Reply With QuoteIf he is genuinely trying to make it right it would be the right thing to give him a chance.
I was hoping if anyone can offer any legal stance on a vehicle I have recently bought and where my rights stand . It would also be appreciated if anyone has some knowledge on cars they can decipher as I am not mechanically minded .
I purchased it on 22nd of February. It was sold as a car with full service history , two owners and 69k miles on the clock and had an MOT until November this year.
The seller was on marketplace and was local to me from a garage he worked at and he lives above with his wife and children . He holds favourable reviews all positive reviews with no negative feedback or comments.
I have rode the car sparingly just a few miles every other day for work which is very local and my children to school. There have been no issues up until today.
Today , it lost power . The management dash informed me it was overheating.
I pulled over as soon as safe and had my neighbour who works for the RAC come and plug his computer in and diagnose the issue.
He said it was misfiring. It may need a new coil pack and spark plugs .
I called the chap who I bought from and he came down immediately which I felt was prompt and decent with a tow truck to take it away and I explained the issue .
He later called me to inform me there was no water in the car ?
They tried new coils and spark plugs but keeps bringing up the water bottle was bone dry ?
He then later informed me it may be the head gasket or it has burned a valve out due to it being ran warm .
I’ve had it under three weeks . He said he is looking around to find a garage to strip it down to identify if it definitely is the head gasket but none are available for weeks.
Do I have a legal right to ask for a refund?
I can see he is trying to make it right by attempting to fix the issue but wanted to know my rights . I don’t have weeks and weeks as I need to be mobile for work / children .
Google is not really that clear and has varying answers that say one thing then another.
Much appreciated in advance for any advice
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Last edited by bond; 13th March 2023 at 22:38.
If he is genuinely trying to make it right it would be the right thing to give him a chance.
I think the best you could hope for would be a contribution to the repair.Originally Posted by bond
"A private seller does not have the same legal obligations as a car dealer, so refund or repair is a grey area. Here, sold as seen does not have the same application compared to a dealer sale. DAS Law explains (quote): “Selling an unroadworthy car is a criminal offence unless the buyer is fully aware of this fact.”
They also say that the private seller must be sincere when describing the car’s condition."
Car Wow say...
Your rights when buying a used car from a private seller
Buying from a private seller can yield a saving compared to going through a dealer, but if the car has any issues you won’t have as many rights as a customer. Aside from the basic requirements that the seller must have the right to sell the car and that it must be roadworthy, the Sale of Goods Act also stipulates that the car must be as described by the seller.
OP, sorry to hear of your troubles and hope this can be resolved quickly.
Ultimately the replies will depend where you bought it from. In the title you note privately, and in the description you mention “The seller was on marketplace and was local to me from a garage he worked at and he lives above with his wife and children . He holds favourable reviews all positive reviews with no negative feedback or comments.”
This suggests to me, whist you have bought the car privately, ie not as business, you have bought it from a car dealer. If you have bought it from a car dealer, you indeed do have specific legal rights to remediate this. I have never had to go down this route myself, but once your position is clarified, someone will be able to confirm where you stand.
Buying from a private seller, you have no legal comeback.
Sorry to hear the prob
So guessing as it’s less than 3 weeks and driven every other day for work it’s done under 100 miles in that time- that’s nothing
It must have a noticeable water leak
Seems he’s trying to resolve the problem but if it’s lost that much water in those few miles I’d have thought it would have been apparent before
You say that the seller is on marketplace and has good feedback; does he regularly sell cars or us this a one off?
If he’s regularly selling cars then, however he describes himself, he is a dealer. As such you have more legal recourse than if he is just a private individual selling his own car.
The seller is clearly trying to do the right thing so it seems only fair to let him try to get it sorted first.
Edit : Captaincook beat me to it.
This!!
As above. If he's not a dealer (maybe he just works for a garage as a mechanic?) and sold it privately then he's probably already doing more than he needs to in law as there's not much chance you could prove he knew of any pre-existing issues.
If he is a dealer then you have to allow reasonable efforts to repair the car.
