Are homage watches fakes?

[MORRI]

Like a few others here, I think it depends on the manufacturer's intention. If it is to make a sale by way of a deception as to the origin of the watch - then I believe that to be wrong. If it is to produce something in the style of a classic design, without attempting to pass itself off as same, then I think it is alright.

A pastiche rather than an exect replica, if you like.

When I first saw a Mazda MX5, for example, I thought what a nice tribute to Mr Chapman and his team and what a well thought out reproduction of the general engineering strategy of the original Elan Sprint. But, if the car had a "Lotus" badge on the bonnet, and was being sold as a "homage" - I would feel differently.

I won a Getat, which has no dial markings, and would happily own one of Mr Platts "Italian" models if I had the chance - but I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing something with a P****** logo on the dial, unless it was the real thing.

Just my take.

Good summary

[earlsy]

Maybe if the OP had worded his question differently, there would not be so may raised hackles...

How about this?

Even though a homage watch is not breaking any laws, do you feel that it is just as bad as a fake because it has clearly copied a popular design?

Or maybe that is just as inflammatory...

Personally, I really like the look of some Panerais, but would never consider spending that much on a watch. I am, however, seriously considering an Italian...

[Operation Grandslam]

Are homages watches fakes? No.

[thattallchap]

And that's a crime?

IMO yes they are fakes pretending not to be fakes!

At very best they are ridiculous copy cats. People only buy them because they can't afford the real thing!

Of course pretending to be something you're not isn't a crime. It's not something to be proud of though.

But fraud (or faking something) is a crime, so your argument is a nonsense.

My argument was on the quoted post - is a homage, which isn't actually faking something it's illegal to fake, a crime. The answer is no. It's not fraud either. You cannot copyright a design, so copying said design is not a crime, it is not fraud. The moment you slap a brand name onto that copied design you're faking an existing product - that's a crime.

So, in fact, your response is nonsense.

Fraud isn't a crime. Ok so let's get rid of the serious fraud office. You're an idiot

Fraud is an infringement of copyright or the misleading of matters for personal gain.

Also theft of a identity, be it personal or corporate is also a crime, and is normally classed as fraud, so yet again you're wrong.

Taking design hues and or copying elements of a design which is t classified as a copyright isn't. Hence a homage is not a fake.

[RyanV]

From dictionary.com: "anything made to appear otherwise than it actually is; counterfeit: This diamond necklace is a fake".

So, something that looks like a Rolex, and has Rolex written on the dial, but isn't a Rolex, is a fake.

Something that looks like a Rolex, but has something else written on the dial (or nothing at all), is not a fake.

However, I'm not sure it's an homage either. From dictionary.com: "respect or reverence paid or rendered". And from http://www.merriam-webster.com: "something that shows respect or attests to the worth or influence of another".

I don't know that Invicta, or MKII, or any of the ~hundred other manufacturers peddling Sub lookalikes are showing respect or attesting to the worth of Rolex for any altruistic reason. Instead, they're simply profiting off the back of Rolex's design and marketing. Which is fine, as long as the consumer is aware. Which they should be, unless they're dolts.

[RobM]

Fraud isn't a crime. Ok so let's get rid of the serious fraud office. You're an idiot

Fraud is an infringement of copyright or the misleading of matters for personal gain.

Also theft of a identity, be it personal or corporate is also a crime, and is normally classed as fraud, so yet again you're wrong.

Taking design hues and or copying elements of a design which is t classified as a copyright isn't. Hence a homage is not a fake.

Wow you're an angry man. Quite an odd posting style.

My argument is that a homage is not the same as a fake and is not a crime. I also believe it's not something to be proud of.

Your argument is that a homage is not a fake and is not a crime. Yet I'm an idiot for sharing your view?

Also, I never said fraud is not a crime. I said homages are not fakes, so are not a crime, nor are they fraud. Fraud would be misleading somebody into thinking they are buying something they are not, which is not what homages do - it's what fakes do.

