Reply With QuoteThat Autocar article is over 12 months old and at a time when there was a significant correction in used car values as a whole. Again, not an EV specific occurrence.
It's stuff like this that seems to suggest used EV values aren't perhaps going well: https://newsletter.autocar.co.uk/car...values-plummetOriginally Posted by cyrusir
I don't have an issue with electric cars, some of the small ones have a place in the world. I do have an issue with ridiculous SUVs, especially things like the 2.8-ton iX, but that's not EV-specific (although the electric ones weigh more than the ICE equivalents). There's not one EV that suits my needs right now so I'll stick with my small ICE car until it's no longer viable. If I had to replace it tomorrow, I'd not consider an EV.
"A man of little significance"
That Autocar article is over 12 months old and at a time when there was a significant correction in used car values as a whole. Again, not an EV specific occurrence.
So it is, I hadn't noticed the 3 instead of 4. Here's one from last month:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/b...king-ev-values
"The crumbling values of electric cars pushed rental company Hertz to a loss last quarter, caused the collapse of UK EV provider Onto in September and dented the 2023 bottom line of one Europe’s largest leasing companies after it made a loss on EV disposals.
Stable used car values have become critical to new car sales in that they determine finance costs, so the continued weakness in EV prices is also hurting car companies as they look to increase the percentage of zero-emission cars they sell.
Those car companies are now torn. They either boost demand for pricier EVs by slashing prices, which would shred used values. Or they shore up those values by holding firm on pricing, losing them customers."
"A man of little significance"
Why would the size of an EV matter? Is an ICE SUV more acceptable than an electric one?
I'd never go back to ICE, a Tesla is just a far more pleasant and hassle free car to drive.
Ooof, What Car? this month did a feature on the fastest depreciating cars and in first place, the Mokka EV retained 27.9% of its value over three years, the DS E-Tense EV retains 28.5%, in third the Corsa Electric is on 30.2%, fourth the Leaf is on 30.5% and the Zoe is fifth on 30.6%.
"A man of little significance"
EV prices do need to stabilise and RRPs fall more into line with ICE, I can’t argue with that. That lease companies are facing challenges in coping with the changes is probably a relatively short term thing.
Either new EV prices will fall and lease companies take a short term hit or they can increase the cost of leases for the consumer and possibly lose business but that’s a business decision for them to make and not the fault of EVs per se.
Whilst there is so much EV bashing in the media, buyers are certainly going to have less confidence in them and therefore depreciation will continue to be high, again hardly the fault of EVs per se.
The great thing about the market at the present time is that we have so much choice; you can choose to look at EVs or continue with ICE as you intend to. Personally, I don’t do enough miles in my car to warrant changing it, it’s a 14 year old 3.0l diesel so not worth much. Id like a Polestar 2 but really can’t justify having a £20k car on the drive which doesn’t get used as much as it should. If values continue to plummet though, I may just be tempted at £10k.
Edit : Finance companies have got it wrong before and survived; in 2017/18 lots of Nissan Leaf owners who’d bought on PCP deals were handing the card back because the balloon payment was substantially higher than the value of the car.
Last edited by Dave+63; 23rd April 2024 at 15:18.
So much wailing and gnashing of teeth over EV’s in the press of late, and so much negativity. Meanwhile I’ve been quietly driving mine on the daily 15 mile each way commute since early December, park it on the drive every night and every 2 or 3 days charge it whilst I sleep on Octopus and my daily commute is costing me £3.50 a week. It’s so easy to drive when I’m bleary eyed in the morning,
Heats up fast and is a nice quiet place to sit. It’s just a car now, albeit quieter and cheaper to run. I genuinely don’t understand all the hate and people getting their knickers in a twist tbh. If I didn’t have a drive to charge it or had a 250 mile return commute every day I’d drive an ICE car - probably a
Diesel with all the associated issues with mass flywheels and euro 6 this and that - but for me the EV is perfect. It’s just a car, and having spent nearly 40 years driving cars where technology has almost stood still, it’s nice that something different has come along. The world seems to be turning into a Bladerunner set and it’s kicking off everywhere. Not sure why a quiet car that runs on electricity is quite so annoying?!?
