Reply With Quoteviewtopic.php?f=1&t=101506
:wink:
:D
Tag movement is practically identical!
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=101506
:wink:
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
The TAG has a blue column wheel, which means it is completely different :D
This has been discussed a couple of times here, mainly because Swatch have stated that this was what broke the camels back when discussing the supply of ETA movements, the chairman was a bit upset at TAG claiming an in-house Swiss movement when it was a tarted up Japanese movement.
To be honest though, it is a decent enough movement and should do a good job, a bit naff that TAG claim it's in-house, or that Swatch got upset about it as it's probably just as good as any of the ETA movements and i prefer chronos that use the column wheels anyway :D
:D
I prefer Seiko movements to Eta IMO!
Well well, I can understand the frustration that Hayek is expressing. Copying an old patent expired Seiko design is not the way forward for the Swiss watch industry. Its exactly what the cheap Chinese competition does! Customers will not pay high end for old Japanese designs rebuilt as in house (nothing wrong with that movement though). But Tag Heuer wanting to be one of the top will not do themselves any favors with this. It would be a complete different story if they were honest and offered it as a budget alternative to their Valjoux 7750 offerings!
But the Valj. 77** series is ancient. Shouldn't it be 'budget'?
Is it "patient expired"? Did they do so without working with Seiko? Wow, had not seen that in any of the informed commentary on this issue.Originally Posted by Dibetu
Oh, and the 7750 is older than the Seiko movement upon which TAG built its "new 100% in house" movement.
The 7750 does have a long proven track record. Think I'll always prefer Seiko tho as the movements are less fiddly imo.
But what if they've got it working well and it looks good, the Seiko design has a lot of things that expensive movements do, in as many ways it uses similar technology to the Rolex Daytona 4130 or the Piguet 1185 as well as others, so if TAG have taken this, built on it slightly to get it working then where's the problem?
The whole watch industry borrows from each other and the Swiss have even borrowed ideas from Seiko and built on them, as much as they'd hate to state it. The entire watch industry are basically taking a design that is hundreds of years old and building on it, every now and again somebody comes up with something innovative, such as the Zenith El Primero, Piguet 1185 and others, but it's mainly been put together with ideas that were from others, or slightly modified from others.
One would think that over the last 35 years they have payed off the initial investment of designing both the tooling and the movement itself...
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=100189
They should have been upfront about it. The 6s37 movement is arguably better than the 7750 and they would have had a winner. But then again, their targeted customer is the fashion/style-conscious high-street shopper (who doesn't give a toss about the actual horology), and not geeky WIS types :|
Cheers
Stern
Of course the Seiko movement in question is a good reliable piece of kit but it is not original TAG design. The only way forward for the Swiss watch industry is with quality and innovation. Else they will loose out, unless the movement is built in China too and offered for less than the originals :lol: I for one would rather buy the original Seiko in this case. Its the small lies that make the big difference. TAG = Liars ! But then while that brand has always had some nice pieces, innovation has not been their strength in many years. And their recent achievements have been innovations purchased off the shelve which they managed to mess up too.
:lol: :lol:
Never would I buy that movement in a tag case.
If I wanted that IMHO very good chronograph movement in a watch, it would have the name Seiko on the dial :)
Cheers,
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Its got to be a Seiko or ETA movement for me; i have never had much time for TAG watches they are over priced and over rated for what they are IMHO :D
.
The Tag version will have a Swiss escapement assembly so I cannot see what all the fuss is about. :pirate:
... and at the end of the day it's just another tilting pinion. Big deal. :roll:
john
Costume jewellery. Ouch!!!
Question : if TH bought the rights for the caliber and they are producing 51 % of the parts in Switzerland , this is not Swiss made ? :blackeye:
Nicolae
PS I am not talking about Swiss design . :wink:
Well if you buy a TAG that's what you'll get. :wink:
Cheers,
Neil.
Can't really see the fuss either, most non manufactures rely on ebauches from other firms.
IWC have been doing it for years. :wink:
Perhaps TAG are pre-empting a shortage of ETA's?
No-one would have cared if it hadn't been based on a Seiko. :D
Cheers,
Neil.
It is DAFT REALLY, so many of the Eta low grade quartz movements are assembled outside of Switzerland like Thailand!
Regs
Bry
They are indeed Bry.
My Mrs has got one of those tiny brass clocks with a Thai ETA in there.
Cheers,
Neil.
Agree, but they are Sold as Swiss designed movements and not as Swiss Made. ETA produces the majority of parts for their movements and especially their quartz movements outside of Switzerland. I see no problem at all if Tag declares it as a Seiko designed movement, built and modified by TAG, but to say they had developed it and selling as a full in-house movement that is where the problem lies. Most brands out there rely on movements built and / or designed by somone else. IWC for example did exactly the same mistake when they launched their new in house a few years ago and it was not long before watchmakers and WIS caught them out as it was an ETA built modified Valgrange movement based on the Valjoux 7750. They then admitted the "mistake" in their press release and changed the wording in it.
