Reply With QuoteI don't see how anyone who appreciates watches can 'hate' Seiko. Very high quality and keenly priced, love them 8)
Hello,
looking back at my circular travels towards WISdom (The Grail with no form - the Ultimate fulfillment of becoming content with what I have - which is doomed to eternally escape me) I have noticed a pattern to emergence. - That is going in and out of Seiko. Much has been said about Seiko and much will be said about Seiko in the future. Never a dull moment on a Seiko lovers/haters life!
It is often so that a WIS rookies down spiraling quest for finding the grail starts of from the Seikos. Indeed, many ex-rookies on this very forum also have gone trough the WIS initiation ritual known as the SCTF-route. Namely modding, tuning, frankensteining, reluming and so forth of the small-on-the budget-but-oh-so-big-one-the-bang! Seiko 6105´s, 6309´s etc. Been there myself.
Then, after having payed a mind-boggling sum of money on the various projects consisting of the modding, tuning, frankensteining, reluming and so forth of the small-on-the budget-but-oh-so-big-on-the-bang! Seiko´s I turned onto the dark side: the Swiss Watches. I more or less began that journey with a physical grail of mine which has - surprisingly - not ceased to give me pleasure. That watch is The Dark Prince of Shaffhausen that´s very existence sends shrivers down the spines of most Rolex diver aficionados and which is pictured on the Coat of Arms of Schaffhausen
...the IWC GST 2000 3536-001...
But, this was not supposed to be a bedtime story of the eternal rivalry between the Swiss cousins Rolex and the Thinking Man´s Rolex but of the pattern I had noticed of always returning to Seiko never mind what Swiss wonder I have had on a rotation. Truth be told I usually always wear a Seiko and they have a odd tendency to offspring unnoticeably thus fulfilling my watch box and leaving no money for new acquisitions from the Dark Side (Swiss)... Aye; whilst I would like to see myself as a true proponent of the Swiss haute couture horlogère I am not. - I simply lack the financial means and even though I would have ´em, my myriad of trials and errors in the art form of Flipping have taught me that it is (most often than not) not what it says on the price tag - it is what it says on the dial that counts! Certainly there are many fine makes out there but I acknowledge of being mentally branded on the hind with a tag that says SEIKO.
There is just something so right with the way they feel that they in many ways defy the boundaries of what is to be expected from a watch belonging to a certain price category thus deserving their reputation as being ones of the best bangs ever in the field of time machines. But... how does this equate with my WIS source of aspiration being IWC as witnessed by the 3536 ? Well... it is pretty simple really. For me SEIKO has something in common with the The Dark Prince of Shaffhausen: a certain cold and mechanical feel that oozes "QUALITY". I acknowledge that I will never have at any given time as many IWC´s as I usually have SEIKO´s but that is all right rally as for me they are on a way the same - I get the same kick out of a 250USD 6138-8020 that I get out of a 3536 costing almost fifteen times more. Right. As said previously, it is not what it says on the price tag; it is what it says on the dial. Well, not always but in the case of SEIKO it is so more often than it is with any other make. You mileage may, of course, vary. For me SEIKO is closer to IWC than Rolex.
Playing with possible candidates to form the collection... - notice, pretty many Seikos in that bunch...
Within the last few years it has become apparent that SEIKO is repositioning itself to become a noteworthy competitor on the same fields that have been so far the rams - the black prince of Schaffhausen -and its SWISS relatives territory. If things proceed as they have for the past few years I guess the black ram along with the other SWISS behemoths will have to start doing something different if they want to stay on top of their own game. Mind you - I associate myself with the black ram and yet acknowledge of being branded for life with a psychological red hot SEIKO iron. Yes. My financial arse really hurts from this act of Asian vandalism and I guess so will the Dark Princes and it´s SWISS relatives once the smoking iron from starts earmarking what used to be their laughing stock in masses nad they become converts of the Asian substitute.
So yeah, whilst I want to see myself as a IWC guy in my aspirational WIS daydream in truth I am Seiko guy to the bone. Yes, the iron was that hot and it is moving towards you too.
I can hear a biiiig wave coming!
Converts lining up first on the psychological branding line followed with the purchase line...
So, what´s the Brand that you relate most to? You sure that it will it be a happy ending if it is not SEIKO?
Mind you, whilst this was a WISstory it might actually become WIS History. Thanks for enduring :)
Thanks,
I don't see how anyone who appreciates watches can 'hate' Seiko. Very high quality and keenly priced, love them 8)
There is no "one brand" for me.
I've got 3 Seiko's & 2 IWC's (looking for a 3717 to make it 3) I've also had quite a few Sinn's & 6 Damasko's so those 4 would be my favourite brands.