Think hates a bit strong, more a general shoulder shrug at the apparent amazingness of 30 miles a day in a ground car,,,just not very Bladerunner is it...and we´re all expected to be jazzed, seems really kinda a bit of let down.
It's not the car that is annoying. (not a jibe at you BTW).
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I’m not saying it’s amazing. I’m saying it’s just a car. And I was referring to the environment turning into Bladerunner not the car?! Perhaps hate is too strong - but there is so much negativity out there out there right now, a lot of it ill-informed and frankly a bit daft - it does make me wonder if the oil companies are happy to see it carry on. I am jazzed at the reduced cost of my commute however, and have hardly driven our other petrol car since getting the EV. I drive it every couple of weeks to remind myself how a manual gearbox operates - and was recently quite shocked at the cost of a tank of petrol when it needed topping up!Think hates a bit strong, more a general shoulder shrug at the apparent amazingness of 30 miles a day in a ground car,,,just not very Bladerunner is it...and we´re all expected to be jazzed, seems really kinda a bit of let down.
I was initially apprehensive about an EV - what about the range, how will I charge it, will the battery die? - but after almost three years and around 35k miles I've concluded, like RobDad, that, it's just a car. A cheap to run car, admittedly, and one which is brilliantly suited to transportation rather than providing thrills, but ultimately nothing to get excited about. Oh, and it's clean, quiet and really easy to use - once you've had an EV even the best auto gearbox seems a bit crude.
The depreciation on mine is a bit of a PITA, but that's the market rather than the car - another reason that the next EV will be leased so I don't have to worry about the ups and downs and can let the market settle for the next three years. There are any number of crap EVs out there and I have a particular dislike of the de-stalking, de-instrumentation and general screenification that Tesla has introduced, but as with all things automotive, the good ones will survive and the poor ones will fade away after a few years.
I am probably too thick to understand the panic expressed by doomsayers about the crashing of prices of EV on the 2nd hand market and the link that allows them to declare hitherto that it makes EVs bad.
Most people who move into EVs with a new car do it on a lease. If prices crash, the lease company takes a bath, not them.
Others buy their car 2nd hand. When it comes to getting another car, if theirs has tumbled in price, the whole EV 2nd hand market will have and therefore they will be able to buy cheap a better car than they would have the market not crashed.
Some manufacturers may disappear; others are "too big to fall", especially European ones (I am not sure China and the US understand the concept of TBTF). Choose accordingly.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I don't think EVS are bad, they are lovely to drive. I just think they are very poor value for money
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
Even though the cost of ownership is lower than an ICE when running costs are taken into consideration?
And people are now moaning about depreciation so buying a nearly new EV is cheaper than ever?
That depends entirely on how many miles you do, as Toyota have constantly pointed out, you have to do a lot of miles and using AA data on the average UK commute they claim 91% of car owners will not recoup the increased cost of this EV.
I will buy an EV at some point , some of them are fantastic, the smaller ones in particular, just not yet. Happy with a Hybrid, have a Corolla and a Yaris
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
That can very well be the case for you. It seems to me that those who own one wholeheartedly disagree.
It all boils down to what you expect from a car. If it's aimed at taking you from A to B anything beyond a Dacia is poor value for money.
There are legitimate questions about how the situation will evolve. The insurance market and how it will move is one, and how the government will make up the tax deficit on what he used to make from petrol is another. On a personal level, how you can access cheap charging is a very valid consideration: living in a flat without access to power on your parking space is likely to make the choice for you.
But VFM? Again, the market will decide, and at the moment it seems it is going in a way that should please you.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Well yes they would, wouldn't they, but we all have different financial situations.
