80's and 90's GTi's

[Andy Ted]

Hi am finding myself strangely drawn to 80's and 90's GTis. I am thinking Pug 205 GTi or Mk2 Golfs that sort of thing

So my questions are...

1. Is it still possible to get hold of an unmolested example and if so where should I look?
2. Which ones would you recommend from a reliability point of view?
3. Have things progressed a lot in the last 20(!) years therefore leaving me underwhelmed and disappointed by them?
4. Is there a modern day equivalent?

Hope this is the right part of the forum for this

Thanks in advance!

Andy

[treebirch]

As an owner of many such cars in the past I couldn't recommend them enough. For me, it is the Golf everytime, it's just such a reliable tool.


Best place to look for them is specialist websites like Volkswaizard, 4 Star Classics and 80's Emporium.

Try to buy the most desirable model which is the 3dr with the 16v engine. Quite a few of these cars have been tinkered with over the years but as long as they are in the most part standard they should be good.
If you really want to splash out find an Edition one G60 (supercharged 8v) but these fetch silly money in good condition.

What is your budget?

[Andy Ted]

Hi!

Yeah the Mk2 Golf was probably the top of my list as I would think that a German car would be more reliable than a French car of the same age - this is not based on any knowledge just a guess!

The car would have to be my daily driver and I guess budget would be about 3k. Is there a chance of picking up a good one for that sort of money?

Thanks again

Andy

[chrisparker]

Have things progressed a lot in the last 20(!) years therefore leaving me underwhelmed and disappointed by them?
...Is there a modern day equivalent?

Things have progressed in 20 years but not so much in driving pleasure but safety. Modern hot hatches are often slower than older models mostly due to being heavier.

Aircon, airbags, crumple zones, electric windows, power steering, large bumpers have all added weight to modern cars making them much comfier and safer but no quicker. Engines have also seen a innovations too making them cleaner and more efficient, but still no faster.

Chris

[unwittingaccomplice]

Not quite a GTI but still very drivable these days. I had one of these a few years ago. (Lancia Integrale Evo 2 Dealer Collection - mine was no. 178)





And I miss it nearly every day. Also it has doubled in value since I sold it

EDIT: You CAN buy an 8v integrale for 3k but plan on spending another 2k sorting the rust, turbo, wheels, brakes and interior!

[treebirch]

Blimey, that is a generous budget, you will get quite a car for that money.

I would imagine a sub 90K 3dr 16v. Do you prefer the big bumber (post '90) or small bumper model? (Mines a small bumper, looks better in my opinion, having owned both in the past).

Getting the right car depends on 1 thing, are you in a rush?

I hope not, as with all these things, good thing come to those who wait!

Don't buy a lemon in a hurry if you can help it.

[Backward point]

Hi am finding myself strangely drawn to 80's and 90's GTis. I am thinking Pug 205 GTi or Mk2 Golfs that sort of thing

So my questions are...

1. Is it still possible to get hold of an unmolested example and if so where should I look?
2. Which ones would you recommend from a reliability point of view?
3. Have things progressed a lot in the last 20(!) years therefore leaving me underwhelmed and disappointed by them?
4. Is there a modern day equivalent?

Hope this is the right part of the forum for this

Thanks in advance!

Andy

1. Unlikely. If you find one, you'll pay over the odds.
2. Not the Peugeot. Mark 2 Golf GTI.
3. Yes, but hot hatches have also become heavier. Emissions and safety regulations have added complexity and weight. Hot hatches from the 80's and 90's will feel much more agile and responsive than today's versions.
4. Not really. See 3 above.

As a previous owner of various Golf and Scirocco GTI's, most of which were modified to a greater or lesser extent, I would suggest that you set a budget. And then double it, as you will end up spending far more than you intend on the base vehicle, and will inevitably find yourself drawn into modifying it. My last GTI was a project to produce the ultimate Mark 1 within a budget of £4k. I bought a relatively tidy car for £1100, spent £500 on bodywork, the same again on brakes, using a BR Motorsport cross-linkage and Brembo discs with Mintex M171 pads, a set of steel 6 x 14" wheels shod with sticky Yokohama tyres, and a Koni suspension kit. Then I had BR Motorsport build a new engine in standard trim, with a relatively mild cam and a Supersprint 4-2-1 manifold.

