Give ém their due always been able to identify, adapt to exploit the opportunity of the times...weren´t it Rolex who flogged watches to Allied POW´s in WW 2...officers only though, not to the hoi polloi.Originally Posted by Toshk
Clever stuff.
Give ém their due always been able to identify, adapt to exploit the opportunity of the times...weren´t it Rolex who flogged watches to Allied POW´s in WW 2...officers only though, not to the hoi polloi.
These videos are mostly click bait fodder to keep the channel owners revenue rolling in and invariably pitched at the wider audience (people who want to believe they can get a better watch than a Rolex for £200).
Whereas it is true that San martin's finishing is exemplary and frequently far better than watches costing 10x the price, they are nevertheless Horological white goods, most will never be serviced and will just get binned when they start to need on - at best they'll be fitted with a new movement costing less than £30, but most often just binned.
The simple, unavoidable fact is that a Rolex is an investment, taken care of, it's a very safe place to put your money. A San martin never will be.
San Martin watches are excellent, truly excellent for what you pay but in the end, they're a consumable. Rolex, on the other hand are heirloom pieces.
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Interesting perspective here from the CEO of Rolex, apologies for posting again,
https://fortune.com/europe/2024/04/1...e-investments/
Seems a fair enough view to me.
FWVLIW, I think you're wrong on every point.
First you ignore that aside from smartwatches, Rolex make and sell more watches than anyone else - they are a definitively mass-market product.
Concomitantly, they are also a mass-produced product - the human hand plays very little part in the making of each one. Even the noted ease of dismantling of the movements is intended to make assembly easier, and has much less to do with servicing.
People that buy the likes of San Martin are buying the look, it's no more than a fashion statement. We mustn't forget that to the overwhelming majority of people watches are jewellery (which is also another reason why obsessing over timekeeping is a WIS-only thing). No-one's kidding themselves they've bought a Rolex unless they're a bit simple, but you are getting most of the virtues at 1/50th of the price...
Right now - as even C24's own price charts demonstrate - Rolex is not only not meant to be an investment, most models are shedding 'value', and a whole lot of colds are being caught amongst those who thought the bubble would never burst. And with a thoroughly mediocre release of 2024 models and no headline discontinuations, even Rolex themselves are not helping the speculators...
People make the comparison videos - and threads like this - because all the lies and BS around this one particular brand deserve to be called-out. They make those of us that simply enjoy watches and horology look like simpering, halfwitted fools. It's a hunk of jewellery after all, not an 'investment' and not a religious cult.
What you say is broadly true however, over any given 10 year period the "shedding value" you mentioned will even out and the general trend will always be appreciation. We've all done ok on Rolex ownership in my family but then they've been bought for the long term. I've people bought during the massive COVID stay at home driven inflation, then yep, they'll catch a cold, in the short term. Hand on to it and you'll be golden.
It is exactly because of the non-wis buyers that this will invariably be true. When people come in to some money and decide to treat themselves they'll put the money somewhere they know and in the instance of Horological investment it'll go (for many) into one of the strongest brands in the world.
No one has to like it, I personally don't, but it is what it is and I really don't see any point in denying it.
There's been talk of a sketchy lack of transparency and iffy movement iterations but that's not going to stop Joe Soap putting the money he just inherited for his late uncle George into the Sub he's always wanted and this keeps the merry-go-round spinning.
Incidentally, Rolex watches are still built to outlast their owners if taken care of so they are, most definitely, heirloom pieces.
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Casio makes 38 million watches per year.
Seiko makes around 5 million and 50 million movements
Rolex is what, around a million? Two?
People who want fashion brands aren't buying San Martin watches.
The brand is known amongst watch enthusiasts because they produce copies of Swiss brands.
You ask anybody with their nose pressed to a watch shop window if theyve heard of San Martin and the answer will be no.
They don't have a high street presence, they dont have an advertising strategy, they are absolutely unknown outside the nerds and the Mittys.
You know this.
Rolex are decreasing in value, which is exactly the direction that they should be going in post bubble which was unsustainable and driven by stupidity.
Thats what the Ch24 chart shows.
What the Ch24 chart also shows is that the Rolex pre owned market is still over or close to RRP - no radical 50% drops the minute you walk out the showroom door, and you're showing us this like its a negative.
Show the stats for other brands if you want to play compare and contrast.