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
Originally Posted by ArcofZen
+1 :)
Like you, I've been attracted to IWC (mainly older stuff like the 3536) but the brand I was consistently drawn back to was not Seiko, but Omega (vintage).
I have a couple of Seiko, one of which (SKX009) is my trusty beater.
I think I'm safe from the red hot Seiko branding iron, but not the Omega one :wink:
funny and very good post Jussi :lol: 8)
dont know if this makes sense, i guess i was never a wis as a lot of brands have become just nice
watches and come across as empty and taking themselves far too serious, seiko's the one brand left i get exited about and can be hardcore
but always a bit of fun.
You cannot beat a classic Seiko for bang for bucks.
Like you, I've been attracted to IWC (mainly older stuff like the 3536) but the brand I was consistently drawn back to was not Seiko, but Omega (vintage).
I have a couple of Seiko, one of which (SKX009) is my trusty beater.
I think I'm safe from the red hot Seiko branding iron, but not the Omega one :wink:
I have impeccable taste and have been drawn to the same type of watches as Bob and Toshi san, IWC (vinage), Omega (vintage), a smattering of Seiko (you can't beat the value for money of the 6138s), Rolex, Blancpain, Stowa, and even the super rare Langel....and a few others to boot :lol:
I love a watch for its design and (maybe) history....but only buy watches that I really want to wear, whether they are cheap or expensive...
+1 more
I'm ALL about Seikos. Rich history too. Those 7Sxx movements are nearly impossible to kill, even if they're ignored for twenty to thirty years.
I've gone through a number of watches, but my SKX007 is the ONLY watch in my occasionally-changing collection over the years that has NEVER left the barn. :D
Dan
Hey good post. I too am a Seiko lover out of choice (mainly) and financially (partly), as I seem to only really like the higher end swiss stuff that I could never afford, you know Omegas, IWC, Panerai etc. But there's a lot of mid range Seikos that I like and can afford :) Plus being a Seiko I like the stealth aspect, even if I owned a Spacewalk nobody I know would care cos it says Seiko on it. If I save and get a Aquatimer or P&O (the dream) It would be some kind of big deal to them. I know I shouldn't care, but I probably would, but it doesn't stop me dreaming. :D
From the Monster(s) through to the Grand Seiko and Arctura there's something for everybody. And, as has already been mentioned, a very rich history.
All bases covered.
I'm a Seiko man, and not ashamed to admit it. I'm sure that I read somewhere on this very forum that they have their own refinery to produce their lubricants.
You can't get more in-house than that.
Regards
Ian
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Love the older Seikos, The GS, KS and Lm especially, may have to start hunting around for a couple!
I think there is no doubt that Seiko has a respected name with broad appeal. Looking at my own collection, the Seikos outnumber any other maker by at least 2:1. I've always been fond of Seiko, and find myself returning to them over and over just as many others do. I wish I had the budget to shop for IWC, but I don't know if I would get more satisfaction than owning a Seiko, Precista or MKII.
.
Overall, Japanese designs are nowhere near as fine or stylish as Swiss designs. The Swiss have the backgrounds of French, German, and Italian styles to work with … whereas the Japanese can only be … well … Japanese.
john
Every watch a story.
That was a fun read... I too can relate to your story, started w/seikos, then to swiss ones, but my grail is still a Seiko...
I guess I'll remain on the dark side. Last year while in Switzerland I was amazed at how many watch shops there were. A lot of them didn't just stock their own breed, they even sold Seiko's. They just didn't have the same pull. And even though I'm not a Rolex man through and through I had to admit the Rolex's just sparkled and made everything else look second rate. That one trip ended up costing me a lot more than I thought it would, as it led to my first Rolex purchase.
I like Seikos and have two at the moment, but to answer the question in the title, its got to be Rolex for me. That, combined with owning a BMW, probably makes me the ultimate c**k, but I don't care what other people think, my Mum says I'm brilliant! :lol:
I would love to love Seiko.
Really.
Primarily for what they have done in their past, the quality of movements etc.
But they don't seem to have a backbone (for years now), and I want a strong partner.
They've lost the plot completely imho.
Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.
Very interesting point John, a key problem with some of the Grand Seikos. They maybe built fantastically, but they do look a little naff compared to swiss watches.
I tend to agree to a degree with the lost plot although that is arguable...
...arguable because I think they know exactly what they are doing - they are going after the SWISS scalps. It is thus us who are stuck and do not want SEIKO change. It is understandable. I would not want it either. Just please keep doing the tool JDM models and as is well. But, I am afraid that on a unifying world with unifying tastes future SEIKO´s willl be pale reflections of what they used to be like. SD or not.
