Good point. Presumably, all personal Nazi memorabilia - crockery, clothes, lapel pins, whatever - must now instantly be reduced in emotional value to that of mere historical junk and must be returned to its rightful owner. Since it was only used by one or two people, right...Originally Posted by ralphy
Von Ribbentrop did all that? :shock: Who'd have guessed.
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
I really don't see the problem. A watch is a watch.
The watch didn't do anything wrong, it's just a normal watch that happened to belong to a bad guy at one time. Now it belongs to a 'good' guy.
If he doesn't want it then sell it and make the money work in whatever way he sees fit.
The watch in question already belongs to it's rightful owner (AFAIK) but at one time did belong to Von Ribbentrop. There is no provision in law for the forfeit of personal assets in this situation. If those facts don't suit you that's just something you'll have to deal with. :wink:Good point. Presumably, all personal Nazi memorabilia - crockery, clothes, lapel pins, whatever - must now instantly be reduced in emotional value to that of mere historical junk and must be returned to its rightful owner. Since it was only used by one or two people, right...Von Ribbentrop did all that? :shock: Who'd have guessed.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
As some have said its just a watch its not a dagger or a luger or samurai sword which lots of people collect regardless of their beliefs and political leanings, some of which have undoubtedly been used.
I cannot see the point in destroying it, its part of history, an ugly part, certainly but its an interesting and emotive subject and story and once which should be remembered and re-told so it is not forgotten.
Would you destroy a Rolex or Iwc or PP if it once belonged to Saddam Hussein or Idi Amin, what about Milosevic or Karadic or Pol Pot or Mugabe. I suspect the answer would be no, some may feel uncomfortable wearing it, then sell and do with the money as you wish.
I also think that Tai's comment that has upset some people is an off the cuff remark and has been blown a little out of proportion. I sometimes think some people wait to be offended I have no reason to disbelieve her that her Jewish friend made that comment and it seems its ok for some people to make such comments but not all and that's wrong. I see it a lot at work where people of a certain race and religion can say something but not someone like me as I'm white and not a Muslim/Sikh or Hindu and that's not ok, either everyone can say a word or comment or no one.
I still maintain this watch should go to a Museum where it can be seen as a part of history with an interesting story and an ironical ending.
This. /\/\/\/\
That /\/\/\/\/\
Am angling for a packet of sweets and a Seiko Monster ;)
You can dress it up how you like with smilies but I find that very insulting. :strop:
<resists the urge to insult those who choose fishing as a hobby>
Oh no
I can see this going bad.
I'm off ;)
I'm with Tai Mi Shu here. I have loads of jewish friends and they would be highly delighted with the Jewish "JOKE". Most are proud of their heritage and the idea that they are more astute with money thatn others. Most of them have probably already heard it but I'll see if I can't find any that haven't, just to give them a laugh!!! Sounds like a Mel Brooks quote to me.Just while you're making your assumptions there... it was my Jewish jeweller/watch dealer friend that told me that "joke".
He laughs when people pay retail in his shop.
It was nothing to do with a hatred for Jews so wind your neck in.
In this discussion it wasn't a well chosen joke.I'm with Tai Mi Shu here. I have loads of jewish friends and they would be highly delighted with the Jewish "JOKE". Most are proud of their heritage and the idea that they are more astute with money thatn others. Most of them have probably already heard it but I'll see if I can't find any that haven't, just to give them a laugh!!! Sounds like a Mel Brooks quote to me.Just while you're making your assumptions there... it was my Jewish jeweller/watch dealer friend that told me that "joke".
He laughs when people pay retail in his shop.
It was nothing to do with a hatred for Jews so wind your neck in.
Further, I'd rather see this discussion about that remark stop right now.
Tai Mi Shu explained he didn't mean to offend.
That's enough to me and I have family who went through the camps in 40-45...
Come on guys, let it go.
Back to the subject:
Would you sell, return, or give this watch away?
Or would you blow it up, crush it, hammer it?
As said before: it's a wristwatch, not a weapon. Nobody was killed with it.
It's owner was a historically important figure. Hence an increase in the worth.