So much anger. Relax, it's a watch forum :)

[seadog1408]

I'd feel a bit of a tit wearing a "homage"

if some people feel ok with them, fair enough..... but even they must feel like they're sailing close to the wind

:roll:

[thattallchap]

I'd feel a bit of a tit wearing a "homage"

if some people feel ok with them, fair enough..... but even they must feel like they're sailing close to the wind

:roll:

+1 There appear to be more and more each day

[seadog1408]

I'd feel a bit of a tit wearing a "homage"

if some people feel ok with them, fair enough..... but even they must feel like they're sailing close to the wind

:roll:

Just my opinion chief :thumbright:

so, as its been mentioned in this thread, lets take the italian for example, why would you not want to wear it?

[jem0911]

Some bizarre comments here.
They are not fakes.
How can they be?
A fake has the copied brand name on and is made of inferior/different materials.
Is Designed in the style of, yes.

How wearing a PRS-20 or Steinhart is to make me a fraud is beyond me.

[paw3001]

And that's a crime?

IMO yes they are fakes pretending not to be fakes!

At very best they are ridiculous copy cats. People only buy them because they can't afford the real thing!

Huh! Never said it was a crime!

I think it is just a bit sad really that people are so desperate for a particular watch they would rather go for a cheapo version instead of saving for the real thing.

[paw3001]

IMO yes they are fakes pretending not to be fakes!

At very best they are ridiculous copy cats. People only buy them because they can't afford the real thing!

How the f*** do you know what someone can afford.

Why the f** buy the fakey/hommage if you can afford and want the real thing then!

and yes and we can all swear as well!

[seadog1408]

I'd feel a bit of a tit wearing a "homage"

if some people feel ok with them, fair enough..... but even they must feel like they're sailing close to the wind

:roll:

Just my opinion chief :thumbright:

so, as its been mentioned in this thread, lets take the italian for example, why would you not want to wear it?

what's an italian? :?:

thats my point, you dont know what you are talking about.

[dejjl]

what's an italian? :?:

It's a PRS-20 (sold here http://www.timefactors.com/ )

[paw3001]

IMO yes they are fakes pretending not to be fakes!

At very best they are ridiculous copy cats. People only buy them because they can't afford the real thing!

:scratch:

You might be barking up the wrong tree.

A word of caution; your post might not fly here. You might or might not know, that our host Eddie, makes some very fine watches.

Needless to say, I could not disagree more with your post.

I am an absolute nutter about the PRS-20 for example. They are quality watches not to be confused with some of the cheapos emerging from where ever.

That being said, some make more expensive watches in the same vein.

I have bought PAM and other far more expensive watches. I have sold most, the "Italian" stayed.

Very fair comment but opinions were asked and this is mine. It's how I feel so is valid just as is the opposite view.

Even if I didn't own a PAM 312 (which I saved bloody hard for) I would never of purchased that Italian (whether Eddie made it or not) it is just so obviously trying to be something it isn't in my opinion.

The only reason I can see for a homage is if the original manufacture is no longer with us and isn't making that model anymore.

[dejjl]

what's an italian? :?:

It's a PRS-20 (sold here http://www.timefactors.com/ )

oh right.....

i'd feel a bit of a fake wearing one of those, so they're not for me

Why fake?

I have owned 3 of them and will have a fourth soon. (I have also owned several Panerai)

[lysanderxiii]

what's an italian? :?:

It's a PRS-20 (sold here http://www.timefactors.com/ )

oh right.....

i'd feel a bit of a fake wearing one of those, so they're not for me

Then maybe you should find another forum.....

Pretty insulting to show up in a man's shop and insult his wares...

[seadog1408]

what's an italian? :?:

It's a PRS-20 (sold here http://www.timefactors.com/ )

oh right.....

i'd feel a bit of a fake wearing one of those, so they're not for me

Then maybe you should find another forum.....

Pretty insulting to show up in a man's shop and insult his wares...

quite.

[lysanderxiii]

I ask the question because both are obtaining a sale of the back of another manufacturers design.

yes

Yes - a fake without the brand name.

IMO yes they are fakes pretending not to be fakes!

At very best they are ridiculous copy cats. People only buy them because they can't afford the real thing!

Of course pretending to be something you're not isn't a crime. It's not something to be proud of though.

All of you, maybe a study of manners.....

[dejjl]

what's an italian? :?:

It's a PRS-20 (sold here http://www.timefactors.com/ )

oh right.....

i'd feel a bit of a fake wearing one of those, so they're not for me

Why fake?