I think they've opened a market that's just too big for them (or any other watch company) to handle.
Some strategic decisions were just wrong imho. They have destroyed their own image with their "cheap crap" and "teenager watches", well, at least here in Europe.
They want to go upmarket now, but they don't take enough time for it (not speaking of the financial troubles). It's just not enough to open flagship stores.
They need to create desire. And they need to be more sexy.
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.
i dont think so, looking at these 2 nothing naff about either. but i'd take the gs if i had the choiceVery interesting point John, a key problem with some of the Grand Seikos. They maybe built fantastically, but they do look a little naff compared to swiss watches.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=88593
http://www32.ocn.ne.jp/~kseiya/gs/history-e.html
Rolex crown for me I guess - it is by far the more abundant in my collection - sold my last Seiko a couple of weeks ago.
Ive always liked Rolex and although there are other makes with watches I desire - I would always fill the Rolex gap 1st - and now it is virtually filled.
Seiko are seen as a good quality watch maker - but like some others they, to me (and I don't follow them - so excuse any ignorance on my part) seem to have a few stand out pieces and then just an unbelievably huge product line.
One of the reasons I always stayed with Rolex is because the new watches always looked like the originals - easy for people to copy though - even Omega kept changing there models too quickly for me (Moon watch aside) at least now they are updating the SMP300 and evolving the planet ocean - which I hope they continue.
Aquatimer is one of my all time favortie looking watches.
The worst thing about this WIS thing - is having to choose between one or another (or three others etc. in some cases) but saving up - or having to flip to get what you feel you want need - its all part of the desease!
It's just a matter of time...
I don't think Seiko ever had a plot. They are everybody's and anybody's bitch. Anytime the fashion says jump, they ask, how high?
The problem with Seiko (as I have always said) is that all their watches (from their £35 models to their £3K+) look like Seikos. Even the ones they re-brand or give to others to design they still look like Seiko. It's the Sicko disease I tell you. :blackeye:Very interesting point John, a key problem with some of the Grand Seikos. They maybe built fantastically, but they do look a little naff compared to swiss watches.
As far as the GS range goes (apart from a couple of the sports models) the all look like the watch your grandfather or a banker would wear and I don’t know any bankers that would want to wear a Seiko.
john
Every watch a story.
More pics: http://www.foroderelojes.es/showthread.php?t=14057
The SRQ001J
As an example take this monstrosity. The same fine-ish 8R28 movement as the Ananta Auto Chrono and a cousin of the one Tag Heuer is currently ebauche-ing for the Silverstone. What is this design? Who is it for? A teen-ager would be embarrassed to wear it. :pukeleft: :pukeleft: :pukeleft:
john
Every watch a story.
Which in itself wouldn't be a huge problem (all Panerai tend to look like Panerai, after all) if only they had developed the luxury side of their brand outside of Asia. At a certain pricepoint a watch purchase becomes more aspirational than anything else. Unfortunately for Seiko, to date the only area they have really promoted the very highest end of their range is somewhere that western brands have the most cache. Most Japanese I know would rather wear a Swiss watch simply because it is Swiss, and not Japanese.
Yeah... well, I think they are doing pretty good. Mind you that the Asian market is pretty big as is the American market as well. European... It will interesting. I agree with Mike above in that they should perhaps choose a few key areas instead of their everything-for-everybody approach if they want to further their image. Then again I guess what SEIKO is attempting to do in Europe is to become the "thinking man Rolex" of the new millennia, not much different from what IWC used to be like before they were raped by the Richemont Group. As to John´s remark on what kind of a banker wants to wear a SEIKO I guess the answer would be the same kind that used to wear IWC´s when they offering represented the most technologically advanced best price per buck with the added bonus of being a bit more discreet than the usual wrist wear in the upper echelons of the financially well-placed´s food chain.
More pics: http://www.foroderelojes.es/showthread.php?t=14057
The SRQ001J
As an example take this monstrosity. The same fine-ish 8R28 movement as the Ananta Auto Chrono and a cousin of the one Tag Heuer is currently ebauche-ing for the Silverstone. What is this design? Who is it for? A teen-ager would be embarrassed to wear it. :pukeleft: :pukeleft: :pukeleft:
john
Oh, and pretty many of the Asian bankers as well. You know, those guys who own half of the Americas..:!:
Oh, the old market is growing old you say? Dont mind - there will be new blood.
They want SWISS you say? Yeah. For now.
But it is the eternal fate of the cream of the crop amongst the idealistic youngling that when matured they become conservative as their fathers once were.
Thus nothing changes.
