Reply With QuoteNot sure about Rolex increases, but there is very likely to be a 2.5% increase with the expected rise in VAT to 20% :(
Have they gone the way of the dodo, at least for the remainder of this economic malaise? After numerous increases over the last few years, they seem to have well and truly stalled - before Christmas AD's were talking about an expected Feb/Mar increase, all that materialised was a VAT related increase. What are the chances of another healthy increase before the end of the year?
Not sure about Rolex increases, but there is very likely to be a 2.5% increase with the expected rise in VAT to 20% :(
It is crazy i rememeber my gmt II was £2050 when i bought it now there nearly 4k crazy my yachtmaster was £4500 no they 6k
Yeah but when you sell them you can get all your money back. :DOriginally Posted by B16JUS
Cheers,
Neil.
Yeah but when you sell them you can get all your money back. :D
Previously yes - but not necessarily in future, for anything bought recently, if recent hyper inflation has indeed become a thing of the past.
I was talking about his specific situation :P especially as he has mooted selling them.Yeah but when you sell them you can get all your money back. :D
Previously yes - but not necessarily in future, for anything bought recently, if recent hyper inflation has indeed become a thing of the past.
Cheers,
Neil.
Which is :idea: why the upwards spiral is a múst; buyer´s confidence.Yeah but when you sell them you can get all your money back. :D
So yes, Rolex prices nééd in general maintain a steady upward trend, ideally just keeping ahead of inflation and standard of living.
There is not too much worry needed Lomax99. The Asian market has sóó much potential for many years yet.
So what if you do not make a profit or are a few pennies short for the model yoú chose after some years of wearing it? Just don´t expect to be able to sell it at a profit when you walk out of the shop.
Since Rolex is pretty much the measure of all things ´ticking´, in the present western economic situation the Asian growth market for Rolex is therefor all positive for a sigificant chunk of the industry.
Recent price hikes have been ridiculous in current economic climate, not just Rolex but other brands like Omega. What used to be expensive but affordable luxuries are now becoming out of reach apart from secondhand market. Anyone buying a new Rolex is going to take a hit, vintage market has also taken a battering.
Why not - happened before and the prices never went down?Previously yes - but not necessarily in future, for anything bought recently, if recent hyper inflation has indeed become a thing of the past.Yeah but when you sell them you can get all your money back. :D
For sure a few blow hards paid way over the odds for some recent releases (GV Milgauss, LV Sub and DSSD) which have proved to be foolhardy punts which fell for the hype. Notwithstanding these blips whsat do you base your observation on?
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
[quote=Chris_in_the_UK]Why not - happened before and the prices never went down?Previously yes - but not necessarily in future, for anything bought recently, if recent hyper inflation has indeed become a thing of the past.Yeah but when you sell them you can get all your money back. :D
For sure a few blow hards paid way over the odds for some recent releases (GV Milgauss, LV Sub and DSSD) which have proved to be foolhardy punts which fell for the hype. Notwithstanding these blips whsat do you base your observation on?[/quote:27vokdz3]
Primarily on the fact that if the above gmt II example is correct, then some of the, perhaps more mainstream(?) models have nearly doubled in what presumably is a comparatively short period of time.
I am not expecting prices to come down, I was just speculating that the period of 'hyper' inflation may well have run it's course and that it might well be quite some time before we see the scale and/or frequency of increases experienced in the relatively recent past.
Did you buy a special keyboard at the same time?
The dealers love to play the 'iminent price rise' card to try and persuade folks to buy now!
One of the key drivers behind the Rolex price rises was the weak £, which has now stabilised.
If anyone cares to look back, there have been periods between Rolex price rises of a few years, so I wouldn`t be surprised to see prices stay put for some time.
As for the likely VAT rise.... :roll: :roll: :roll:...wouldn`t surprise me :(
Paul
[quote=Lomax99]Primarily on the fact that if the above gmt II example is correct, then some of the, perhaps more mainstream(?) models have nearly doubled in what presumably is a comparatively short period of time.Why not - happened before and the prices never went down?Previously yes - but not necessarily in future, for anything bought recently, if recent hyper inflation has indeed become a thing of the past.Yeah but when you sell them you can get all your money back. :D
For sure a few blow hards paid way over the odds for some recent releases (GV Milgauss, LV Sub and DSSD) which have proved to be foolhardy punts which fell for the hype. Notwithstanding these blips whsat do you base your observation on?