See how easy it is to become carried away? Cost was just about within my £4k budget.

I sold it twelve months later for £5k :wink:

My nephew has the Golf disease now, inherited from his dad and his uncle.


Regards

Ian

[Andy Ted]

Have things progressed a lot in the last 20(!) years therefore leaving me underwhelmed and disappointed by them?
...Is there a modern day equivalent?

Things have progressed in 20 years but not so much in driving pleasure but safety. Modern hot hatches are often slower than older models mostly due to being heavier.

Aircon, airbags, crumple zones, electric windows, power steering, large bumpers have all added weight to modern cars making them much comfier and safer but no quicker. Engines have also seen a innovations too making them cleaner and more efficient, but still no faster.

Chris

Hmm... come to think of it this may well be the reason why I am getting drawn to these cars, less electrics to go wrong, less weight, easier to maintain by a mechanic without needing specialist tools and seemingly more fun to be had at non licence losing speeds!

[treebirch]

Not quite a GTI but still very drivable these days. I had one of these a few years ago. (Lancia Integrale Evo 2 Dealer Collection - mine was no. 178)





And I miss it nearly every day. Also it has doubled in value since I sold it

EDIT: You CAN buy an 8v integrale for 3k but plan on spending another 2k sorting the rust, turbo, wheels, brakes and interior!

An awesome awesome car. Somewhat more than 3k's worth though! I reckon the best place to find an 8v Inter' is somewhere with a very sunny climate, as you say, they suffer terribly with corrosion problems. I have seen a few good ones in southern Italy in the past.

[treebirch]

[quote=Backward point]

Hi am finding myself strangely drawn to 80's and 90's GTis. I am thinking Pug 205 GTi or Mk2 Golfs that sort of thing

So my questions are...

1. Is it still possible to get hold of an unmolested example and if so where should I look?
2. Which ones would you recommend from a reliability point of view?
3. Have things progressed a lot in the last 20(!) years therefore leaving me underwhelmed and disappointed by them?
4. Is there a modern day equivalent?

Hope this is the right part of the forum for this

Thanks in advance!

Andy

1. Unlikely. If you find one, you'll pay over the odds.
2. Not the Peugeot. Mark 2 Golf GTI.
3. Yes, but hot hatches have also become heavier. Emissions and safety regulations have added complexity and weight. Hot hatches from the 80's and 90's will feel much more agile and responsive than today's versions.
4. Not really. See 3 above.

As a previous owner of various Golf and Scirocco GTI's, most of which were modified to a greater or lesser extent, I would suggest that you set a budget. And then double it, as you will end up spending far more than you intend on the base vehicle, and will inevitably find yourself drawn into modifying it. My last GTI was a project to produce the ultimate Mark 1 within a budget of £4k. I bought a relatively tidy car for £1100, spent £500 on bodywork, the same again on brakes, using a BR Motorsport cross-linkage and Brembo discs with Mintex M171 pads, a set of steel 6 x 14" wheels shod with sticky Yokohama tyres, and a Koni suspension kit. Then I had BR Motorsport build a new engine in standard trim, with a relatively mild cam and a Supersprint 4-2-1 manifold.

See how easy it is to become carried away? Cost was just about within my £4k budget.

I sold it twelve months later for £5k :wink:

My nephew has the Golf disease now, inherited from his dad and his uncle.


Regards

Ian[/quote:1pz7syf2]

I have a Mk2 Gti 16v 3dr, I paid 1200quid for it. It is not immaculate by any means but I have started to change a few of the mechanicals, It already has slightly better suspension, which I am going to leave, my next job is to replace the stock 1800cc engine with and Audi 2.0 then to switch the inlet cam shaft for a mk3 GTI one. The idea is that the car looks standard - the best way, but goes like stink (within reason and without being completely over the top power wise and budget wise!) The best thing is it'll still do 30+ to the gallon!