I can't really understand the strong feelings to destroy this watch! Thank god we didn't destroy everything in the past: there wouldn't be many castles, antiques etc. left...
It is a "She."
Sorry,It is a "She."
I didn't mean to offend either...
:shock:
And, we've all written things here that were meant in jest, but maybe not on. Wasn't politically correct, but then I'm usually not either. :lol:It is a "She."
Bernard is right. Let it drop and move on.
Cheers,
Bruce
The watch in question already belongs to it's rightful owner (AFAIK) but at one time did belong to Von Ribbentrop. There is no provision in law for the forfeit of personal assets in this situation. If those facts don't suit you that's just something you'll have to deal with. :wink:Good point. Presumably, all personal Nazi memorabilia - crockery, clothes, lapel pins, whatever - must now instantly be reduced in emotional value to that of mere historical junk and must be returned to its rightful owner. Since it was only used by one or two people, right...Von Ribbentrop did all that? :shock: Who'd have guessed.
R
Quite right in my opinion - children are not responsible for the sins of the father in the eyes of the law.
There is every chance that that the item was stolen from my when he was alive or more likely removed from his body after he was executed - hence it should be returned to the family and they should decide what happens to it - however if they have any sense either donate it or keep it.
Also I cannot understand why people are getting so upset about it - its just a watch! It was not responsible for anything other than showing the time.
Lighten up people - much more important things in life than OBJECTS.
Andy
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Interesting range of opinions as usual; I agree the object is morally neutral but would anyone feel happy dealing with blood diamonds or ivory and enjoying the profits?
I´d sell the watch and donate the proceeds to the upkeep of the Auschwitz memorial. Think of old JVR spinning in his grave, or fuming down in hell at the irony. I challenge any Jew who would not see the funny side of this.
Dreadful humour should be castrated.
The point is there is a big difference between self-deprecation and disparaging others.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
oooooppppsss :lol: :lol: :lol:It is a "She."
[quote=the big fella]Dreadful humour should be castrated.[/quote:3l08kig2]
Well its a view - rather extreme IMHO :shock: especially as SHE has said sorry for any offence caused.
I must say that people seem to be very quick to take offence. For hundreds of years the Jewish community have enjoyed the fact that their are perceived to be good at making money - which they are!!(look at the Blumberg, Goldsmith, Getty, etc for example) - so why so sensitive now about what is clearly a joke.
If anyone should be upset it should be gentiles as it was them who are seen as being the fools.
As a said people need to lighten up.
Andy
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
[quote=Andyg]Dreadful humour should be castrated.
Well its a view - rather extreme IMHO :shock: especially as SHE has said sorry for any offence caused.
I must say that people seem to be very quick to take offence. For hundreds of years the Jewish community have enjoyed the fact that their are perceived to be good at making money - which they are!!(look at the Blumberg, Goldsmith, Getty, etc for example) - so why so sensitive now about what is clearly a joke.
If anyone should be upset it should be gentiles as it was them who are seen as being the fools.
As a said people need to lighten up.
Andy[/quote:zty2f9kd]
And who has it offended exactly ? although if it had been me half of tz would be on my case now.
He should sell the watch and donate the money to a charity that helps Jewish holocaust , The money would be put to good news and any worry of a secret nazi fan buying the watch well the funds were used to help those, that there ideaolgy was to kill.
Most of the SS wealth came from taking it from the Jews including fillings from their teeth ebefore they killed them in addition to all the monies etc that they stole and stashed in Switzerland
It is a "She."
Are you sure? Maybe you guys have been flirting with a man :evil4:
Actually, they usually took the fillings after killing.Most of the SS wealth came from taking it from the Jews including fillings from their teeth ebefore they killed them in addition to all the monies etc that they stole and stashed in Switzerland
Most of the SS wealth came from taking it from the Jews including fillings from their teeth ebefore they killed them in addition to all the monies etc that they stole and stashed in Switzerland
Whats your point?? Just because the SS stole items from the jews (and lots of other people), then its OK for the US to do the same - interesting view.