I am not expecting prices to come down, I was just speculating that the period of 'hyper' inflation may well have run it's course and that it might well be quite some time before we see the scale and/or frequency of increases experienced in the relatively recent past.[/quote:1hlhov8o]
But he GMT II example used is a case in point - it is worth more than the £2050 paid originally.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
This was a debate a wee while ago I think the numbers do the talking re value however in respect of new list eventually you pass a point where sheer demand alone is not enough to hold up residuals and at that point the fix is slowing production however as has been stated far east is still hungry and rolex are adding capacity
Huertecilla wrote:
TKH wrote:
rolex vfm if you factor in residuals and sheer build quality
Residuals when bought new? You will have to calculate that for me.
Take a 14060M. New price versus say 4 years later, average daily use, so definite signs ofwear and the odd scratch though no real dents nor damage.
How much depreciation would that be? The watch will still be worth a lot of money but one will have written off a considerable sum too.
By all means calculate both % and actual amount. Percentage wise Rolex does pretty well but in actual coins not so good at all.
You can buy a luxury alternative for the amount lost. Ok, one can argue wether that ís an alternative but that would then be about the perceived value again.
I can understand buying a 6 y.o. and reselling at about no loss 2 years later. That is reatining residual value. However...
This is nothing thát special. Many, mány watches can be bought that would give this result. Being worth a lot less they would cost you that much less in loss of return on your investment in the watch so be more economical
Ok will try to calculate for you
Rolex October 2004 price list
14060 Sumbariner list price (pre discount) £ 1'970 value now £ 2'200 approx
16600 Sea Dweller list price (pre discount) £ 2'440 value now £ 3'000 approx
16610 Submariner list price (pre discount) £ 2'350 value now £ 2'700 approx
16710 GMT Master II list price (pre discount) £ 2'350 value now £ 2'700 approx
service costs not factored in but they aren't for any brands mentioned
but you have to agree NO amount lost which is nice
Until
TBH I would not consider this indicative of much other than some of the retailers are trying to clear stuff that does not sell due to it's very limited appeal.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
How would a buyer know they are being "ripped off" as you say if all they do is look at the prices in an AD?
For most people I think they decide they want a nice watch, expect to have to pay a lot, and they do so. The fact that "a lot" is now slightly more than it was is either irrelevant or unknown because most buyers I don't believe track the prices enough to notice.
Without frequenting places like this there is no way of really knowing what the price was a few years ago and whether the price rise is actually justified or not, which we can't agree on anyway.
"I forget who it was that recommended men for their soul's good to do each day two things they disliked ... it is a precept that I have followed scrupulously; for every day I have got up and I have gone to bed."
People have been saying that since I have been on watch fora. :lol: Which is a long time.
You probably can. :P
Cheers,
Neil.
50% off breitlings,cartier, omega and a good few others has been reality for years during sales at numerous retailers - some other brands simply wouldn't allow it.
It is true that there are better discounts to be had at the moment - but a lot of retailers have their heads...... and are ignoring the situation and offering no more off than they did 2 years ago - their watches their choice.
It's just a matter of time...
I docovered the Gold/Steel Daytona I bought less than 3 years ago for £6k is now priced at over £10k :shock:
Blimey, as investments go, that seems rather pleasant!
I bought a 2007 14060 last month for £2500: fresh Bexley service, with all boxes and papers from the AD in Southampton. I certainly thought the price looked very reasonable, but the real point was that I had spent several weeks trying to find one, and as soon as they come up, they seem to go again, so I was chuffed to say the least! Really enjoying having it on, but didn't think a lot of the kids I taught yesterday who asked if I was wearing a 'Citizen' like theirs. :evil:
i bought my my ss daytona last nov for 6170 just after all the crazy price rises, DAM. HAHA
never mind i love it anyway
andy
Err, no. Priced retail at over £10k but on the secondhand market will not acheive the same price as the equivalent SS daytona.Blimey, as investments go, that seems rather pleasant!
Really, how come?Err, no. Priced retail at over £10k but on the secondhand market will not acheive the same price as the equivalent SS daytona.Blimey, as investments go, that seems rather pleasant!
[quote=trick cyclist]Really, how come?[/quote:w3i7ykzr]Err, no. Priced retail at over £10k but on the secondhand market will not acheive the same price as the equivalent SS daytona.Blimey, as investments go, that seems rather pleasant!
Not as sought after.
Cheers,
Neil.
Could it just be, that Rolex watches were too cheap for a long while, and they finally caught on to it :blackeye:
There's a reverse price war going on between the major brands. It's the result of the massive uptake in fashion consumerism caused by the easy credit mindset and the general publics ever growing lack of interest in being practical. You used to be able to buy a watch for the price of an expensive watch but now they cost the price of a car. :scratch:
Quite simply, yes!