If I did more miles an EV would make sense and I'd buy one, but I don't, it's not a controversial opinion
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
From April 2025 Marc, all EVs (not just new ones) will be charged RFL at the same rate as ICE of the same age. Pre 2017 will move into the lowest chargeable band (used to be £20 along with some small ICE) whilst later cars will be the same as ICE (started at £140 a year, I think it’s about £170 now).
My 2015 van goes from £0 to £295 from April next year!
https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterly...h=4579757d4621
Not everyone agrees, but they will have a new EV range in another 3 years, whether they will be cheap enough to make sense for me and many UK drivers is under review . I'll probably get one as car up in 3 years, dunno
Maybe Toyota are wrong , but a hybrid Yaris top of the range is 28k, which admittedly is same price as base Nissan Leaf, so I accept the price difference is starting to equate
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
Agree cost savings are always jazzy...my previous post was meant slightly humorously...as you mention, the environment, seems clear to me we've cooked our goose tbh, the way the environmentals are still going badly despite all the promises and commitments, how the weather/ seasons can be observed to have altered, we've maybe a generation or 2 at best, some of the super rich might manage to eke out 'civilisation' in enclaves a wee bit longer...Seems a bit unfair really that we aren't enjoying our last hurrah with proper bladerunner style transport! Must settle for our best option being phat blinged up leccy ground cars...sigh. Oh well.
Last edited by Passenger; 24th April 2024 at 10:15.
I don't buy a car with any reference to the environment tbh, I buy what I like with a nod to value
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
You are not alone, we can't / won't change, we are what/ where we are.
Indeed, I recycle and do the usual things, wife won't buy single use plastics etc but I haven't yet moved to spending more on a car for environmental reasons, not when I'm funding a son at University.
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
I don't think they would say that if it was not the case: Quite the opposite, I'd say as they would be very vocal about the EV thing being a con. I think they looked at their circumstances and made their choice; they're coming on the thread to say it worked for them.
Your opinion is not controversial when you say it doesn't make sense for you.
It is more so when you attack EVs in general when you say they are poor value for money. I personally do not "get" the existence of hybrids (as opposed to plug-in hybrids), as I doubt using petrol to charge the battery that will drive your vehicle a few miles is energy efficient, but for city centre use it can be an advantage. It also seems that they can have expensive issues, just like many ICE cars.
Anyway, this is the debate on another thread, this one is about the cyber truck and my opinion is that it is rather shit.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Well it's just an opinion. And rather emotive to call it an 'attack'. I've said I like EVs and will buy one, when the price for hybrids and EVs start to equalise and make financial sense. I'm not against EVs, just against the price they are right now in the UK. They will make sense at some point
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
I wouldn’t take what Toyota say too seriously, they nailed their flag to the Hybrid and hydrogen flags a while ago and are struggling to eat the humble pie.
I suspect you may be right, they had a point and have made superb hybrids for a long time and got in early. Are they too late to full EVs maybe, as I've already acknowledged.
Simple fact is hybrids still make sense for most/many drivers in the UK, depends on mileage.
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
Everything makes sense to someone, my personal opinion is that basic hybrids are a bit of a con and over complicated. Plug in hybrids are equally complicated but with larger batteries can work for many to commute on electric but have a vehicle capable of long mileages.
To me (and it’s only my opinion), its either ICE or EV, that work best.
And you’re right Marc, the Cyber truck is shit!
Maybe, earlier hybrids certainly were, the latest 2.0l hybrid engine from Toyota is superb though and a step up from the previous 1.8
But they have one small battery is in the boot and you can lift it out, that part is a lot simpler than a 10k bill from Tesla to replace their battery's ( as an example )
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
sorry but can we dig into this a bit, what two cars are toyota comparing when they make this statement?
So what?
Last edited by Dave+63; 24th April 2024 at 10:50.