I have owned 3 of them and will have a fourth soon. (I have also owned several Panerai)

because they're as close to being a fake panerai as the law allows and still being legal, so not for me.

you might as well just go and buy one of those Rotary fakes from argos that pretends to be a navitimer

What a crock....!

I'm presume you know that these "fakes" are made by our host?

[paw3001]

Sorry I never meant to insult or offend Eddie but did I miss the part in the terms and conditions which stated that differing opinions to the fanboys are not allowed when I signed up. Maybe the forum should have a minimum ownership policy before you can sign up!

If Homage vs. fakes posts are insulting to the Forum maybe they should be banned and then us new non Forum fanboys will know the score?

[sceneshifter]

I'd feel a bit of a tit wearing a "homage"

if some people feel ok with them, fair enough..... but even they must feel like they're sailing close to the wind

:roll:

Just my opinion chief :thumbright:

so, as its been mentioned in this thread, lets take the italian for example, why would you not want to wear it?

what's an italian? :?:

enzo ferrari...?

[Chartman69]

Heres a few fakes I have / had :roll:

[fornowagain]

Homage, all the way to a sterile dialled clones are not fakes by definition. It's only a fake when they're branded with the intent to deceive. You could argue they infringe intellectual property. It's very difficult to argue over design, especially as copyright is time limited. It only takes a slight variation or an earlier generic form. Given it's a device with the same general functions that can't be patented.

[camb66]

no

[pulga69]

Jesus fecking Christ !!!! How many times has this rubbish to be discussed !!!!??? All this issues with homages, copies and the such has been argued to death every two weeks and never changes.
For those against any watch that resemes another of a high, well known, expensive brand, please do your research of horological history and note that for the last hundred years it has always been the same.
One company releases a model, it becomes popular, others follow trend....and it happens again and again...nobody has complained so much until recently when the big spenders want to ensure exclusivity by wearing something different to the pleb and get very offended if someone with less cash than them wears a watch that "looks" like theirs.
How many times have even big brands have shared case designs and movements ?? Now it is all about "in house" oh please.... :roll: :roll:

I'd feel a bit of a tit wearing a "homage"

Rather than feeling a bit of a twat for paying £4,000 for a £400 watch ?

Even if I didn't own a PAM 312 (which I saved bloody hard for) I would never of purchased that Italian (whether Eddie made it or not) it is just so obviously trying to be something it isn't in my opinion.

You mean the Swiss hommage to the original Italian watches.

[monogroover]

A more relevant question, IMO, is whether either is more acceptable than the other. The blatant ripping off of a design leaving only a brand name to differentiate is no better than an out-and-out fake. I don't even think it matters if the quality of said 'homage' is very good if it is very clearly ripping off a known design. I hold these watches in equally low regard, be it a £5 fake Rolex or several hundred pounds worth of Steinhart that blatantly rips the same Rolex design but simply changes the brand name. All IMO, of course.

Yet mechanical watch movements can be very similar in design with respect to the way they work, from one manufacturer to another. Ditto car engines, for example. Spark plugs, cylinders, timing belt, five speed gearbox operated by a lever next to the driver's seat .. etc. The various manufacturers can't all have come up with the basic design of a combustion engine and the rest of a car independently.

But somehow we don't think of (say) a Ford Focus as a ripoff of someone else's design, or even a 'homage'. It's only when it's a cosmetic similarity that we seem to care.

[Karl]

IMO yes they are fakes pretending not to be fakes!

At very best they are ridiculous copy cats. People only buy them because they can't afford the real thing!

How the f*** do you know what someone can afford.

Why the f** buy the fakey/hommage if you can afford and want the real thing then!

and yes and we can all swear as well!

Because I want the f***** hommage that's why! I'm buying it for me not you :roll: some people buy the homage plus the real thing. So that blows your idiotic cant afford it comment.

[Karl]

Even if I didn't own a PAM 312 (which I saved bloody hard for) I would never of purchased that Italian (whether Eddie made it or not) it is just so obviously trying to be something it isn't in my opinion.

You mean the Swiss hommage to the original Italian watches.

:lol:

[earlsy]

I think that, when you see the care and planning that go into the PRS watches, it makes you realise that you can buy a well designed and well made watch without having to pay the ridiculous prices associated with Swiss brands.

I think that Panerai and Rolex have more in common with Louis Vuitton than they do with any artisan watchmaker.