I like many watches, don't think the make has ever made a diference. I have an AP, but was really wowed by a friend's Seiko Kinetic the other day his partner bought him. It weighed a ton, despite being Kinetic, superb build & was not PVD, but more of a gun metal colour. I was really impressed.
Paul
GOT...TO...KILL...CAPTAIN STUPID!
i have two brands i keep coming back to, i have been through several phases of owning no watches and the several watches by both brands - seiko and tissot, plus a soft spot for poljot.
omega and rolex remain my grail brands.
ktmog6uk
marchingontogether!
AgreedI don't think Seiko ever had a plot. They are everybody's and anybody's bitch. Anytime the fashion says jump, they ask, how high?
I think you have hit the nail on the head there John. I am a big Seiko fan (mainly vintage) but your words ring true
Also true.
Which is why IMO Seiko will never usurp the Western manufacturers at the top of the scale.
Some WIS delight in their top of the range watches but it is a mere drop in the ocean as far as sales go and even the Japanese still seem entranced by Swiss watches if their watch mags/books are anything to go by.
People have been going on about Seiko eclipsing Swiss makers for as long as I have been interested (30 odd years) but it has never happened yet and I doubt it ever will.
Cheers,
Neil.
True. But they will become very strong if not reign some niche markets that used to be in command of the Swiss manufacturers. Financially the meat is, and will always be because of the economics of scale, in the masses.
They are already very strong and have been for many, many years.True. But they will become very strong if not reign some niche markets that used to be in command of the Swiss manufacturers. Financially the meat is, and will always be because of the economics of scale, in the masses.
I would bet that Seiko on their own sell more watches every year than the whole of the Swiss industry. :shock:
It is that sheer ubiquitousness that keeps their image down IMO.
Cheers,
Neil.
I'd love to see a homage of this, Seiko's very first wristie, with a fine mechanical hand-wound or a clean hand-wound spring drive movement.
john
Every watch a story.
Not a bad idea John... not a bad at all...
I'd love to see a homage of this, Seiko's very first wristie, with a fine mechanical hand-wound or a clean hand-wound spring drive movement.
john
...but it's never going to happen.
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.
how do you mean John, all seiko models look the same, or they should look like another brand ?
karl
It would probably look like this here :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.
[quote="mr1973"]It would probably look like this here :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: it looked like this. SCVM001
http://www.gmtplusnine.com/2009/01/08/s ... all-began/
i like the look of this one.
I have done a quick search in TZ-UK:
Seiko generates 41728 matches
Omega generates 44898 matches
Rolex generates 51643 matches
IWC generates 16056 matches
So Rolex continuous to atract a lot of atention, whether we like it or not :roll: . Not sure if this figures add anything to the discusion.
Turning to Seiko, I do agree it is a severely undervalued brand, but I think that it is a direct consequence of producing watches all along the value curve. I mean, Ferrari does not make city cars and that puts it above, say, Audi or Mercedes, despite the fact that they have produced very good sport cars along the last decades...
I love some of the ideas they had. For instance, the Seiko Neil has, the one with a regulation through a screw in the outer case. That was brilliant! Why nobody copies it?
Thanks for those pics from GMT+9.
Haven't been over there for a long while and glad to see my old loony Seiko hotshot friends PeteW and Mart are still there. :)
I love looking at and collecting old Seiko stuff when I come across it.
Here's my oldest Seiko piece a 1950's Unique.
Crap really :lol: but interesting as you just don't see Seiko stuff of this age very often.
Cheers,
Neil.
This one?
One piece case so a good idea IMO.
Cheers,
Neil.
Yes, that one. Not easy to spot though. I have been trying to get one but you see few of those...Ah, yes, and a monoblock case as well :) .This one?
One piece case so a good idea IMO.
Swiss watches....Very interesting point John, a key problem with some of the Grand Seikos. They maybe built fantastically, but they do look a little naff compared to swiss watches.
Cheers :twisted:
^^^ :lol: exactly
i mean show me a naff seiko and i'll show you an even sillier swiss watch. plenty of ££££ swiss stuff out there lies about where its made and claims history it doesnt own.
couple of pages of GS to compare how naff. :lol: if they were swiss watches some would drone on about timeless classic designs etc..blah blah :lol:Swiss watches....Very interesting point John, a key problem with some of the Grand Seikos. They maybe built fantastically, but they do look a little naff compared to swiss watches.
Cheers :twisted:
http://www.csce.uark.edu/~jgauch/photos ... index.html
http://www.csce.uark.edu/~jgauch/photos ... index.html
It looks this thread has been hijacked and no-one is answering the question.
Bastards :lol:
:lol:
Well said! :thumbright:
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