No idea, tbh I read it two years ago when I changed the car again and couldn't find an EV that made sense financially
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
I wonder if Toyota have been hedging their bets. Lots of the world isn't set up for EV use and will I assume continue with ICE while the fuel and cars are still available.https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterly...h=4579757d4621
Not everyone agrees, but they will have a new EV range in another 3 years, whether they will be cheap enough to make sense for me and many UK drivers is under review . I'll probably get one as car up in 3 years, dunno
Maybe Toyota are wrong , but a hybrid Yaris top of the range is 28k, which admittedly is same price as base Nissan Leaf, so I accept the price difference is starting to equate
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
I was in St Lucia in February and almost every car there was a Toyota, it really is the brand of choice at every price range. I did think the place would be ideal for producing bio fuel too, huge amounts of land covered in wild vegetation that grows very quickly, lots of sun and wind and surrounded by wave power too.
"A man of little significance"
I once read that the inventor of the automobile gear box said at the time that it would do for now, until something better came along. Apocryphal perhaps, but it has always resonated with me.
Pity the thread has gone off topic, there is so much to talk about and laugh at with the cybertruck, the fact it looks like it was built by the losing team on scrapheap challenge, the amazing tent option that looks, well nothing like the renders. The stainless steel that does stain if you use it like a car. The lack of safety on the auto closing boot, failing to detect objects in the way. The self driving lol.
All this from a firm where the owner claims to know more about manufacturing than anyone else on the planet.
Looking forward to the wheels falling off next, the control arms look very flimsy.
Anyway, onwards and upwards to the roadster launch, been just months away for years now, that and the robotaxi which will absolutely happen.
Yea that was the purpose of the thread, the cyber truck sounds like an awful product
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
I think we can all agree on that!
There is a video of someone peeling a carrot on the edge of a door before chopping it in the boot.
The funniest thing about the whole thing is the number with serious faults documented on twitter by the owner that end with "Still love the car."
Not a cult(tesla rather than EV vehicles)
I watched the Matt Watson review and it looks absolutely ridiculous. Probably kill or seriously maim anyone who gets run over at 20mph too - how on earth did it pass as suitable for road use?
I dunno but would guess given it's the US where any man and his dog can get their guns on, safety/ suitability is something of a relatively elastic term...
It’s no better or worse than your average massive US pickup I’d have thought?I dunno but would guess given it's the US where any man and his dog can get their guns on, safety/ suitability is something of a relatively elastic term...
It’s only slight redeeming quality might be it’s active safety systems might mean you’d be less likely to hit somebody or something in the first place.
To be fair to Ford and GM though, I don’t know where the active safety systems on those ‘Super Duty’ style pick up trucks sit in comparison.
I wouldn’t want to be hit by any of them, to be fair!
Well, the stories of shoddy build quality already piling in
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
For the avoidance of doubt, whilst I’m interested in some of the technical aspects of the cyber truck, including the problems, overall I think it’s a steaming pile of sh1t3 and I wouldn’t be seen dead in one!
I don’t think it was really aimed at me or most folks on here though, indeed it won’t be on sale here or anywhere in Europe.
We can safely point and laugh I think!
It's a POS to my eyes also.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I hope.
It’s an abomination, the most crass turd to ever be laid on tarmac.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
https://twitter.com/creepydotorg/sta...Dv03E6ADg&s=19
Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
4 year old EVs are currently 25%, caused by reliability and battery fears , price of electricity and our government backpedaling.
I would be very happy with 25% for my 2 year old EV. Im at minus 50% currently.
You live and learn. Or watch others learn from their mistakes, much cheaper.
I may have misunderstood Adrian thought he was was saying a 4 year old ev's worth just 25 per cent of original price, gulp...
Last edited by Passenger; 26th April 2024 at 09:33.
That’s a broad sweeping statement and whilst probably true for some, not true of all EVs.
The reasons are not necessarily correct either; the way I see it, EVs are more expensive than their equivalent ICE when new but closer to parity with ICE at four years old. This obviously means that buyers of new EVs take a greater hit but buyers of four year old EVs don’t have a cost implication when choosing between EV and ICE.
Granted, there are still fears and scare stories of EV batteries costing tens of thousands to replace but there should be no fears over reliability as EVs have far less to go wrong than ICE.
Posting Permissions