I realise that being without a car is inconvenient, but either way, you need to allow time I think.
Thanks all for the kind replies it’s much appreciated.
Private sales what a minefield. Not much in the way of recourse other than the word and good graces of the seller
It’s done probably even less than 100 miles in the last three weeks . There was a moment when the seller took it away and was surprised when he informed me there was no water in the car and it did feel he was aiming that towards my responsibility. But granted he is a mechanic and has a garage and would not of let it leave his ownership other than it running smoothly and at the very least with water in - I fail to see how just over two weeks it’s really something I should of paid weekly special attention towards . He said I should of been checking it weekly . It’s by no means is problem but my father had recently had a second heart attack and I had someone crash into me a week before with my children in hence me looking for another car . I think my mind was preoccupied with looking to check under the bonnet for low water - but surely two weeks of it checking would not of made such a difference especially with nothing indicating otherwise by the vehicle .
I had no indication from the car it was low until the moment it did alert me to when the issue arose which I promptly got back in touch . Not forgetting the chap said any issues please get back in touch .
It just feels like a leverage point to say if you had done a) then b) would not of arose and I would not be in this predicament.
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He sells cars regularly via Facebook marketplace. He may have two,three or up to four at a time . I was not certain this was designated a private seller or dealer really . He sells them at a garage or from a garage where he works and lives . He doesn’t own the garage though from what I gleaned as the owner was leaving when my wife and I went to view the car .
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I haven’t bothered him at all . In fact the opposite. I’ve just communicated over a few messages my usual routine with the car and how it has been - no issues whatsoever up until these arose. He sent me pictures of the empty water bottle and a few things he had someone try like new spark plugs etc - I’ll give him time as you mention as he is trying .
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In that case he’s a dealer and you have the same recourse as if you’d bought it from a garage.
I’m guessing the lack of any water would be the 1st place to look - not the spark plugs
I’ve just checked - he currently has pages of over 50 cars he’s sold and those that are currently for sale . The profile is under his name but I can see they are advertised from the pictures and are sold from outside the garage where I bought mine . So I can safely say he is a dealer .
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OP, if you have roasted it I would try and get my money back, proving he is a dealer might take time, are any of his old listings still on Facebook, maybe get screenshots.
Someone who worked for me had a similar situation with a pseudo dealer on FB, the engine was no good, he kept at it and got a refund, but not until the court date had been set.
Well it was misfiring but I think he is asserting that the root cause may of been the lack of water causing the whole issue . He has not got to the bottom of it yet and has said it needs ‘stripping down’ to see if a head gasket or valve has blown .
What I want to know is if this is my fault ?
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Last edited by bond; 14th March 2023 at 12:13.
He has hundreds of sold items ; cars ranging from thousands to tens of thousands
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I hope it doesn’t come to that - hopefully it won’t if he is a decent bloke and holds a good reputation. I’d like to give him the benefit of fixing it and some time before it gets to considering anything like that
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I would tell him you want a refund, modern engines don’t like being severely overheated, the composition of the cylinder head can change and become soft or cracked, obviously not saying this is the case with yours, but if you can get a refund it isn’t worth the hassle.
But am I entitled to expect a refund in this case ?
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If you can prove he’s a trader he has to give three month’s warranty, as it’s failed within three weeks I would argue for a refund, if it has full history maybe you could contact the last garage that serviced it and see if they had any problems
Thanks , I will do that’s a good idea
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Just noticed the MOT on November 2022 showed the emissions test in particular the engine oil temp check notes temp gauge showed warm engine ?
There was also a fail and repair immediately notice for it on the mot as exhaust emits excessive dense blue smoke during acceleration. This is not something I’ve seen though so they must of fixed that
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Last edited by bond; 14th March 2023 at 12:43.
Take that with a pinch of salt, a dodgy dealer will substitute another car for the emissions testJust noticed the MOT on November 2022 showed the emissions test in particular the engine oil temp check notes temp gauge showed warm engine ?
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That to me is a red flag- blue smoke - burning oil?Just noticed the MOT on November 2022 showed the emissions test in particular the engine oil temp check notes temp gauge showed warm engine ?