[Backward point]

(quote) I have a Mk2 Gti 16v 3dr, I paid 1200quid for it. It is not immaculate by any means but I have started to change a few of the mechanicals, It already has slightly better suspension, which I am going to leave, my next job is to replace the stock 1800cc engine with and Audi 2.0 then to switch the inlet cam shaft for a mk3 GTI one. The idea is that the car looks standard - the best way, but goes like stink (within reason and without being completely over the top power wise and budget wise!) The best thing is it'll still do 30+ to the gallon! (quote)


That was more or less the thinking behind my Mark 1, which looked completely standard from the outside, other than the wheels, but had bulletproof mechanicals and brakes which actually worked. When I built it, I had 10+ years of modifying GTI's and five seasons of preparing a friend's Formula Vee single-seater, so I knew what worked and what didn't. The budget went into top spec mechanicals, put together by the best VW engineers available, namely BRM and myself.

To the OP - another car to consider would be a Honda Civic VTI. Go for the 1.6 engine, which gives 158bhp and revs to 8750. It's one of the truly great engines, with acceleration which gives the feeling of being pulled by a giant piece of elastic, as the rate of acceleration itself accelerates, and a satisfying kick in the back when the cam timing changes at 4800 rpm, when other engines are nearing their limits.


Regards

Ian

[treebirch]

Agreed, whole heartly! As Andy implied, 80's engineering really was spot on. Cars just aren't built with the same attitude these days. Take the Merc W124 series, you see very few around in anything but good condition, but take the W220 which was a 50K plus car in it's day and you see them driving around with rotten rear aches. I had a ride in a '67 600S recently (the one with hydraulic everything) and it was incredible!

[b11ocx]

Left field alternative would be a Saab 900 T16S which feels quick even now due to the big Turbo

[bloater]

The old man has just sold his Pug 309 GTI he was the second owner under 40k on the clock from new until the old man bought it all the work had been carried out by the garage that had originally sold it, and sold it to my old man as well.
The only down side is it was an automatic.
He had it for about 3 years and spent a bit of time and not a lot of money getting it all tidy.
He sold it on for a decent profit, via the pug forums.

[vRSG60]

I still have a MK2 Golf, though not a GTI but a Rallye Golf, based on a MK2 GTI but with 4WD, a G60 Supercharger and the boxy bodywork similar to an Integrale , Audi UR quattro and E30 M3.
5000 were built worldwide as homlogation specials to allow VW to compete in the World Rally Championship.



I've had 6 VW Golf GTIs - 4 MK2 GTIs and 2 MK1s I love them.

If I was looking for a GTI I'd buy the best STANDARD car I could afford. Cars with modified interiors, engines and bodywork can be difficult to sell on and don't hold their value like a good standard car.
Suspension mods and engine tweaks aren't a problem. Daft wheels can soon be replaced. The quality of the interior is important, some of the trim can be hard to get hold of these days.
An 8V whilst not having the power of the 16V can be just as much fun, the 16V reaaly needs to be revved.
Don't rule out a good supercharged G60 GTI, although they are all left hand drive, you soon get used to it and the Edition One G60s have electric Recaro seats.

Colour can be important too. The Oak green models sell at a premium and the Royal Blue Metallic looks particularly good on a MK2
Go for a 3 door G or H reg GTI with the big bumpers, either 8V or 16V, with the factory option Recaro seats (if you can find one).

8v here (non STD seats) wheels are worth a bit though http://www.edition38.com/forums/inde...owtopic=321499

This was the one to buy, over budget but a mint G60 http://www.edition38.com/forums/inde...owtopic=322980

Look on Edition 38 cars for sale section, you may have to register.


PM me if you feel you need more info.