They should be seen as aspirational - but any one can buy one - they aren't that expensive - you just have to want one and make sacrifices- imo the prices could double and they would still find their market - I just don't think I would still be in it.
It's just a matter of time...
Although new Rolexes seem hideously expensive to some (including me :lol: ) the fact is they are the cheapest all in house Swiss manufacture.
Cheers,
Neil.
There's a definite limit to this, could you imagine a brand new non date sub costing £5500 in ten or so years time and a second hand one £3500. Even as a watch guy I would rather spend that kind of money on something other than a Sub, which in some circles is the average watch
Although I doubt the ND Sub will still be around in 10 years (at least not in its current incarnation), ten years from now £5500 will not be as much money as it is today.... inflation etc....
Of course there is a limit, and I think it's close to being reached, seen as % of average income. It's still entirely possible for anyone with a job to save up and buy a steel Rolex within, say, a year.
Explain.
How is that with Omega and ETA?
Oh, and how is it with the balance springs of Rolex?
I am sorry Neil but in house also is not much of an argument for value nor quality or price. In fact; in house (at Rolex scale) is most often chéaper :idea:
Omega and ETA are part of the gigantic Swatch group. ETA movements are used in various of their brands and many, many independents as well.Explain.
How is that with Omega and ETA?
You will only find a Rolex movement in a Rolex watch.
If you think Rolex make every part down to the screws you would be silly wouldn't you. :wink:
No but it is an argument for exclusivity which like it or not is a feature of luxury goods.
Cheers,
Neil.
Two very compelling points for their customers.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
[quote=Neil.C]Omega and ETA are part of the gigantic Swatch group. ETA movements are used in various of their brands and many, many independents as well.Explain.
How is that with Omega and ETA?
You will only find a Rolex movement in a Rolex watch.
[/quote:2h2nxxe6]
Furthermore, the ETA designs descend from calibres created while under Eterna's ownership, which makes it stupendously difficult to claim that Omega's ETA-based movements are in-house. Even Omega's hairsprings are manufactured not by ETA, but by Nivarox SA, another company with in the Swatch Group.
If we expand the horizon to any watch with an in-house movement, Rolex offerings are definitely within the most reasonable price bracket for any major watch brand. Under 4k it's really only Rolex, Omega 8500, one or two JLC pieces, one or two Chopard LUC pieces, the simpler Zenith Elites, and some of the Glashutte Original automatics. Under 3k, the list falls almost exclusively to Rolex and Omega. Excluding small houses like Nomos, of course.
exactly.Two very compelling points for their customers.
R
[quote=spluurfg]Furthermore, the ETA designs descend from calibres created while under Eterna's ownership, which makes it stupendously difficult to claim that Omega's ETA-based movements are in-house. Even Omega's hairsprings are manufactured not by ETA, but by Nivarox SA, another company with in the Swatch Group.Omega and ETA are part of the gigantic Swatch group. ETA movements are used in various of their brands and many, many independents as well.Explain.
How is that with Omega and ETA?
You will only find a Rolex movement in a Rolex watch.
If we expand the horizon to any watch with an in-house movement, Rolex offerings are definitely within the most reasonable price bracket for any major watch brand. Under 4k it's really only Rolex, Omega 8500, one or two JLC pieces, one or two Chopard LUC pieces, the simpler Zenith Elites, and some of the Glashutte Original automatics. Under 3k, the list falls almost exclusively to Rolex and Omega. Excluding small houses like Nomos, of course.[/quote:pr38j6k3]
Any reason you're excluding Seiko from the list? I understand they make everything in house, including the oil?!
Don't forget that a lot of the rise in Rolex retail prices (certainly the last lot) was down to the weak pound. It happened in the camera market too, Canon/Nikon/Sigma lenses went up by 20 to 30% sometime last year.
Personally, I do like some Rolex watches, though don't yet own one. The thing is, I don't actually know deep down why I want to really! There are other watches that look similar, so it can't be the styling, and there are other watches at similar price points with similar quality so it can't be that either. I guess it's that intangible thing that a lot of luxury goods have, and I suppose the term 'reassuringly expensive' applies somewhere?! :)
Whatever it is, it makes for a very successful company and product line.