[Pitch3110]

I love my fake...... :blackeye:

[thattallchap]

How about those Ferarri 360 fakes/clones/hommages you see? Are they ok as long as they have no prancing horse badges on?

Cock!

[RobM]

A more relevant question, IMO, is whether either is more acceptable than the other. The blatant ripping off of a design leaving only a brand name to differentiate is no better than an out-and-out fake. I don't even think it matters if the quality of said 'homage' is very good if it is very clearly ripping off a known design. I hold these watches in equally low regard, be it a £5 fake Rolex or several hundred pounds worth of Steinhart that blatantly rips the same Rolex design but simply changes the brand name. All IMO, of course.

Yet mechanical watch movements can be very similar in design with respect to the way they work, from one manufacturer to another. Ditto car engines, for example. Spark plugs, cylinders, timing belt, five speed gearbox operated by a lever next to the driver's seat .. etc. The various manufacturers can't all have come up with the basic design of a combustion engine and the rest of a car independently.

But somehow we don't think of (say) a Ford Focus as a ripoff of someone else's design, or even a 'homage'. It's only when it's a cosmetic similarity that we seem to care.

Of course, but then you're talking about mechanical and operational design rather than cosmetic design. Following the car analogy, what about the Chinese car the Geely CE, which is a blatant copy (or homage, should I say) of a Rolls Royce Phantom: Link.

The mechanics of a lot of watch movements will be very similar to each other, just as the internal combustion engine in a Ford will be very similar to a Vauxhall and many others. But that's not what this thread and debate is about, this is about cosmetic design. The reverse also happens and sparks its own debate, namely watches that look very different but share the same internal movement... something that seems to have upset the Panerai community recently ;)

[SSK007]

:D Lovely watches!

Heres a few fakes I have / had :roll:

[paw3001]

IMO yes they are fakes pretending not to be fakes!

At very best they are ridiculous copy cats. People only buy them because they can't afford the real thing!

How the f*** do you know what someone can afford.

Why the f** buy the fakey/hommage if you can afford and want the real thing then!

and yes and we can all swear as well!

Because I want the f***** hommage that's why! I'm buying it for me not you :roll: some people buy the homage plus the real thing. So that blows your idiotic cant afford it comment.

Oh you're a bit angry aren't you!

[Karl]

Well no I'm in very good mood today :D where as you will probably always be a f idiot :lol:

IMO yes they are fakes pretending not to be fakes!

At very best they are ridiculous copy cats. People only buy them because they can't afford the real thing!

How the f*** do you know what someone can afford.

Why the f** buy the fakey/hommage if you can afford and want the real thing then!

and yes and we can all swear as well!

Because I want the f***** hommage that's why! I'm buying it for me not you :roll: some people buy the homage plus the real thing. So that blows your idiotic cant afford it comment.

Oh you're a bit angry aren't you!

[WatchScout]

Sorry I never meant to insult or offend Eddie but did I miss the part in the terms and conditions which stated that differing opinions to the fanboys are not allowed when I signed up. Maybe the forum should have a minimum ownership policy before you can sign up!

If Homage vs. fakes posts are insulting to the Forum maybe they should be banned and then us new non Forum fanboys will know the score?

Whoa, Betty! Please do not twist my words! :mrgreen:

I never once in this thread mentioned, that "homage vs fake posts are insulting to the forum."

How ever, Eddie makes the PRS-20, wich is a homage and of course not a fake.


Sorry, this is BS.

[Chartman69]

These threads always bring the worst out of people and bad language appears on WT , as a Pattern for imitation can we align this with a 'Real Tan Vs a Fake Tan' debate ?, is a 'Fake Tan' just a Hommage or is it a breach of copyright and Patent ? these and many more important questions answered when I have emptied my bowels ! Jeeeeez !!!!

[burnsey66]

These threads always bring the worst out of people and bad language appears on WT , as a Pattern for imitation can we align this with a 'Real Tan Vs a Fake Tan' debate ?, is a 'Fake Tan' just a Hommage or is it a breach of copyright and Patent ? these and many more important questions answered when I have emptied my bowels ! Jeeeeez !!!!