Shaun

[catflem]

There doesn't appear to be much love for the 205 GTI on the forum, which is a shame because they can be made to go like stink, and corner superbly.

Although it isn't a GTI, the early 16V Calibra was a lot of fun and surprisingly practical. Go for the C20XE red top engine, and de-cat it.

[PADDYS]

Hi,
After owning Subarus (modded), Focus STs (modded) and a new Focus RS I sold up and bought a K reg 205 GTI modded with a 306 GTI engine and brakes. I can honestly tell you than I smile more in the 205 ( every time I drive it ) than I did in any of the others. It is special in so many ways. No comforts at all in it, no radio, ABS or power steering. Cost me £2000 and had a lot of work carried out by previous owners. At the minute I think it will be the car I keep for a couple of years, my previous best was 13 months. I bought it off Pistonheads. More people talk to me about it than any other car I owned, really glad I bought it.

Paddy

[GraniteQuarry]

A standard MK2 GTi all the way! Had one from age 19 to 26 - i.e. the crazy boy racer years - and it never had a single fault!

Prices are strong - as noted aim for a bog standard, yes kinda hard to find, do that and you'll not lose a penny on resale, most likely will make a profit down the line. Plenty of dogs around a grand, if you're lucky can bag a good one privately for £2500, specialist dealers are asking £5k or more for them!

BTW cheap maintenance, and parts are plentiful - as good and costless a car you can buy IMO.

Pugs and the like are obviously loadsa fun too, but nothing beats the original :D

[Tahiti]

Integrale - yummy
Rallye - yummy

Back on topic, I've not owned a 205 or Golf, but have friends who've had both. The GTi 1.9 was fantastic fun, but had glitches. The Mk2 Golf GTi 8V was a solid car but not as much fun.

Take a look at Pistonheads or specialist forums.

As for a more modern successor, there's always the Clio 172 which can be picked up on budget in good nick, or even a 306 GTi-6/Rallye (you may not agree). If I was blowing £3k on an older hot hatch, I'd probably go for a good 205 though.

For example, just a quick check of Pistonheads came up with this - http://pistonheads.com/sales/1858842.htm

If a 306, this one stands out - http://pistonheads.com/sales/1932046.htm

Neither of these cars are known to me.

[Andy Ted]

Lots of food for thought here - thanks everyone! Am going to have a look around especially at Mk2 Golfs and see how much my money will buy.

Thanks again

Andy

[Captain Morgan]

Not quite a GTI but still very drivable these days. I had one of these a few years ago. (Lancia Integrale Evo 2 Dealer Collection - mine was no. 178)





And I miss it nearly every day. Also it has doubled in value since I sold it

EDIT: You CAN buy an 8v integrale for 3k but plan on spending another 2k sorting the rust, turbo, wheels, brakes and interior!

Oh you lovely thing, on the list of cars to own, I had a Dedra in early 00's and loved it!

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Had a Mk 2 - great car, ended up being damaged in an accident (not the wife's fault) only problem was the heater matrix blew and the whole damn car is built around it!

Top wheels though.

[watchlovr]

Heres mine
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1848252.htm
Colin.

[gcleminson]

I understand the love for the old skool hatches, but seeing as you asked for suggestions of a modern alternative, I'd have to agree with Tahiti re: the Clio 172- certainly one of the most fun cars I've owned; and for all those executive saloon drivers who try to ride your ass on the big roads, it's an eye-opener for them when the traffic clears in front :lol:

[treebirch]

Heres mine
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1848252.htm
Colin.

That is a very nice looking example - Andy, take note!

[treebirch]

I understand the love for the old skool hatches, but seeing as you asked for suggestions of a modern alternative, I'd have to agree with Tahiti re: the Clio 172- certainly one of the most fun cars I've owned; and for all those executive saloon drivers who try to ride your ass on the big roads, it's an eye-opener for them when the traffic clears in front :lol:

I would love to own one of these but can't help being scared by the horror stories about cold starting and electrics. I think the Golf gets the crown every time. Sorry.