As for Switerland acting as bankers for the nazi's - correct - however whats has this to do with a watch.
In fairness to the Swiss (or anyone else) if you can prove they have assets which once belonged to the a person (not just jews) who had that item stolen by the Nazis (or anyone else) then they is a legal obligation that the asset is returned - end of.
In this case JVT watch was stolen in which case it should be return - it should not make any difference whether he was a nazi or not.
Andy
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
You've got to be kidding me.
Okay, saw the apology. But let's not forget, Jews are known for their sense of humor. However, when it comes to certain topics, the humor tends to dissipate.
I've seen posts regarding the Holocaust on various sites by, let us say, educated people, which are so insensitive that it boggles the mind.
My point being the man whom bought the watch for £200 was jewish now I assme he had relatives that were killed by the nazis and all their belongings stolen as well as plenty of people they know here killed and everything they had was stolen.Most of the SS wealth came from taking it from the Jews including fillings from their teeth ebefore they killed them in addition to all the monies etc that they stole and stashed in Switzerland
Whats your point?? Just because the SS stole items from the jews (and lots of other people), then its OK for the US to do the same - interesting view.
If heaven forbid someone murdered your relatives or relatives of friends by gassing them and stealing all their pocessions. Would you return a lost watch to the son of right hand man of the leader, of this bunch of murders?
Where is there any evidence or even assertion that the watch was ever stolen? It could have been sold, traded, given away or even thrown away or 101 other things could have happened.Most of the SS wealth came from taking it from the Jews including fillings from their teeth ebefore they killed them in addition to all the monies etc that they stole and stashed in Switzerland
Whats your point?? Just because the SS stole items from the jews (and lots of other people), then its OK for the US to do the same - interesting view.
As for Switerland acting as bankers for the nazi's - correct - however whats has this to do with a watch.
In fairness to the Swiss (or anyone else) if you can prove they have assets which once belonged to the a person (not just jews) who had that item stolen by the Nazis (or anyone else) then they is a legal obligation that the asset is returned - end of.
In this case JVT watch was stolen in which case it should be return - it should not make any difference whether he was a nazi or not.
Andy
Even if it was stolen, the current owner has probably acquired good title so it's not 'end of' at all.
My point being the man whom bought the watch for £200 was jewish now I assme he had relatives that were killed by the nazis and all their belongings stolen as well as plenty of people they know here killed and everything they had was stolen.Most of the SS wealth came from taking it from the Jews including fillings from their teeth ebefore they killed them in addition to all the monies etc that they stole and stashed in Switzerland
Whats your point?? Just because the SS stole items from the jews (and lots of other people), then its OK for the US to do the same - interesting view.
If heaven forbid someone murdered your relatives or relatives of friends by gassing them and stealing all their pocessions. Would you return a lost watch to the son of right hand man of the leader, of this bunch of murders?
Its a law - personal choice does not come in to it.
In fact by keeping it he is commiting a crime. The fact that the owner was a criminal himself is irrelevent. hence I cannot go into Lord Archers house and nick his paintings (which is a shame :( ). Only that state/customer and excise, etc can do that sort of thing.
Andy
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Lot of fuss going on here...
Bloke buys a second hand watch
Watch turns out to be valuable
Bloke doesn't want to keep it
Sell it and keep the money - sorted.
All this other nonsense means nothing...
ps. It seems the ones who are most annoyed at a bit of harmless humour are "Septic tanks" anyway.
Chill out dudes...or visit the "bear pit" for some proper abuse... :D
Your kidding right - just because the current owner purchased the watch in a shop does not give him title if the item is proven to be stolen. Yep JVT might have traded, given it away or even sold it for a packet of cigarettes, however the jewelery shop should have got proof of ownership from the person they purchased it from and so on and so forth. Otherwise they might be charged with receiving or handling stolen property.Where is there any evidence or even assertion that the watch was ever stolen? It could have been sold, traded, given away or even thrown away or 101 other things could have happened.Most of the SS wealth came from taking it from the Jews including fillings from their teeth ebefore they killed them in addition to all the monies etc that they stole and stashed in Switzerland
Whats your point?? Just because the SS stole items from the jews (and lots of other people), then its OK for the US to do the same - interesting view.
