A bit long winded this in some respects, so the condensed version follows. I'm very close, (like in the morning) to doing a deal on a vintage replica Panerai MM Now this is not your Chinese made average tat, but a custom made piece by VDB. In essence, it has an 8 day Angelus motor, a prototype model specifically, is dialed as a MM, in a non crown device Luminor case.
It looks the dogs doobries, imo, isn't cheap by any means, (three noughts) and i fancy it. It is not claiming to be real but the intentions are obvious, not to deceive? but to induce a smile for it's owner. It can be argued, and has before, it's more a 'vintage Panerai' than factory re-issues are, with very basic Unitas movements in them. It naturally has plenty of WABI, so i could relax, by my standards, and enjoy it but i'm slightly concerned, that i could be mistaken for a wannabe sad old geezer :? and that if i wanted to sell it, quite likely with me, i could possibly lose some serious wedge on it. There is a member here who has one of these VDB pieces and clearly he enjoys it and i believe has another en-route, so they please someone already :wink:
Most of this watch is genuine vintage, just not as one original piece and if it were the 'real deal', it would likely have four or possibly five noughts attached to it, funds i don't have spare, for a watch anyway. So here it is, what do you think?
Looks superb to me, and just a bit of (expensive) fun for the owner - not harming anyone as far as I'm concerned - you've done your bit for Panerai over the years! :lol:
Have seriously considered a VDB myself and probably will get on someday. I've no idea about residuals though.
Do it.
You wont like this but its like my Brabus Merc!!
But its your wrist and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, by virtue of the fact you are asking means its not the one!
RIAC
I think it looks the dogs but i think the price is too high, my 2p 8)
Originally Posted by 100thmonkey
Hmm, i'm not convinced that by asking a simple question it's not the one :!:
Didn't you enquire as to the MPG/BHP and residuals of your Brabus :?:
I just think that you have doubt and are asking for assurance, and I think its appropriate to say that your nature dictates that things must be 100%.
So is this 100%, you sure its the one, because if you are not then it will leave you empty, potentially disappointed, and selling on!
That said, why die wondering!
RIAC
Well, with 'Marina Militare' emblazoned on the dial it's very clearly claiming to be something it isn't :D
Surely the use of the Panerai trademark renders it just an expensive fake :?:
I say go for it, one more of us on the homage trail.
:lol: hardly comparative.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Only difference is price, none of them are gen, but if you feel better paying big bucks, I say go for it.:lol: hardly comparative.
I would say that it will NOT, keep better time,have better sapphire glass, have better lume, have better steel, have better WR.
The only thing it will have is a bigger price tag, but hay oh, as I said go for without delay. :roll:
that almost defines the problem, doesn;t it - can there be a hierarchy within the homage market? From the reply directly above, it would appear yes.
To the OP - its a tricky one. If its others' perceptions you're worried about, I'm imagining its only the WISs that would care to comment, so perhaps not too great an issue. To those WISs you can give the spiel and attain an approving nod - but is it the fact you'll have to spout the spiel before you feel comfortable that is the problem? If so, then its a no go I think. To coin a clarkson automotive analogy - like buying the Porsche Cayman and spending the rest of your days explaining why you didn't buy the 911 ;)
If you have to constantly justify owning it to others, and their perception influences your enjoyment of the piece, then I think you'll wear it less and less. If you appreciate it for what it is and always will - pull the trigger.
Acceptable to whom?When is an 'Homage' acceptable or is it ever?
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Here is an expensive Homage -
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Panerai-PAM-20...item518f0673ff
Shame they could not get the dial right though :cry:
Seriously most watches on this site are homages of something else - including most of Eddies an no one bats an eye. Time to move on I think and be a little less judgemental.
As for residuals since when have WIS's worried about such things :D , however FYI
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Its a brave new world, if you want it to be :D .
Andy
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Excellent, balanced reply. I agree. If you're comfortable with it, and your ownership of it then crack on. If you're worried about having to justify yourself the whole time then don't bother. Personally I'd happily own one, enjoy the fact that a lot of time and effort has gone into creating a watch fully to my specification and never worry about others' thoughts, but everyone is different.
Exactly, I don't know why people get so hung up on such things. If you like the watch, buy it. We really can get our heads all screwed up on brand history crap, after all,it's all just the marketing boys having a good laugh at us anyway. :P
That's not what I meant Paul.Only difference is price, none of them are gen, but if you feel better paying big bucks, I say go for it.:lol: hardly comparative.
