Reply With QuoteDefine the tiers and it will be easier to define the brand in question.
I remain genuinely perplexed by this brand of watch. Considering its depreciation, retained value, production numbers, recognition - i would have thought it would rate about a 4th tier of watch status and perceived heritage, prestige and quality.
though i have spent about 15-20 impulse grand on their true vintage products, i acknowledge i possess below average knowledge of this brand in general - so can anybody assist me in contextualizing this brand in terms of overall desirability and collectability, returns etc agains the true leaders in the field? products such as the planet ocean appear to be great products, yet completely inferior against said criteria.... yet certain vintage models are very very well sought after.
any summaries or comments from more knowledgeable collectors would be much appreciated.
Define the tiers and it will be easier to define the brand in question.
Top tier in advertising and product placement.
I would say 3rd tier in regards quality of watch and price.
Exactly. I had to read your post three times to understand what you were asking. Please share these tiers and their crireria.Originally Posted by phil h
In terms of perception based on the criteria of "status and perceived heritage, prestige and quality" and missing out some more difficult to categorise brands (Glasshutte, etc) I guess something like this...
1 - Patek + Richard Mille + other highly exotic brands
2 - Audemars + Vacheron
3 - Rolex + Panerai + JLC + IWC (all much of a muchness with a few exceptions on certain watches)
4 - Omega
5 - Longines + Oris + whatever
So, yeah, I guess 4th tier-ish, with some room for argument in either direction depending on your thoughts on the tiers above. Does it really matter though? If you like a watch enough for what it costs what difference does its status make?
Harrison,
It seems that most of your posts begin with, 'I don't get this.../I hate this.../I can't understand why anyone would want....../what is it with....../I think these are a piece of sh.......'
Anything positive to say about anything?
I doubt it. :roll:
I'd be tempted to place JLC somewhere between Tier 2 and 3 if only because of the fact that they are constantly innovating their movement manufactures. They've supplied movements to makers in tiers above and below and you can find JLC movements in quite a few classic watches from other brands.
Agreed - I was trying to cover that with "with a few exceptions on certain watches" - the reason I didn't move them up was I'm just not sure if they are widely perceived that way and I was trying to focus my answer on perception rather than the reality of what each manufacturer actually achieves. Clearly some of the high end JLC stuff is far and away superior/more innovative than any current Rolex movement, but the lower end of their spectrum still takes a comparative kicking in residual terms. I had actually put them in at 2.5, but then changed it. :lol:I'd be tempted to place JLC somewhere between Tier 2 and 3 if only because of the fact that they are constantly innovating their movement manufactures. They've supplied movements to makers in tiers above and below and you can find JLC movements in quite a few classic watches from other brands.
Great brand, nice products, and with their 8500 movement up there with the best.
I've always wondered why, for example Breitling, is perceived by a lot of people as a higher-end brand than Omega.
Give me a new Aquaterra with 8500 movement anyday :) .
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
JLC are a funny one. They have the history, heritage, come classic watches Reverso, memovox etc And produce all their own movements both quartz and mechanical and some of their recent hi-end complications are just staggering yet they take a Fiat like hit on depreciation. Never understood this.
As for Omega well, 40's 50's 60's superb........ and yes, the new movement is a stunner but until recently I thought they were just a bit bland with basic ETA's in most of their watches trading off their past glory.
I would suggest that looking at Omega as a manufacturer (they are not really as it is from the Latin Manu factum “hand made”) they are distinctly different and some designs and technology is ahead of their class (or perceived tier). Examples include models from the Speedmaster series (moon, MK2, 125 chronometer), Seamaster (chronos plus ploprof and 1000m), pilotline watches early electronics such as the time computer, Mega quartz 2.4, speedsonic, magic watch, beta 21, equinox, the list goes on.
I'm wearing a Rolex GMT2 at present but when I compare like with like i.e. thin and cheaply made Rolex from the 70's and 80's with the offerings from Omega there is not much difference in quality. I agree that they are not tier one but I would suggest that they are in the same tier as Rolex, Zenith, Corum, 70's Heuer, Breitling.
I own a Panerai PAM024 at present and have owned others previously, some of the build quality is shocking on these watches. I would not suggest that it was in a tier above the rest.
Only my tuppence.
Where would you guys put Glashutte Original then for instance?
