the lack of a quick, available and reliable charging infrastructure. We have to park on-road and, whilst we have our 'own' parking spot right outside our home (basically because our neighbours and their visitors all stick to a gentleman's agreement), we are just never going to have our own personal charging point and I think that's crucial for any EV owner.
Unless there is a seismic shift in things, ICE will probably still be going strong for the next twenty years, and likely even longer than that. So it will be ICE again for me - and, at my age, that technology will probably see me out.
Last edited by Mouse; 11th August 2021 at 22:12.
So my 2.5 year old petrol Velar has somehow magically gone up in value over the last 6 months to the point where after 30 months of ownership what a dealer would buy it for would clear the PCP balance, provide the deposit on a new Audi Q4 Etron and I'd save £140 a month in PCP payments. Any reason I shouldn't be biting their hand off?
The current value of the Velar after 2.5 years and 13k miles is 82% of what I paid for it new. How on earth is that even possible?!!? Crazy times
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Last edited by ryanb741; 11th August 2021 at 22:08.
Get biting !
Have gone for one. A fair bit of space in them especially for kids seats in the back. Fair bit cheaper than the other Audi EV and they do not seem to be leaving much out of the package.
Depends on the delivery date of the Audi, Ryan.
Do you have charging at home?
So I could get one already in a showroom next month, else around 6 months if built to spec.
I was paying £250 a month to park in our underground parking at home (which has charging) but I moved the car to the flats next door where a lady charges me £90 a month instead. No charging there as it is overground but in Kingston there are lots of public chargers with high charge speeds (40 mins or so for a full charge) so I figured every couple of weeks or so I could use one of those
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If the boot is big enough and you/the wife have done a test drive and seem happy I'd go for it personally. Worse case you just swap the parking and pay the extra £160 which presumably includes charging.
No idea if dealers do this but I'd try get the one 6 months out with a binding trade in price for yours and see if prices go up further in that time and sell it elsewhere before/after collection if they do.
Alternatively just take the one in the dealership and move on, one less thing to mentally juggle.
Cheers and yes the dealers do have binding trade in prices which works well actually as it would be an additional 6 months paid off the PCP.
I will try it out - it just seems to be the most no brainer model for what we need and is a lot cheaper than I was expecting (not that they are giving them away but the price is much lower than the larger e-tron SUV)
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Out of interest, are there any members on here who’ve had an EV and chosen to go back to ICE?
It’s all well and good all the naysayers sprouting on about how bad it is but real world views from those who’ve done it and gone back to ICE would be perhaps more relevant.
Not had an EV but just looking at changing my car and in the last two weeks have been to many garages and driven many different vehicles both ev and ice.
I like new things and change unlike a lot of older people and couldn't find much to fault with ev's and i really liked the Kia e-Niro which i think was a what car winner in 2019.
However the problem for a private buyer is the cost...a hybrid version is over 3k cheaper and has much more kit as standard so there is no benefit for a private buyer in running costs.
In terms of the environment we could discuss that all day long but unless you give up flying or importing cheap tatt from China or the big issue that no one talks about is human population then for most people a choice between ev or ice is just a lifestyle choice.
I am glad there is a choice and i think ev's and charging issues will improve but i will wait a few years before i consider buying one.
Living in Sunny San Diego, I wonder if built-in auto solar panels will ever become practical...
Musk answered this on a recent podcast. On the car itself, the answer is no. Not enough area. On a property to which the car is temporarily attached to charge, yes.Living in Sunny San Diego, I wonder if built-in auto solar panels will ever become practical...
I guess for the maker it would be a simple case of cost V benefit. I’ve got panels on my roof that produce 300w each, lovely flat panels which obviously aren’t designed for that. Any panel would have to be integrated into the strength of the car and plumbed in. Guessing it would add extra weight so would that be any benefit if it were only producing 300-400w? I could perhaps understand it if they used it to top up the small vehicle battery but again it’s a huge expense for such a small return.Living in Sunny San Diego, I wonder if built-in auto solar panels will ever become practical...
Im sure there’ll be better but all the EVs I’ve driven have returned no more than around 3 miles per KW. With some simple maths using 300w panel and 10 hrs of perfect sunlight you'd get around 9 extra miles.
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 13th August 2021 at 08:36.
If they can get it cheap and light enough, it’s a free nine or ten miles a day as long as you don’t park it undercover. Even when you’re driving you’re adding a little back and if you’re car is parked up for a couple of weeks, there could be a reasonable range added to the battery.
A solar roof isn’t actually going to be much different to a panoramic sunroof so it’s potentially doable.
Indeed, this is the big one, the sheer numbers of us.
I hope we can make enough of a difference. But I'm very dubious when I read comments on here such as "I regularly have to travel 200 miles plus", do you? Really?
I'm not picking on anyone or preaching because I am just as guilty as I own and enjoy a totally unnecessary diesel campervan, so I'm definitely just as much a part of the problem. But while our attitudes like this persist, and of course our population continues to grow at this rate, any small personal changes we make, while good intentioned and of course better than nothing, will sadly not keep up. Any meaningful change requires massive governmental intervention, worldwide, and even that may not be enough given the human population of the earth. But then it wouldn't happen in any remotely unified way anyway so pretty much a moot point I suppose.
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It’s a good idea, at ten miles worth of electricity per day (or say half of that on average), that’s nearly 2000 free miles a year for every car. Possibly more if you can utilise the bonnet too.
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