On the "cult" front, there are people who wear Rolex every day without giving them a second thought, and there are people who spend their lives scouring the web for lookalikes and then performing in depth comparisons in an attempt to convince themselves and their cohorts that their choices are the smart ones. Or turning up on every Rolex thread to take aim at other people for wearing a brand they dont like. Come on.
I would also argue that wearing copies isn't "horology" any more than wearing knock-off Nikes makes you an athlete, and I fail to see how predictably taking an absolute bath on these copies whenever they crop up on SC as soon as the frisson of thinking that you're beating Rolex (or Doxa) at their own game is anything more than simpering halfwittery at its finest.
Honestly, if you like watches, buy a Timex or a Casio or a Russian or something vintage from Ebay, anything else is better imo.
Spot on. As usual.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
+2, very good post.
I know we live in a post-truth World, and it's become normal for politicians to wilfuly misunderstand people to make some unrelated point that takes the heat off them and their party, but here... Not so much.
I'll admit I'm surprised that Casio and Seiko still make that many watches, but even if they do, it misses the point, which is that Rolex are mass-produced watches - the number bandied-about being in the two million ballpark.
I did not assert that San Martin make fashion watches, rather implying that watches are all no more than fashion items if we are being objective. San Martin happen to cater to those who like the look of upscale brands, but either can't afford or can't justify the exploitative prices. We may sneer all we want, but it's a successful business model for them and a good many other lookalikes - and SM at least take the trouble to make really good lookalikes, better than the originals in some ways...
What's significant about Rolex going down in value, is that most of The Faithful insist this doesn't happen, cannot happen. Yet even a company with profoundly vested interests in unceasing price inflation is having to acknowledge that it is... That's all. Undoubtedly a way will be found to reinflate the bubble at some point, that's as inevitable as human greed.
Very little that goes on in watch interest groups is horology, obviously, that is the topic not the activity - but for a Rolex enthusiast to suggest that any kind of cult exists around cheap copies is special pleading taken to an irony-deficient extreme. Never mind pointing out that these things lose value! I mean, who knew?! Almost all things that humans can make lose value, mostly due to wear and tear - even Rolexes can lose value on that basis: which is why all self respecting accolytes dare not actually wear them and instead must keep them in their safes with the plastic protectors still on them - until its time to cash-in their investments of course.
I notice that among the Faithful, there are always those who take personal offence that their belief system is being questioned - it's oddly as true of Rolex as it is of religions. This is Too Bad, because these things should always be questioned - dogma is dangerous, repressive, regressive stuff, and just as religion has sometimes hampered mankind's progress, so too has the tumour-like growth of the Rolex obsession in our little corner of existence toxified an entire hobby, warping it away from a geeky passion for an obsolete technology into an ugly numbers game where only one brand is seen as important, and only its stored monetary value really counting for anything even then. It's always the retort of last resort "At least my Rolex hasn't lost me any money!" - like that's all that really matters in life and in this hobby...
However much it makes arguing simple, neither me, nor anyone else who dares point-out that the emperor is in fact naked does so because we hate or envy Rolex or its owners, it's not personal - it's just the bullshit that goes with the brand, the zealotry of the more vocal owners, and the toxic effects that ripple out across everything else. Those are loathesome...
Get over yourself.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I completely agree with you there!
Rubbish. Many people who buy Rolex wear them every day. In fact I would go so far as to say the vast majority do.
I myself wear every watch I own, some more than others, the Rolex models more than most.
Those keeping them in safes for a couple of years hoping to cash in most likely aren’t Rolex fans, they’re investors, attracted by the prospect of a quick buck. That’s why they moan when prices begin to fall.
Me I don’t care, I’ll be buying the Rolexes off them if they take a bath because I like the watches.
I’ll also probably buy some more beaters as well, like San Martins, when their owners realise no matter how much they look like a Rolex nobody cares what watch you wear in the real world.
They see the condescending smile they get when they tell someone that their 100 quid watch is as good as a Rolex then want their money back. Thing is they’re virtually worthless because most people can afford 100 quid for a new one. Handy for gardening and workshop duties though.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Sorry, but you're not helping your case here.
Firstly you're reducing a vast (which you note yourself when citing production numbers) group of people to "the faithful" and making some highly entertaining statements.
Who are these "faithful" exactly?