Whoops, forgot about Seiko since I don't run into their mechanical pieces much in the UK. Maybe the Ananta line will change this (though a normal looking and normal sized automatic watch for the UK wouldn't hurt)
Have to agree with that, the official UK line of watches is quite frankly poor! Fortunately, grey importing and eBay to the rescue!Whoops, forgot about Seiko since I don't run into their mechanical pieces much in the UK. Maybe the Ananta line will change this (though a normal looking and normal sized automatic watch for the UK wouldn't hurt)
Looking at Rolex compared to their competition the prices are a bit higher which seems about right and is clearly deliberate. When Omega, Breitling and IWC etc. try to move upwards in prestige, Rolex think they have to as well. Looking at the industry as a whole, they are all now wildly overpriced. They are meant to be mass produced high quality everyday watches for the upper earning end of normal people - not exotic and rare, handmade masterpieces for the elite. When an Omega SM300 cost £1200 and a Rolex Sub £2600 I though the prices where as high as normal people would be prepared to go for a mere watch. At nearly £2000 and £4000 for the same watches 3 years later, I am very surprised that about 80% of the original potential buyers have not been priced out of the market. However much I like the models they are now well and truly outside what I am comfortable or willing to spend. Who are all these people who are prepared to spend £4000+ on a plain steel watch (asian market or otherwise)? Surely sales figures must be right down (especially in a recession). Surely there is some merit in a brand going against the tide and allowing themselves to be cheaper (and make the competition look overpriced) - Rolex would certainly have far fewer detractors. Offering really good watches for less is how Omega have clawed their way back over the last 10 years - a strategy now being abandoned.
As regards Seiko - regardless of their many virtues, in the West their higher end watches do not benefit from the same brand awareness as their European counterparts. Also as long as they continue to sell budget priced watches under the samebrand name in Europe they will never obtain the exclusivity of the other brands. The exact reason the others are having their reverse price war - to gain exclusivity.
Yes, the word ´Swiss´.
I did not mention Patek or Chopard either because of ´cheapest´.
Anyway, the topic got to the crux of Rolex pricing = the customer perception of exclusivity.
The price is set at the level the market supports and the biggest part is supported by the perception of exclusivity.
That is it.
What the real value of the hardware should be or where the percentages go is irrelevant.
If Rolexes were primairily about the horologic aspect of the hardware they would not have a dial squeezed full with marketing blurp that fills half a page written out nor a sector ring SHOÚTING
ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX ROLEX
Exclusivity by the million. Ah sorry. Only 800.000 or so; quite a difference :wink:
A couple of AD's have actually told me potential buyers come in - look at a few Rx's and pick up a brochure and price list on leaving.
Have come back after 1-2 years after 'saving up' and have baulked at the vast price increases and have ended up buying a cheaper brand ..... buyers these days, in particular thanks to the internet, are more 'savvy' than some years back.
Also, a fact is other brands are nudging their way into major sports events hence Rx shouldn't take their 'share' for granted :wink:
Cheers, Peter
They do not and clearly aim at the ´posh´ sector in their traditional markets.
They also know that the growth market lies in Asia.
Actually Huertecilla, my old mucker, my question wasn't directed at you, but rather spluurfg.Yes, the word ´Swiss´.
I did not mention Patek or Chopard either because of ´cheapest´....
Thanks for your somewhat ranty reply though anyway! :lol: :D :twisted:
Veblen good :D
EDIT: Using the search function I found something rather funny JCJM posted (IMHO :wink:): viewtopic.php?f=1&t=90288#p930804
It's not so much a question of exclusivity, more of quality.
When I bought my first Rolex I neither knew nor cared how many watches they made, but I did know that they were perceived as a quality item.
And FWIW I now also perceive Rolex watches as a quality product - and I still neither know nor care how many they make.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Amen.
If anything, it's impressive how many highgrade watches they are able to produce, and still keep quality at the absolute peak. Very very rarely do you hear of a "lemon" straight from Rolex... Planet Oceans on the other hand...
Seiko manufactures many millions of watches each year, all with the Seiko label on the dial regardless of price... With this strategy they will never ever appeal to the principal buyers of luxury watches.
Chopard do a wonderful LUC manufacture piece with twin stacked barrels, 65 hr reserve, and 22ct micro-rotor with exceptional finish in a steel case for £3800 or so. Hence their place in the under 4k manufacture list.
Which model can be had for 3800£ retail? L.U.C's are almost always gold, Pro One in stainless steel retails at way over 5000£ on a rubber strap and I couldn't find anything cheaper than that...Chopard do a wonderful LUC manufacture piece with twin stacked barrels, 65 hr reserve, and 22ct micro-rotor with exceptional finish in a steel case for £3800 or so. Hence their place in the under 4k manufacture list.
Seiko did in fact buy the Swiss firm Jean Lassale in the '80's with the idea of using the name to go upmarket. Watches with the name were produced but nothing really came of it IIRC.
Cheers,
Neil.
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