I would say that it will NOT, keep better time,have better sapphire glass, have better lume, have better steel, have better WR.
The only thing it will have is a bigger price tag, but hay oh, as I said go for without delay. :roll:
The areas of timekeeping, sapphire glass, lume and steel are all distractions that you are using to justify your viewpoint and preferences (which we all do, since it's our money etc.)
On the one hand you have a damn good attempt to be faithful to the original it is based on using the Angelus movement, plexi crystal etc. The other is not (to me at least). So it does have more than a higher price tag.
Personally I would not go this route but can respect why others would :wink:
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Tricky.
An homage to a discontinued classic is one thing - e.g. PRS14, PRS50. I see this as a bit like a cover version of a classic song. In most cases it will be seen for what it is and will do no harm.
An homage to something that is essentially still in production (in virtually the same format/design) is edging a bit close to fake for my liking and I would chose to avoid such products. I have this view of all the Panerai homages including, i'm afraid to say, the PRS20, along with others like the Steinhart & Alpha look-a-likes. I see this as simply trying to cash in on the success of someone else's brand investment and resultant popularity.
All my opinion and not an attempt to pass judgement on anyone else.
D.
The only person who needs to answer this question is you, Baz, if you think this could be what you're looking for.
From what I've seen VDB seem to put the watches together well, but having "Panerai" engraved on the caseback, and "Marina Militare" on the dial, would be enough to put me off TBH. But that's just my 2p, and I accept that others might have a different opinion :wink:
Only difference is price, none of them are gen, but if you feel better paying big bucks, I say go for it.:lol: hardly comparative.
I would say that it will NOT, keep better time,have better sapphire glass, have better lume, have better steel, have better WR.
The only thing it will have is a bigger price tag, but hay oh, as I said go for without delay. :roll:
Hmm not really. That like comparing a chinese kit car copy of the AC Cobra with a one built by Lynx. They are both replicas, however one will be made from Ali, the other from paper mache, one will have a 427 V8 Ford engine, with Holly double pumpers, the other - god only knows, one will cost £60K the other £60 quid, one will hit 180mph, the other a wall when the brakes fail. They are both be replica's, but not all replicas are created equal, and you are kidding yourself if you think they are.
I think its fair to say that replicas/copies are not ideal, however it comes down to available cash - I would love a genuine 3646 or 6152, however unless I can find £60k+ it is not goining to happen. Just like the people would cannot afford a Omega 600, might get a Ocean 7. No harm no foul in my book.
Andy
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
+1 i am afraid, shame as if it had a sterile dial and no panerai on the caseback IMO it would be a great watch, as i really like the movement.
cheers
mike :wink:
Heres my thoughts based on this post
http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=107645
Ahh that feels better
RIAC
I love my SM300 homage and I dare anyone here to call it a fake. :bom:
I think you know my thoughts on this Baz, there's nothing wrong with a hommage, - as long as that is really what it is. It shouldn't try to be something it's not.
I use this definition of hommage (just been quoting it on the other thread about hommage watches)
"Hommage" - tribute paid to an artist, writer, composer, etc., as by incorporating some characteristic idiom or style of the person in one's own work.
VdB puts an enormous amount of time and effort into his watches but none of the components ever came from a Panerai factory and so shouldn't (IMHO) therefore have the name inscribed on them. that's just wrong. If it was a gen vintage 6152 case or back then he may have some justification but not otherwise.
His work is good enough to stand on its own and he should be proud to engrave his brand on his work. Until he does, he's still just part of the rep watch scene that he actively supports.
Very nice summary. Agree
Suppose you got hold of a vintage Vacheron minute repeater movement which originally came out of a gold pocket watch, the case having been scrapped and weighed in (many were). You decide to commission a custom wristwatch with a gold case and quality dial, upon which is printed "Vacheron". Now clearly the watch never left the Vacheron factory like this but it is an original Vacheron movement. How would you classify such a watch?
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Though not too keen on the MM writing either, I am with Seadog: The different pieces that make up the watch sounds good and should be able to stand on their own without the MM on the dial.
It is your watch - enjoy the heck out of it.
BTW I think the seller in the second eflay link that Andyg posted in this thread has used a pic from Konrad Knirims book - bet he will not be too pleased about that.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT
:lol: :lol: You crack me up :mrgreen:
I'd say fake personally when it comes to Vacheron.
If the dial wasn't printed Vacheron it would just be a frankenwatch. :lol:
However as we all know many fine watches came in Dennison cases but were of course completely original spec.
Cheers,
Neil.