[Tai Mi Shu]

My daily drive is a 1984 Mk2 XR2 :)

[Backward point]

Heres mine
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1848252.htm
Colin.

The definitive Mark 2, and a very tidy example. Why are you selling it, Colin?

[vRSG60]

Heres mine
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1848252.htm
Colin.

Nice one, like I said - Oak green.

[BondandBigM]

Everybody get's all starry eyed about Golf GTI's but they aren't as reliable as they are made out to be. I've had several MK2's two MK1's one which had a 16V conversion, a convertible GTI and a 16V Jetta GTI. Blown engines, corroded oil coolers, fuel injection problems, front suspension, surprisingly rusty and so on. Still that being said great cars and I'd have another in a heartbeat. But I've also had a couple of Pug 1.9 GTI's and 309 GTI (arguably a better driving car than the 205) had the use of an MI16 off and on plus several XR3's, a couple of XR2's and an Astra GTE.


The best of the lot as regards reliability and cost of ownership, comfortable, handled well plus a great all rounder that never missed a beat in 40,000 hard miles I did in it even though it had 120,000 on the clock when I bought it.




None of the above :lol: :lol:


It was the local Chav's favourite.......a Nova GTE :shock:


Try one, especially if you can find a Courtney Turbo conversion, you'll be surprised :D

[wampa]

He's my early MK2 16v with quater windows and small bumpers:


Good cars

For something more modern how about Lupo GTi, they are awesome:

[dulux]

Has to be the 205 GTi 1.9. I've owned two of these in the past and they were brill. Fast and fun. I also had a golf Gti which I bought for er indoors, the mk2 and later the mk4 (?), and neither of them (esp the mk4) was nowhere near as much fun as the 205.
Its going to be diificult to source a clean 205 that hasn't been modded or chavved.

[RLE]

Have to agree with the 306 Rallye suggestion. Last year I had a few hours in one of these and I was smitten..and that was whilst currently owning a 400bhp Impreza that handled like it was on rails.

I really want a white Rallye as a play thing but that red one looks interesting.

[andy tims]

Love the old school hot hatches having had a 5GT Turbo, 205 XS (junior GTi) 205 GTi 1.9, Mki Golf GTi, 306 GTi-6, Corrado VR6 and having driven a couple of Clio Williams & a whole bunch of Alfasud's I love the idea of getting another (Clio Williams being my preference) but the thought of finding something tidy and original enough is daunting.

Might get a Clio Trophy though before they get too old.

[RLE]

Well nearly went for a look at that Rallye until I found some questionable details about the seller................Kicking myself I never bought Chets that was for sale on here earlier this year (bloody work).

Search starts for a good example of a white Rallye................

[johncoote69]

BUllet proof residuals but hard to find a decent one.... i'm talking Escort Cosworth - THE DADDY of the era..... Had a 205gti 1.6 - it was a v nice car at the time - but reliability was not great as i remember, and that was bought via a specialist Gti dealer of the day.
Great fun though - and mods just don't do it for me..... Max Power etc..... shite.

[Soot1e]

Have you looked at SC recently, Mk2 16v Golf up for sale!

[dizz]

My mate has a Pug 309GTI stored in a garage for the last 10 years, might make a good project for not much outlay,

PM me if your interested, the car is in Staines near Heathrow airport.

[treebirch]

309 GTI, just that little bit better than the 205 because of the slightly longer wheelbase, I think it looked better too.

[Tahiti]

BUllet proof residuals but hard to find a decent one.... i'm talking Escort Cosworth - THE DADDY of the era.....

One of the mates who had a 205 chopped it in for a big turbo example of the Escort Cosworth. Very lightly modified (remapped, filter, exhaust), it was great fun. But very expensive when things went wrong with it.

[Tahiti]

309 GTI, just that little bit better than the 205 because of the slightly longer wheelbase, I think it looked better too.