Agree, but whilst everyone is in a mood, can we clarify how many M's in 'homage' please (or is it hommage) :mrgreen:

[jem0911]

These threads always bring the worst out of people and bad language appears on WT , as a Pattern for imitation can we align this with a 'Real Tan Vs a Fake Tan' debate ?, is a 'Fake Tan' just a Hommage or is it a breach of copyright and Patent ? these and many more important questions answered when I have emptied my bowels ! Jeeeeez !!!!

Agree, but whilst everyone is in a mood, can we clarify how many M's in 'homage' please (or is it hommage) :mrgreen:

Both are aceptable so I understand.

[roadkingrider]

China mass-produces countless fake brand-name consumer goods, from shoes and handbags to DVDs and iPods, even WATCHES. But after tainted milk killed six Chinese children and sickened about 300,000 in 2008, the spread of HOMAGE CONDOMS further demonstrates that unscrupulous manufacturers will stop at nothing to turn a profit.

Authorities estimate that up to a third of the CONDOMS used in some parts of China are HOMAGE, despite improvements in state food and drug oversight. None of the HOMAGE CONDOMS are properly sterilized, and others are of such inferior quality that they could rupture during use. Authorities say they're all dangerous. HOMAGE CONDOMS carry labels of popular brands such as Durex, Rough Rider, Love Card and Adox.

"The quality of the HOMAGE CONDOMS cannot be guaranteed, and they can easily break," said Cheng Feng, director of the group Family Health International, China. "Such condoms definitely cannot play the role of contraception and disease prevention."

depends

On what?

I don't see a problem so long as there are no copyright issues, many things not just watches have a nod to something else, cars, tv, sports equipment.

[paw3001]

Well no I'm in very good mood today :D where as you will probably always be a fucking idiot :lol:

IMO yes they are fakes pretending not to be fakes!

At very best they are ridiculous copy cats. People only buy them because they can't afford the real thing!

How the f*** do you know what someone can afford.

Why the f** buy the fakey/hommage if you can afford and want the real thing then!

and yes and we can all swear as well!

Because I want the f***** hommage that's why! I'm buying it for me not you :roll: some people buy the homage plus the real thing. So that blows your idiotic cant afford it comment.

Oh you're a bit angry aren't you!

No, I'm not but you have proved that you are!

Thank you!

[bigmul]

Agree, but whilst everyone is in a mood, can we clarify how many M's in 'homage' please (or is it hommage) :mrgreen:

I believe it's "homage", you see "hommage" is in fact just playing homage to the very word! :wink:

[Chartman69]

You say Potatoe ,I say Tomatoe, lets drop the whole damn thing ! :lol:

[Andy H]

China mass-produces countless fake brand-name consumer goods, from shoes and handbags to DVDs and iPods, even WATCHES. But after tainted milk killed six Chinese children and sickened about 300,000 in 2008, the spread of HOMAGE CONDOMS further demonstrates that unscrupulous manufacturers will stop at nothing to turn a profit.

Authorities estimate that up to a third of the CONDOMS used in some parts of China are HOMAGE, despite improvements in state food and drug oversight. None of the HOMAGE CONDOMS are properly sterilized, and others are of such inferior quality that they could rupture during use. Authorities say they're all dangerous. HOMAGE CONDOMS carry labels of popular brands such as Durex, Rough Rider, Love Card and Adox."The quality of the HOMAGE CONDOMS cannot be guaranteed, and they can easily break," said Cheng Feng, director of the group Family Health International, China. "Such condoms definitely cannot play the role of contraception and disease prevention."

In this case the "Homage" condoms would actually be fakes, as they display the name of a popular brand while not being manufactured by that company.

[village]

I see this thread has produced the usual load of cow dung.......

Other manufacturers use established design cues....always have,always will.
That old chestnut about 'oh,if you want one like that save up for it'....well (1) i personally won't spend £4k on a watch,and (2) i'll wear what i flippin well please thank you very much (as long as its not a fake :wink: ) so i don't want to be dictated to that just because i choose to wear a cheaper watch it in some way makes me sad :roll:


And sorry,but you opened yourself up to this one....

Even if I didn't own a PAM 312 (which I saved bloody hard for) I would never of purchased that Italian (whether Eddie made it or not) it is just so obviously trying to be something it isn't in my opinion.

You mean the Swiss hommage to the original Italian watches.

[RobinMasters]

I'd feel a bit of a tit wearing a "homage"

I feel a tit whatever watch I have on. Two, sometimes.