As for Switerland acting as bankers for the nazi's - correct - however whats has this to do with a watch.
In fairness to the Swiss (or anyone else) if you can prove they have assets which once belonged to the a person (not just jews) who had that item stolen by the Nazis (or anyone else) then they is a legal obligation that the asset is returned - end of.
In this case JVT watch was stolen in which case it should be return - it should not make any difference whether he was a nazi or not.
Andy
Even if it was stolen, the current owner has probably acquired good title so it's not 'end of' at all.
Without this "proof of title" I believe the JVT estate can claim title (if they so wish) and I think they would win.
This stuff is important hence why its important to check things like Rolex Lost or Stolen registers before you buy 2nd Hand - otherwise you might be f$%k when you send it off for servicing - as Rolex will keep it before returning it to either the Insurance Company or Original Owner usually via the Police.
These rules apply whether you are a murdering nazi bastard or a nun.
Andy
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Am I the only person agreeing with DMR here? Seems eminently sensible to me.
And Tai Mi Shu could have forestalled all the holier-than-thou condemnation with a prompt and unequivocal 'Sorry' - much more powerful than 'it was just a joke FFS'. We all make mistakes, after all.
you seem to be assuming it's stolen...
I'll have you know there is no proof that he didn't sell it or give it to a guard who was nice to him :roll:
In fact for all you know he could have flipped it and given it to "Alexaff" to post....hence it only turning up in the 80's... :lol:
I agree that the law applies to everyone.Your kidding right - just because the current owner purchased the watch in a shop does not give him title if the item is proven to be stolen. Yep JVT might have traded, given it away or even sold it for a packet of cigarettes, however the jewelery shop should have got proof of ownership from the person they purchased it from and so on and so forth. Otherwise they might be charged with receiving or handling stolen property.Where is there any evidence or even assertion that the watch was ever stolen? It could have been sold, traded, given away or even thrown away or 101 other things could have happened.Most of the SS wealth came from taking it from the Jews including fillings from their teeth ebefore they killed them in addition to all the monies etc that they stole and stashed in Switzerland
Whats your point?? Just because the SS stole items from the jews (and lots of other people), then its OK for the US to do the same - interesting view.
As for Switerland acting as bankers for the nazi's - correct - however whats has this to do with a watch.
In fairness to the Swiss (or anyone else) if you can prove they have assets which once belonged to the a person (not just jews) who had that item stolen by the Nazis (or anyone else) then they is a legal obligation that the asset is returned - end of.
In this case JVT watch was stolen in which case it should be return - it should not make any difference whether he was a nazi or not.
Andy
Even if it was stolen, the current owner has probably acquired good title so it's not 'end of' at all.
Without this "proof of title" I believe the JVT estate can claim title (if they so wish) and I think they would win.
This stuff is important hence why its important to check things like Rolex Lost or Stolen registers before you buy 2nd Hand - otherwise you might be f$%k when you send it off for servicing - as Rolex will keep it before returning it to either the Insurance Company or Original Owner usually via the Police.
These rules apply whether you are a murdering nazi bastard or a nun.
Andy
However (in the UK) a person possessing stolen goods is not necessarily guilty of the offence of 'handling' or obliged to return them and one can obtain 'good title' to stolen goods that were innocently acquired in certain circumstances.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
F.T.F.A.
I really don't understand all of this kerfuffle ..... There is no evidence to suggest the watch is stolen ,,, this is all baloney .... The guy who has the watch is simply burying his head in the sand and cannot do anything decent with it .. he is the pathertic one here ..!
And I certainly would not return it to the Nazi's family out of the "goodness of my heart" if I had bought it in good faith not knowing what it was ! ... I might offer to sell it to them for market value though :lol:
It is a watch and it had nothing to do with the war, the owner did. If you get hung up on these things it becomes a waste of time. Before anyone jumps in and reminds me of WWII, my father was a Free French Marine who fought for 5 years in that war and as a child I saw the results of the war in France and in other countries.