As regards the original VDB.
With the Panerai marks as shown ......... Fake. It is simply not a Panerai.
If Sterile.......................Homage.
Cheers,
Neil.
There are VERY few watches about these days which can be considered 'pure blood' with a completely unique design. Most stuff around either takes influences from, or is a complete copy of other designs. Where the line is crossed is where a brand name is used on a watch that was not manufactured by that brand. This it is then a fake, not a homage. I agree with Mike that the VDB would have been sooo much more acceptable if it did not have Panerai on the caseback. Surely one could be ordered with a plain non-display back like the originals?
Cheers,
Peter.
That'd be a frankenwatch (much as I hate the term). An expensive one mind, but still purporting to be something it isn't. A bit like one of those "Ferraris" built out of an MR2 with a genuine Ferrari engine under the bonnet - you can spend as much as you like on expensive finishing touches but it simply isn't a Ferrari.
D.
Not actually correct - some of the parts he uses are genuine and correct. However if you know anything about vintage Panerai you will also know that the vast majority of parts never originally came from the factory.
Cases - supplied by Rolex (but most likely made by Dennison)
Movements - Supplied by Rolex (but were in fact refinished Cortebert) or Angelus.
Crowns - supplied by Rolex - not sure who made them
Plexi - dont know however quite specialised so possibly sub-contracted.
Dials - some were supplied by Rolex, other made in house.
Hands - came with the movements so either Rolex or Cortebert.
As for VDB, he does also make his own watch designs as well, although I am sure someone would argue that because they feature a screw down crown, have hands, lugs, a strap and a movement they must be a direct rip off of other manufactures. :roll:
Finally people should also know that the iconic 3646 was also a Hommage to the a cushion Oyster pocket watch which Rolex designed in the early 30's - all Panerai did was weld some lugs to it and add a easier to read dial (similar in design to a lot of WW1 trench watches). In which case does that make all Radiomir Panerai hommages of Rolex - I think not.
Andy
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
If all Panerai did was assemble the watch, then anyone can assemble a watch of subcontracted parts and if some of them comes from the same subcontractor that Panerai uses, he can write Panerai on hte watch? I don't know if that is what you meant to say, but that is the way i read it.
As ever i suppose, fors and againsts, though cutting up a working timepiece to make a point, struck me as a little extreme. (whoever did it)
I'll proceed in my chosen way, but i think i'll just do it quietly and without any drama.
Input appreciated, thanks :)
VDB will make whatever you want, for FYI the original 8 day watches produced by Panerai were display back - so the one shown is correct. The solid case backs are mostly found on the Rolex Cal 618 watches.
Andy
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Leaving all else aside:
Does the watch intend to decieve the buyer (either now or in the future) into thinking it's something it's not?
If the answer to that question is in any way affirmative then it's a fake. :)
Thanks for correcting me Andy! As ever on this forum, the knowledge of other members humbles me :)VDB will make whatever you want, for FYI the original 8 day watches produced by Panerai were display back - so the one shown is correct. The solid case backs are mostly found on the Rolex Cal 618 watches.
Andy
NO - VDB marks each watch with a number of "tells" including his own serial numbers (unique and nothing like the range used by Panerai).
However if someone was to supply him with a genuine case, dial and a Rolex 618 - well - would it be a Francken, Replica or fake or refinished original - don't know.
We also have to remember that that these watches are nearly 70 year olds and the original Italian company which made them no longer exists, hence will have had all sorts of people doing repairs to them (during and after the war).
Andy
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
:DThanks for correcting me Andy! As ever on this forum, the knowledge of other members humbles me :)VDB will make whatever you want, for FYI the original 8 day watches produced by Panerai were display back - so the one shown is correct. The solid case backs are mostly found on the Rolex Cal 618 watches.
Andy
For more information get or borrow a copy of Vintage Panerai by Ehlers/Wiegman - great read.
Andy
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
In my view when homage sticks to the actual meaning of the word it is perfectly acceptable. ie when inspiration is taken and tribute paid
As soon as their is an element of deceipt, where someone engaging with the watch/painting/music or whatever is intended to think it is something it is not (in this case when the brand name gets involved I think the line is crossed) then I feel it slides out of homage territory. If the un-trained or semi-trained eye would believe it is the original I'm uncomfortable.
So like people who have had a nose or boob job or a replacement hip. Blimey you would not many friends if you kept calling them Francken :D .That'd be a frankenwatch (much as I hate the term). An expensive one mind, but still purporting to be something it isn't. A bit like one of those "Ferraris" built out of an MR2 with a genuine Ferrari engine under the bonnet - you can spend as much as you like on expensive finishing touches but it simply isn't a Ferrari.