I'm a fan of the brand, am I one of the "faithful" who insists that Rolex cannot lose value? Because I think if you look back on this thread, I've said exactly the opposite and noted that it's about time that the bubble burst because it was falsely inflated by stupidity.
I also like wear and enjoy other brands so do most other posters on this forum, so your narrative that Rolex fans cannot appreciate watches unless theres a crown logo on the dial is inaccurate and disappointingly puerile tbh.
There is no irony in noting that people who go to the lengths of amassing copies and homages in order to compare them to the real thing and declare that they are definitely better is cult-like behaviour.
The definition of a cult is a small group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion, or a relatively small group of people having religious practices or beliefs which are regarded by others as strange.
Given that you're utterly insistent that "The Followers" of Rolex are wide spread sheeple effectively polluting horology for the "real enthusiasts" TM then Rolex must be a pretty broad church with a large congregation. Are you following?
Therefore the "My homage is just as good as.. please click and subscribe on my hundredth video extolling the virtues of the Mitty Martin" is a relatively small group exhibiting practices or beliefs which are regarded by others as strange.
No irony there.
You can pout and complain that the retort of the Rolex owner is that "at least my Rolex hasn't lost me money" but it wasn't Rolex owners that introduced a graph to make a point, was it?
It wasnt any of the sheep, it was you. So I would suggest that if you don't want Rolex owners to respond with commentary about value retention - don't introduce it with a barely contained semi because you've observed a drop in market prices.
This drop hasn't affected anybody who bought their watch because they wanted to wear it.
You can say its not personal if you like, but when you position yourself as someone who "simply loves watches" or "is just into horology" or however you phrased it, while consistently referring to people who have one or a few Rolex in their collection as "the followers" or cultists or those who's scales have not yet fallen from their eyes then of course its personal because your elevation as a lover of horology can only succeed in this context by diminishing others.
You're not a man questioning a belief system like some sort of savant.
This sort of narrative isn't new which is probably why you do enjoy some success at getting people to take the bait.
The reality is though that most of us have been on forums and into watches for a number of years and have a broad view and experience of most notable brands.
The safe queen investor crypto Rolex Covid cash crew were never on here, and have long since departed the "watch game" so all you're doing really is attempting to sow division amongst peers.
In fairness, with respect V, the buying and wearing of any watch regardless of brand in and of itself isn't horology, horology being the scientific study of time...a horologist is a person or company that makes or repairs clocks or watches...The pastime under discussion is probably most honestly described as shopping and collecting. Though there are doubtless some few horologists among the TZ ranks. Likewise donning a pair of trainers, any pair, doesn't bestow athleticism despite what the billions spent on advertising may seek to suggest otherwise...sigh, if only it were that easy.
Last edited by Passenger; 2nd May 2024 at 07:56.
PATHETIC.
Very weishi washy performance that is. Time to get that moved on. 😃PATHETIC.
That's not a 32xx calibre though?? All my 31xx powered watches are well within SCOSC.PATHETIC.
Fixed. This is why we need superlative chronometers. The swatch stuff just doesn’t cut the mustard
You should keep a close eye on those amplitudes.
Fixed. This is why we need superlative chronometers. The swatch stuff just doesn’t cut the mustard
And buy San martins in perpetration
Is having a Timegrapher a bit like an oil pressure gauge in a car, in that you didn't have a problem until you got the gaugeFixed. This is why we need superlative chronometers. The swatch stuff just doesn’t cut the mustard
Boredom and SC but with a 5513 service costing 1.5k it’s nice to double check it needs one first
Also! Oystersteel is as as soft as 32xx amplitudes
Last edited by Toshk; 2nd May 2024 at 19:32.
I've never seen a San Martin first hand, but I do know that Gary is as much a fanboy (of SM) as Rolex fanboys are.
That said, he's far from alone in praising their high quality finish amongst the Ali brands, which they should have, being double or more the price of some competitors.
As others have said, it's a moot point. You don't cross shop Rolex and San Martin, but it is probably indicative of how good fake Rolexes are these days, which is probably worrying for those shopping for a used Rolex.
I guess the better Rolex 'homage' brands like Steinhart are going to be the ones taking a hit from San Martin, though.
If you want something that looks much like a Rolex Sub, you can buy a £60 Pagani Design. If you want the brand on your wrist, you'll never be satisfied with another brand.
M
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