On the downside, weren't they heavier?

[stiglet]

I had an original Mk I Golf GTI (four speed) in the early 80s. Fab car but cr@p brakes :?

I also had 2 MkIIs - a 3 door and a 5 door - both were cracking cars and I'd have another like a shot if I could find another unmolested example.

However when my met my (much) better half I had a 911 and she had s 205 GTI 1.6 .

Guess which one got driven most?

IMHO a good 205 is a hoot to drive - the Golf is a "better" car

NB - just my 2p worth :wink:

[andyjay]

I had a red Mk1 Golf GTI with a 1.9 big valve head, big brakes with fast road pads (which sorted the brakes!) and clever suspension. Great car.

I would try and find the latest Mk2 Golf GTI (my preference would be the last of the small bumpers). They are just awesome - then get the engine sorted with an upgrade and really be amazed. For something just a little different, why not try a Mk11 16v Jetta - just as quick and handles better due to the solid bulkhead in the back.

It doesn't matter as long as it has VW on the badge...

[Jay]

I recently sold on my treasured '88 Escort RS Turbo. I'd left it sat garaged, unused for 6 years. 50k miles, all standard and original and very hard to find unmodified.

I'd enjoyed it for many years previously. But i just didn't have the time or inclination to get it properly back on the road. Mainly due to this.....



But if i could find a standard Escort Cosworth in great nick i'd be pretty tempted. And if i win the lottery, an RS500 :P and a Gatrac G4 and a Rallye Golf and an Integrale Evo...... :lol:

[JohnnyE]

I'm a big VW Golf fan - love Corrados too. Thing is.. it all depends on your budget. I started out looking for a Golf Mk2 but for the same money could pick up a mint V6 Audi Coupe. I cant sing the praises of them enough. All galvanised. Beautiful build quality. Great engines (5 pot quattro unbeatable for sound). The Golf.. well, it underwhelmed me. I drove a Mk 2 back in the day - and had memories of manys a quick drive - but nowadays, its quite slow really.

Thats why I love my coupe. You get a lot of motor for your money compared to the dubs that everyone scrabbles over to buy.

Heres my 2 VAG's (the rocco cost me £350 BTW!)

[walkerwek1958]

Serious risk of buying a financial black hole IMO.

Modern cars are so much better, can`t see any appeal in an 80s/90s anything. Not real classics but not truly modern either.

I speak as a classic car owner (1972 TR6)...but I really can`t see the appeal of the hot hatch things from that era.

Paul

[andy tims]

Modern cars are so much better, can`t see any appeal in an 80s/90s anything. Not real classics but not truly modern either.

I'd be pretty happy to have my old 80's "classic" back

[JohnnyE]

Surely the choice of 'classic' or 90's gti boils down to youthful nostalgia? In my late teens, it was the XR2/3, the mk2 gti, the Sierra Cosworth and the Group B glory days.

I've owned 2 TR's and the last one was a money pit. It cost me near £6k to buy. It's fuel tank gave up to tin rot and started the cascade of an axle out session I'd rather forget. Even with Spax adjustables and poly bushes, I couldn't enjoy it on a B road. Straight lines only.

In contrast, my 90s Audi cost 1/3 of that. It's not missed a beat in 18 months of ownership. It doesn't yet know what rust is.

But the thing is, I loved these cars in their day. If I'd grown up in the TR4-6 era, I'd think differently I'm sure. That straight 6 was the last of the proper Triumphs indeed.

[M4FFU]

I had a poster of one of these on my wall when I was a yoof, when the rest of the populus had Ferrari F40s:



It was a special edition of the 309 GTi, called the 'Goodwood.' Occasionally see unmollested examples. Still think they're lovely.

[Backward point]

I had a poster of one of these on my wall when I was a yoof, when the rest of the populus had Ferrari F40s:



It was a special edition of the 309 GTi, called the 'Goodwood.' Occasionally see unmollested examples. Still think they're lovely.

Are you Albanian?