Do you think part of the issue, if there is one, is that with so much innovation over the years Omega have less of a "classic" perception than say Rolex who have kept their main models (think Sub, GMT, DJ, Explorer) highly recognisable for the last 50-60 years? In WIS terms a lot of the watches you mention watches are icons, but in general public terms they are perhaps old outdated watches that never achieved that "classic" status. Obviously the Speedy is the one exception but Omega have very much designed for the decade, rather than the century. Don't know if that makes sense? Just a thought.
Tricky, as they are so small as to be almost insignificant in terms of the brands mentioned. I guess they'd be fighting it out at 2.5 with JLC, benefitting from the perception of handmade quality and complex movements and a bit of mystique? :)
This thread is almost depressing.
I view a speedy and sea-dweller as the watches I aspire to, grail if you will, but the comments make me realise they aren't as prestigious in the real world :(
Doesn't matter, still love them, and the history of a speedy negates the tier system you mention IMO.
Other people's perceptions are completely irrelevant to the enjoyment you should get out of it. It's like thinking you've not got a great car if you've worked hard and bought a 911 Turbo, only to find out about the Veyron. There'll always be something at insane money that is "better", but is it necessary? Not really. :)
That's a good analogy, like it :thumbleft:
I think most people in the real world have not heard of the brands in the first two tiers. A sweeping generalisation I know, but the truth.
this is a really good question Harrison.
I have given this careful consideration and conclude that the most appropriate rank would be that of Paladin or maybe Ranger. then again it could more likely be Druid or possibly Invoker.
who bloody cares! you like a watch - buy it. end of. can we lose the trollesque questions already. go play some D&D and get a life.
I feel this may shed some light on the matter.
Harrison seems like an utter fool (with too much money) if you ask me...
He seems totally clueless on most subjects but if he has an opinion he really likes to tell us about it. Anything he doesn't understand/get/like MUST BE COMPLETE RUBBISH!
Who gives a flying F**k what tier omega watches are in! if you like them, you like them. You don't all of a sudden stop liking them because a kn0b with too much cash thinks they are beneath him.
And not to forget..... He might just go and buy a watch he isn't quite sure about JUST BECAUSE HE CAN AFFORD IT!
W@nker reminds me of the Harry Enfield character " I'm considerably richer than you "
Thats about right.
I knew that prisons had internet access.
But I didn't know that the mental care homes also allowed the inmates to play with computers.
yes but what tier of troll is he? :D
Quote from Simons link
"Others expanded the term to include the practice of playing a seriously misinformed or deluded user,"
My money is on deluded.
Quote "Delusions typically occur in the context of neurological or mental illness,"
The poor bugger probably doesn't even know he's an Eeedjit.
High-End Luxury
There are always superb options when money is no object.
Expect To Get:
A particularly refined watch recognized only by people "in the know." Very exclusive in design and craftsmanship, produced in small numbers, available through only very specialized dealers. In short, these are the Rolls Royce class of timepieces.
Examples of Brands in this Range:
A Lange and Sohne, Alain Silberstein, Audemars Piguet, Blancpain, Breguet, Franck Muller, JLC, Parmigiani, Patek Phillipe, Ulysse Nardin, Vacheron Constantin
Summary:
If you have the kind of money necessary to play in this field, then you likely do understand what the true merits and values of world-class luxury items have to offer. These are the products that impress those in the know, not the average Joe on the street. Exclusivity and extremes of refinement and jewelry value are king here.
Luxury
The largest, most widely known class of luxury timepieces
Expect To Get:
An elegant, valuable, stylish and prestigious watch that will serve you well for a long time. Of quality and durability that the watch can be passed down to your children. If maintained in good condition, can be resold whether it is 6 months or 30 years old.
Examples of Brands in this Range:
Breitling, Cartier, Ebel, Omega, Rolex
Summary:
This is the main tier of true luxury watches. Overall, these can be a good value because manufacturers at this level are not skimping to offer 'luxury' products at more moderate prices--yet they mostly do not go to outrageous excess in details without regard to cost of the highest-end brands. Better durability and modest depreciation rates make the long-term cost of ownership of these watches quite reasonable. Used watches in this tier can be an outstanding value.
Pseudo Luxury Watches
When you want a better luxury watch, but don't want to spend so much
Expect To Get:
An elegant and stylish watch that will serve you well for a moderate number of years.