There was also a fail and repair immediately notice for it on the mot as exhaust emits excessive dense blue smoke during acceleration. This is not something I’ve seen though so they must of fixed that
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Have a chat with trading standards, I seek to remember that if they deal in more than a set number of cars a year they are automatically classed as a dealer. The number is only a dozen I think.
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As a Franchised dealer of 35 years (retired phew).
I can tell you he's very likely a 'dealer' not unlike those that leave cars for sale by roadside etc.
Was the car previously registered in his or his spouses name ? (I'm guessing not).
Is he selling the cars from a trade premises ? did you collect from those premises ?
If you met the real owner 'registered keeper' then clearly he bought it or borrowed it from them to make a profit.
The reason Facebook etc is used is to pass off being a 'private' as AT requires a declaration of 'Trade or Private' therefore he's keeping under radar for equivalent of SOGA and so as not to pay VAT on profit or have to put a warranty on even for statutory minimum 90 days be that underwritten or self insured.
Trick : ring up and say "I'm ringing about the car for sale" if they say "which one" you have your answer.
As per the fault 'running dry' and the responsibility being shoved your way I think thats a bit rich its not 1960 British Leyland so checking water weekly is a big leap to expect from you and where would it be going after just 100 miles ?
All that said lets not throw him under the bus too soon - he's communicating and being proactive in trying to resolve so go with it up to the point he starts pushing back then that's the time to get more vocal / forceful
However if you really don't want it and you are 100% its a trade sale exercise your statutory rights and request a refund.
Last edited by TKH; 14th March 2023 at 13:08.
On closer looking he’s surpassed a dozen in the last week easily . As I noted his sales of cars run into a hundred this year from a quick glance and scroll down .
Oddly I can not see my car he sold me under the sold listings which he’s kept all the others on the page to show potential customers .
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I’m not sure if it was registered in his name . He had to enter details on the dvla gov. website when the transaction took place .
He definitely sells from outside a premises where he works and lives above the garage as a mechanic and that is where I picked it up from . All his cars running into the hundreds clearly are shown on photos outside this garage or the road I purchased from.
At what point should I discern he is pushing back - for example he will be saying there is nothing he can do or expecting money to fix it ? If so then become vocal about my rights etc ?
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If he starts playing hardball threaten to phone the vat man
Doesn’t the v5 list the previous owner
No, they removed that for data privacy.
That's why private sales (not that this particular instance sounds as if it's "Private" rather than "Trade") are usually cheaper than buying from a trader or main dealer. As a private buyer, you do have the option to engage an independent mechanic (or use the AA, RAC or similar) to inspect the vehicle before you purchase it.
Apart from the pedantic point that the V5C only records the Registered Keeper and not the "owner" of a vehicle, they haven't listed the previous RK's details since GDPR came in.
This stupid decision by those that are supposed to look after us has opened up hundreds of opportunities for car traders to lie and cheat, even the Mercedes main dealer lied to me about my car, claimed it came from Mercedes directly, just out of luck I was having it serviced at a local main dealer, they told me they supplied it new and have always looked after it, the owner traded it with a McLaren dealer, and it went to auction
Given the position here, I would push for a refund. I am 100% sure the car can be fixed but the unknown would always cause me unease.
Overheating can cause damage to the head and even if the head gasket is changed if it is slightly warped it could give up the ghost again in the future long after you could hand back the car.
I'd ask for my money back and let the "dealer" sort it himself while you buy a more reliable vehicle.
Cheers,
Neil.
Your man's a dealer. Not a particularly savvy one if he's advertising and selling multiple cars from his own garage premises thinking he has no comeback.
A Mechanic selling his or her own car a few times a year is one thing. This is another.
He therefore has obligations to you under the Consumer Rights Act...which at less than 30 days is a full refund as the onus is 100% with him to show the vehicle was not faulty at time of purchase - which is almost a given if it faults within that period. Up to six months, he'd still have to evidence and convince the court it wasn't faulty from day one.
Gather as much evidence as you can, including all the screen grabs etc.