I do not blame an AK 47 for the damage it has done no matter who owned it, the same for the watch. If there is that much concern about the origins, sell it at auction and the proceeds donated without fanfare to charity. Much ado about nothing IMO
I would. If I was.
Humour is just humour. Some people will like it. Others won't.
I'd apologise if you had paid to come and see my show. But you haven't. So I won't.
It's just a joke. Like this watch "we're" discussing.
It's just a watch.
[quote=Tai Mi Shu]I would. If I was. [/quote:24s3wyrs]
Valid point.
Just for clarity - I certainly don't think it warrants an apology, nor would I have sought one - I just think apologising (even when you're not sorry!) sometimes stops people getting shirty.
And with that, I'll butt out.
so how is suggesting that those of jewish origin are more astute with money than others disparaging...?????????????The point is there is a big difference between self-deprecation and disparaging others.
R
and "The Joke" had nothing to do with holocaust, war, nazis, or anything which could render it sick.
Back to the selling of the watch,
Its too sensative i think, and to be honest giving an amount this watch is likely to raise to any serious jewish charity would simply be a piss take as 6000000 jews perished at the hands of the nazis.
I think its best use would possibly to be donated to the Anne Frank museum or something similar, where its financial value is undermind by the disgust of everyone who glances upon it. And also not a place likely to be visite by neo nazis.
Is it racist to call a facist a ****? After all they are a minority. (well maybe not in Oldham!) ;-)
On another point above, many of teh prisoners at Nuremberg developed relationships with thier guards, and it was common practise to give items of thier property that was stored there to the guards. It was Herman Goering that gave his IWC to the guard that eventually brought him his hand cream as a last request. Its just what happened.
Not wishing to stoke the fire any more, however just for argument sake, why are people suggesting that the money should automatically go to jewish cause - if my memory serves me correctly the nazis were also responsible for killing millions of other people i.e. 20 million Russians died as a result of WW2 and thats before Stalin went a bit crazy.
It annoys me (a bit) that when ever the Nazi word gets mentioned people are quick to remind us of the fate of European (including German) Jews and yes this is horroric. However I think we should always remember that the Jews (and yes it was really bad) were not the only ones who suffered at the hands of Germany/Italy/Turkey/Japan, etc during the war - lots of other including about 0.5M british men/women and children also died.
Lest we forget eh!
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
i came across a piece of nazi memorabilia when i was travelling through eastern germany before the wall came down. i kept it and it meant alot to me. my dad is a holocaust survivor, every other single kid in his class was wiped out.
Good luck everybody. Have a good one.
I was just about to make exactly the same point.. And lets not forget ordinary German people who also suffered greatly as a result of nation's patriotic believes hijacked by Nazi propaganda machine.
Fas est ab hoste doceri
Though the death and suffering of many groups around the world were horrendous in the extreme, it must be remembered that Germany and their accomplices specifically singled out the Jewish people for total extremination. Rounding up women, children the sick and the aged cannot be accounted for as the 'exigencies of war'.
You may consider that death is death, but there is a sigbnificant difference between being singled out for murder, medical experiments, etc., and being killed as a result of war. It qualifies as a particular type of horror. To Jews this represents something not always understandable by others .
The statement that other groups suffered horribly during WWII is so obvious that it really doesn't need stating. I'm certainly not demeaning the losses of any group. I'm an avid reader of military history and understand the horrific losses by countries too numerous to mention (China, anyone?)
It's just that this is what goons like Mel Gibson and the other Holocaust deniers say to justify their fantasy-based opinions (not that anyone here has evinced any such refutation of history).
And for what it's worth, I used to own a German WWII ceremonial bayonet. I eventually sold it, and of course the funds went toward a watch purchase.
Dont defend the Germans of pre war Germany. Come on.
You're forgetting the Gypsies and that they were almost entirely exterminated by the Nazi's and decimated beyond the scope of other races
And no disrespect at all to any group specifically targeted by the Nazis; Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally and physically challenged, etc.
Where is the evidence of your statement?
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
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