D.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I don't like a watch that pretends to be something it is not, the word for that is fake, fraken watches are just as bad in my view however i accept that people like to customise, Seiko mods for example but becuase of price i do think there is a double standard.
Making and marking a watch as per an original when it is not, is a fake.
Homage watches - if the watch is no longer in production and the homage makes no patent infringments and does not use the name or markings i think it is ok TBH
There are plenty of companies that use existing production designs and re-badge them, Stienhert, Alpha etc etc and to be honest i think that what they are doing is largely design theft and for me i think that is wrong.
Dave
Using the car illustration again, if you have a Rolls Royce engine from a scrapper and have a chassis and body built for it, it would be a Rolls engined special not a Rolls Royce.
If you have the original chassis to go with the engine however and have a body made, it can be called a restoration and therefore a Rolls Royce.
I know it's the woodsman's axe all over again.
Much of what I get asked for is re-casing old 34mm watches into 40mm plus gold cases using movements like the IWC 89, Omega 551 or 751, but that doesn't mean I can sell it as an IWC or Omega.
I'd say the watch you've posted is a fake. I don't mind the fact it has Marina Militare on the dial. What kills it for me is the Officine Panerai on the case back.
So let me see if I have this right.
The Original Panerai's were italian and the ones everybody really really wants are the original Radiomir and Luminor watches crica 1940 - 1990 which were made in incredibly small numbers and the original WWII Marina Millitare frogman issue watches which were mostly Rolex bitza's
In 1995 Sly Stalone buys a Panerai and has a few special edition ones made for his mates Including Arnie.
Richemont - never slow to see an opportunity buys up Officine Panerai in 1997 and effectively starts to make copies of the original watches in Switzerland? But uses ETA movements in the main not even Rolex or Tudor ones?
Richemont now control the flow of the Swiss Panerais onto the market each year and make loads of limited edition, special edition, first edition (Sound like the Watch Commander don't you think? :D ) watches to maintain rareity and exclusivity?
If I am right in what I have written, and I am happy to be corrected as I know nothing of Panerai, then I can't see the problem with homage watches of the original Italian types of this particular brand. :D
SBIII is an hommage. If it had 'IWC' or 'Shaffhausen' (sp?) on the dial it would be a fake.
So, if your wife got a boop job, would she then be Dolly Parton? :mrgreen:So like people who have had a nose or boob job or a replacement hip. Blimey you would not many friends if you kept calling them Francken :D .That'd be a frankenwatch (much as I hate the term). An expensive one mind, but still purporting to be something it isn't. A bit like one of those "Ferraris" built out of an MR2 with a genuine Ferrari engine under the bonnet - you can spend as much as you like on expensive finishing touches but it simply isn't a Ferrari.
D.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I think it's a fake, you might not think so and your intention may not be to deceive, but a future seller could easily
think of a chippendale chair;-
not many left, hugely valuable, most people can't afford them, to make new ones in the same style, homage
to make new ones in the same style and age them to look old, well even if the original owner accepted them for what they are, they'd be called a fake
if they had chippendale stamped on them, then there is no question they're a fake, ok i know he didn't stamp them, but you get the drift
even if the builder and original owner don't intend it to be, using trademarks that don;t belong to you makes it a fake, making it look old when it's not, only makes the argument stronger, i don;t buy this, he puts marks on it, if it really was meant not to deceive it would have made in 2010 by stamped in clearly visible hard to remove places.
if i was to get a fake rolex, put an old rolex movement, get the dial painted in tritium and add comex then beat the watch up, if i knew it wasn't real does that mean it's not a fake?
I am pretty sure if panerai knew what he was doing, he'd face legal action, simple acid test as to what it is, why not ask panerai?
if you have to have to explain to other panerai fans what it is and why you think it's a homage, deep down you know it's wrong, like people with homage or recreation cars end up explaining them and trying to justify them because if they don;t it's a fake. The owners of the real cars never have to do it.
A mod is OK I suppose - as in what the OP describes, but a straight fake/copy/replica/homage is a travesty to all owners of the authentic/genuine product.
So if the Lotus Car company as it exists today made a brand new Lotus MkIII for example would that be a copy or a fake? Or would it just be another Lotus mkIII?
Or is the Caterham 7 a copy a homage or a fake?
But what's "authentic" about a modern, Richemont produced, Panerai?
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