Examples of Brands in this Range:
Baume & Mercier, Raymond Weil, Tag Heuer
Summary:
This is the transition tier--these watches are the high-end brands of the mass market stores, but the low-end brands at the finer jewelry stores. Overall, these can be the weaker value in luxury watches. They still have hefty prices, yet lack many of the better durability and long-term value benefits of the only slightly more expensive watches. Used watches from brands in the next tier up bought from reliable used watch dealers are usually a much better value.
Basic Luxury Watches
When you want something finer than average
Expect To Get:
An elegant and stylish watch that will serve you well for a number of years.
Examples of Brands in this Range:
Epos, Fortis, Movado, Oris
Summary:
This is the first tier of 'luxury' caliber watches. While there is a broad range, many brands at this level are excellent values as they are not trying to be more than they are. Some concentrate more on 'fashion' watches, others focus on affordable yet horologically sound products. The more modest prices make these a less risky purchase--you haven't invested so much that long-term value is of such concern.
Does that help at all?
I wouldn't call this the real world, the WIS world perhaps.
Ask the ordinary man on the street and they'll probably name Rolex as the world's most prestigious brand and will have no knowledge of the brands beyond that.
Chris
Examples of Brands in this Range:
A Lange and Sohne, Alain Silberstein, Audemars Piguet, Blancpain, Breguet, Franck Muller, JLC, Parmigiani, Patek Phillipe, Ulysse Nardin, Vacheron Constantin
i don't think so mate. at least 2/3 of those go in the Overpriced Tat for Fools category. you can chuck in Jacob & Co. while you're at it! :D
Actually, they don't: but I get your point. :wink:
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
There's only one real kind of tier. As far as watches go, it's what the individual likes that matters, not perceptions of what should be liked.
F.T.F.A.
A double edged sword, isn't it, coming up with rankings such as these?
Put together a good guide for those with more money than taste and you risk eliminating any value opportunities in the high-end, quality stuff.
But at the same time it helps the aspirational types spend their money more wisely (and, possibly, shrink the premium at which some overpriced items trade).
And, of course, for some people these rankings will be meaningless since they already know what they like, what its value is, and why they like it.
What about Swatch, Sekonda,Pulsar,Seiko,Lorus ,Tudor? They all make excellent timekeepers.
That's a good question. I realize that Seiko isn't perceived as being up there with Rolex etc, but what about watches from the GS Seiko range, which I don't own. Just on manufacturing and finishing quality alone, what tier would these things be hovering about, say compared to Rolex or Omega...or anything for that matter?
I assume they are all fully 'in house' pieces and are subject to higher tolerances than the somewhat outdated COSC?
They are in the real world, just not in the watch enthusiast's world :)
Fixed this one for you :D
I like this. This conforms to my own impression, although there's a lot of overlap between the tiers and I personally see JLC as playing in the hole between 2 and 3, like Wayne Rooney.
Slevin Kelevra - not sitting on the fence since 23/01/10 :lol:
Looking at the prestige and excitement of the watch, in my eyes, not the price-points, I would say:
1 - Some independents like MB&F, Uhrewerk, Journe, some of the limited production Patek, Vacheron and Lange, IWC IW1868
2. Volume products from Patek, Vacheron, Lange. Audemars.
3 - Rolex + JLC + IWC
4 - Omega + Panerai + Breitling
5 - Longines + Oris
6 - Tissot Certina
7 - Swatch
8 - Crappy corner shop stuff
The borders between 3 and 4 much depend on watch and movement.
Another way to look at things is to see where they advertise, that says some-things about how a brand looks at itself and where it wants to be.
In The Economist you usually some time every month (more around x-mas):
Rolex, page 2-3 spread
Patek, back cover
Cartier, back cover
Zenith, single page somewhere in the newspaper
I've seen some Journe ads, and some from Hublot. Last week I saw Panerei for the first time - perhaps a sign of their price increases?
I've never seen an Omega ad in The Economist. This might tell you something. But neither have I seen one from IWC (I think?).
Though I like Omega watches, and some look really good. So the tier of the brand shouldn't stop you from wearing a watch you really like!
I have Omega in my collection and the original post made me laugh. Keep 'em coming!
I would put Omega in a third tier in an arrangement a bit like this:
1st PP, Vacheron Constantin, Lange & Sohne, Breguet
2nd JLC, Glashutte Original
2.5th Zenith
3rd Rolex, Breitling, IWC, Chopard, Omega
4th Tag, Oris, Ebel, Longines
5th Bell & Ross, Baume & Mercier
I more or less agree with all that. Obviously we're just talking about the mass-produced brands. Hand-made or one-off pieces would need a seperate category.