Both Longines and Tissot are now using old Lemania designed budget Chronograph movements with quite a lot of plastic parts in them, in their new offerings; the Swatch group made no secret of it that it was based on old 1970's designs. Nothing wrong with that.
You are saying the magic words. Seiko with their total vertical integration, are the only ones who can pose any real threat to ETA because they can match them on the retoric, every step of the way.
I think that we the people (in the various forums) are seeing something, that is more siginificant than what the players envisioned with their actions.
john
Costume jewellery. Ouch!!!
Didn't Seiko supply the movements for some of the older Breitling digital watches? I thought the Breitling Pluton uses a Seiko digital movement
Whilst I love the Monaco - I am thankful that it looks like this movement is being made for a different watch - I for one wouldn't buy a Tag with it - not after reading the press statements by TAG on this great new movement - which at best is misleading.
It's just a matter of time...
Shhh ... quiet. Listen. What's that sound? Ah ... it's the prices of Heuers, pre-TAG, going up.
And ... wait a minute. There's another sound. But louder. Prices again!
But of modern TAG Heuers ... going down.
May I ask which IWC calibre you're referring to? Am rather curious to read up on this. Also, I knew that the Tissot was implementing the new budget chronograph calibre, but I wasn't aware that Longines was -- I was only aware that they brought out a new column wheel chronograph movement which will debut in a Longines reissue. Do you know which model it will be in?
Edit: I think you are referring to the IWC 8110 Pellaton movement? I think we'll have to wait and see how much the Tag movement differs from the Seiko to compare who is the greater offender RE marketing as a pure in house movement. If I recall (and from what I can observe), IWC re-used the base plate layout and naturally the going train and keyless works, but of course they used a completely different automatic winding bridge (with Pellaton winding system), and naturally were not using the chronograph bridge. The regulation method is also different, and the balance cock appears different as well.
Personally I think this is not too far off from the case of, say, Nomos Tangomat calibres, which use the same mechanical layout of the Peseux 7001. It is still wrong to claim that it is wholly developed from the ground up in-house, but there are only so many ways one can lay out a going train, spring barrel, and escapement, if you aren't really deviating from the traditional execution.
I would suggest that the seriousness of misleading marketing on development of an in-house chronograph, however, is a bit greater. If you didn't develop the chronograph execution, then what was there left for you to do?
I think it's a Citizen calibre in the Pluton
Cheers
Ewan
Thing is, we live in an electronic world now, we lived in a mechanical world in the 70's when most of the great movements were conceived, makes you wonder how difficult it is now to come up with anything fresh/new now, especially when the Swiss more or less enmasse junked most of the manufacturing machinery for mechanical movements in the 80's and stopped development at the same time. Then also factoring in that existing mechanical movements are fairly good as is, whats the incentive for pushing the technology? and thats without taking into account the likely investement in design/tooling etc.
From what I've heard Ryan is right about the Pluton movement.
Regs
Bry
That is not totally my understanding. There is undoubtedly no love lost between the Swiss watch industry and the Japanese one, now impersonated by SII (with one good, historical reason and plenty of very poor ones indeed).
But the main grief is about Tag pretending they had designed the calibre in-house.
There is no threat to ETA as such, quite the opposite: SG would like to supply his own brands only, plus a few selected clients (Breitling for example); they seem to forecast an evolution of the watch market, and would like to downsize and concentrate on their in-group abilities (in-house is probably the wrong word).
In fact, although Seiko must enjoy tremendously the humiliation to the Swiss label, they are probably not that keen to supply the likes of Tag. Selling a license, however, is probably fine since it does not involve increased production.
The real issue here, and we should see that coming from Hayek (probably, but it could come from others) in a near future is the redefinition of the "Swiss made" label, one of his soapboxes but one that has just been placed in the limelights courtesy of TH
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
You are absoluteley correct, agree.
The budget Lemania movement will be reserved for Tissot and Longines watches. The new old column wheel movement in the Longines reissue will be of a higher price class.
As it happens I do not agree. I wish they used the new Seiko derivative Cal. 1887 in the Manaco rather than the Silverstone. The only element that has been keeping me away from a Monaco (from day one) is the modular chrono.
On the other hand I really like the Monaco LS. I don’t dare to look at the price … but if one comes my way cheap … what a beaut !!! Seiko Ananta Chrono Auto go suck eggs. :P
john
Costume jewellery. Ouch!!!
If you think about it, having a modular chronograph is more true to the original than an integrated chronograph =P
On the flip side, perhaps Tag Heuer will put a Calibre 36 in a Monaco one day, which would truly be the height of irony (though it would produce a very desirable watch IMO)
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