Once you have the evidence, formally demand your full refund. If he refuses, it's five minutes on Money Claim Online to begin the legal side.
I would doubt that HMRC are aware of his activities. He'll owe VAT on the profits made from the sales and probably also isn't declaring the income either. I can't think he'd want that part of any court documentation and/or records.
Local Trading Standards may also take an interest as well.
I am leaning to this more and more . I haven’t had any communication back yet whether it is fixable still or not
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Yes I’m thinking this is the wiser option as I have not been inspired so far to think that a second time round it should be any different than the first
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Thanks , I’ll do all of this as a last resort. I really don’t know what his intentions are when he is unable to fix something he has sold as working . I may be doing him an injustice as he may be obliging to a refund . I have not broached that yet with him .
Thanks for those pointers of where to start should it get messy
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By all means give him a chance but, as a Dealer, he is obliged to return your monies based on this being a fundamental major failure within 30 days of purchase. You are not obliged to allow a repair at this point.
Sounds stressful hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction.
Is water the same as coolant in this context?
Also a few mentioned paying VAT on profits. That's not correct. It would be income tax or corporation tax due on profits.
VAT comes into it if he's over the threshold, and then it's the difference between the VAT he pays and the VAT he collects.
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Hi Nick
If you are in the Trade then we have to pay VAT on our margin difference between buying price and selling price.
Sooo if you have a sale at 6k car cost 5k you have 1k margin
1000 X 1 / 6 = £ 166.66 VAT liability
And if he’s knocked out as many cars as described and not paid VAT on his margin thats a ton of potential underpayment.
Declaring as a Private sale circumnavigates this liability if you get my drift.
Last edited by TKH; 14th March 2023 at 21:26.
I really fail to see how there would have been a PRS on that, it is after all an engine issue, its not as if its a wiper blade or a bulb. I would be asking the questions about this and find out how it’s went from clearly burning oil to not burning oil.Just noticed the MOT on November 2022 showed the emissions test in particular the engine oil temp check notes temp gauge showed warm engine ?
There was also a fail and repair immediately notice for it on the mot as exhaust emits excessive dense blue smoke during acceleration. This is not something I’ve seen though so they must of fixed that
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As I said earlier, maybe not the same car, the stand in was worse
Interesting, a VAT margin scheme - works out the same anyway - output tax on £6k is £1k and input tax on £5k is £833, so pay over £167 as you say.
Will still need to pay his income tax on the profit, so, say, 40% on £833, so £333, unless there's something for that too!
Matey will need to sell a few more motors at this rate!
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Erm, this may be dumb but... I sort of assumed this sort of thing was just taken care of at servicing time. Do folk regular put water in their car? Can't say I've ever done that.
The only time I’ve ever checked water and oil levels are before a long trip, my dad always used to do this so I always do but as you say I’ve never checked every week or month unless I know there’s an existing issue.
If or when he gets collared by Revenue and Customs they will have a field day with unpaid VAT on margins and of course compound penalties.
It’s different to straightforward input/ output VAT returns as the margin can be varied and certain other VATable items can reduced the VAT liability and a degree of honest transparency from the trader.
But think this if a new price car contains 20% VAT, its margin also has VAT paid on it so quite a money spinner for government then think it changes hands 4 X through dealers thats 4 more lots of VAT on the margin.
In respect of Corporation tax a dealer who has 100k of margin or Used profit GP can actually make Zero profit (quite easily) so pay no corporation tax but would still have liability to pay VAT on margins.
The industry is riddled in Traders trying to pass themselves off as ‘privates’ obfuscating rights and not paying their dues.
The amount of times we had people in saying they had bought a Mechanics wifes or mothers car was alarming to the point we joked her surname was Mrs Avis.
But hey lets just hope for the OP he gets either a proper no corners cut repair from the ‘trader’ he bought it from or the ‘trader’ gives him a refund without the need for further escalation.
Last edited by TKH; 15th March 2023 at 07:42.
The more info you give us, the more I'm agreeing that you should ask for a refund.
Move on and buy something else.
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