Although Rolex don't have the variety of the others in the same tier as them I'd be inclined to put them at perhaps 2.75 purely because they are a true 'manufacturer' in that all their movements are in house. I always tend to see watch houses that actually design/make their own movements a bit higher than those that, for the most part, buy movements in. Until recently the likes of Omega and Breitling used ETA for 95% of their movements.
Quality :D
I've rolled a 16 on my die; therefore I invoke my cloak of Ignore Troll.
Sounds fair enough. Though, obviously, some brands will deserve a higher place in their group ("tier" :lol: ) so perhaps fractions arent necessary - although I definately see where scarto was coming from with Zenith at 2.50.
Yes, fair point..I was not keen on putting Breitling and Omega in the same bracket as Rolex as they simply aren't up to Rolex in any respect imo but as we're pretty much generalising in general here, :D ended up doing just that.
I think the better example of a Man Utd footballer who likes to play in the hole is Ryan Giggs.I like this. This conforms to my own impression, although there's a lot of overlap between the tiers and I personally see JLC as playing in the hole between 2 and 3, like Wayne Rooney.
Sorry, couldn't resist :P
Harrison
i acknowledge i possess below average knowledge of this brand in general - so can anybody assist me in contextualizing this brand in terms of overall desirability and collectability, returns etc agains the true leaders in the field? products such as the planet ocean appear to be great products, yet completely inferior against said criteria.... yet certain vintage models are very very well sought after.
My Dear Harrison,
Although I have a GCE O level in English I, and others;
phil h
Define the tiers and it will be easier to define the brand in question,
Gurmot
Exactly. I had to read your post three times to understand what you were asking. Please share these tiers and their crireria.
are struggling to understand your question. However, more clever souls than I have interpreted this to be a definition of “tiers” of watch brands and have helpfully posted a list;
cmcm3
1 - Patek + Richard Mille + other highly exotic brands
2 - Audemars + Vacheron
3 - Rolex + Panerai + JLC + IWC (all much of a muchness with a few exceptions on certain watches)
4 - Omega
5 - Longines + Oris + whatever
I am totally in agreement with these comments;
cmcm3
Other people's perceptions are completely irrelevant to the enjoyment you should get out of it.
magirus
As far as watches go, it's what the individual likes that matters, not perceptions of what should be liked.
and would caution you to heed this;
youveboughtwhat
Another way to look at things is to see where they advertise, that says some-things about how a brand looks at itself and where it wants to be.
At the end of the day, and no matter how much money you have in your budget,or what the adverts say, what do you, Harrison want? In that light I agree with omegaglas that Omega has produced some top class, i.e, Tier one watches;
omegaglas
…some designs and technology is ahead of their class (or perceived tier). Examples include models from the Speedmaster series (moon, MK2, 125 chronometer), Seamaster (chronos plus ploprof and 1000m), pilotline watches early electronics such as the time computer, Mega quartz 2.4, speedsonic, magic watch, beta 21, equinox, the list goes on.
Hope this helps with your quest.
Jim
What an invaluable thread.
It has taught me that all that matters on this forum is the appreciation of fine watches, with no bother for branding.
Ordinarily I would jump to Omegas defence but lots of people have put the case forward already.
Watches (IMHO) should be bought with the heart, if you like it, irrelevant of it's status or cudos then buy it and enjoy it!
Harrison, there is a world of knowledge out there and a great deal of it contained within our very own forum, some simple and not time consuming research will give you all the answers you seek
Watch ownership is a very personal/ subjective thing! Establish the reason you are buying watches in the first place? if it is to speculate or 'invest' then buy some gold, if it is because you love it then it shouldn't matter if it is a boot find Timex or a Patek, one of my most treasured watches (despite owning many or Omegas 'inconic' vintage pieces) is a 1994 Swatch watch, if I had to keep just one that would be it, not because it is cool but because it was the first watch my parents ever bought me and I loved it, it was the begging of my love affair with watches!
Omega (like most watch companies) has had it's ups and downs, their heritage is a strong and time served one and I think it would pay dividend to spend some time on google and do some research in to their history
Cheers Tom
Exactly. Thats what most of us are here to do. Enjoy your time on here. Ignore the OP.
In my little world there are 2 tiers of watches, those I like & those i dont, some omega fall into tier 1 some into tier 2. In terms of quality how can anyone list Omega under Panerai?
Just my 2p
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