Talk to me about Grand Seiko (Quartz)

[EdHughes1]

I've decided that I'd like to investigate a quartz Grand Seiko.

Don't know much about them apart from 50 year service intervals which is super cool.

Any better models to choose (or any to avoid)

Never seem to come up for sale, so where is the best place to find one (used), and how much should I be spending?

Cheers
Ed

[drhexagon]

I've never seen the 50 year service interval quoted before. Do you have a link for that?

[drhexagon]

What's making you think of quartz instead of the newer Spring Drive movement?

The cost, I would imagine.

[derek_faker]

The cost, I would imagine.

And the cost of sending it to Japan every three years for a service.

[drhexagon]

And the cost of sending it to Japan every three years for a service.

Nah, it's 50 years according to the OP.

[derek_faker]

Not the spring drive. Their service interval is 3-4 years.

[drhexagon]

Not the spring drive. Their service interval is 3-4 years.

My GS ambitions take a knock every time one of these threads come up.

[grey]

There was a long thread earlier this year on GS Quartz vs Rolex (called something like that :)), which was very informative, with several posters having (had) both.
Graham

[Thewatchbloke]

Your right, they don't come up very often on the used market, but if you're into vintage and you're quick you could snag this Seiko Grand Quartz:

http://www.thewatchsite.com/index.ph...c,34342.0.html

Complete with Kanji daywheel and QQ buckle.

Absolutely cracking watches.

[744ER]

I've decided that I'd like to investigate a quartz Grand Seiko.

Don't know much about them apart from 50 year service intervals which is super cool.

Any better models to choose (or any to avoid)

Never seem to come up for sale, so where is the best place to find one (used), and how much should I be spending?

Cheers
Ed

unless Seiko solder their watches together it will need new seals at least every 7-10 years depending on use

[buddy13]

I've decided that I'd like to investigate a quartz Grand Seiko.

Don't know much about them apart from 50 year service intervals which is super cool.

Any better models to choose (or any to avoid)

Never seem to come up for sale, so where is the best place to find one (used), and how much should I be spending?

Cheers
Ed

Ed,

You have to look no further.

Seiko is the master of Quartz watches. Period.

I know a real japanese gentleman and he can definitely give you a good price. PM me if you want more details....

[yonsson]

Pure watch sex! -But quartz isn't for me! I get the whole no service and no hassle thing, but still...

[zecko]

Thought I should repost this from a few years ago, my experience with GS as an expat WIS in Japan a long time ago!

I like the posts about Grand Seikos, and all the people offended by the comparison to Rolex, (or even Patek although not too sure about that one, my grail being the World Time in Platinum)

The fact remains that Grand Seikos, especially the Spring Drive, are far superior from a horological perspective to a Swiss watch of the same price range (or even double the price). The research and development spent on these pieces is just incredible. They don't just buy ETA bases and gold-plate the rotor. They re-invent watchmaking every decade or so. The finish on the hands and indices is also second to none.

I lived in Japan for two years and at the time Grand Seikos and Credor were not popular with the middle classes, who would usually go for the bling of the mass produced Rolex/Breitling/Omega. The Grand Seiko buyer was the proud Japanese senior exec who knew about the superiority of the brand. You could only buy them in a few shops and at the luxury departments of big department stores. Your typical Japanese satcho (CEO) would wear a GS and buy his wife gold Rolex to go along with the Mikimoto pearls.

For me this brand holds a particular mystique, which is only reinforced by the fact that they are not sold outside Japan. Most people think that it's because Grand Seiko would not be able to compete abroad because of its Seiko name but I'm sure they don't export because they will not compromise on the quality of their pieces and therefore easily sell their small production domestically.

I looked into buying a used one this summer in Tokyo and was stunned by the resale value, which is 5-10% under retail, while you can easily find a mint SD or GMT for 300,000 (£2k) yen in every one of the hundreds of used watches stores in the city. The Japanese market is flooded with swiss watches and you can even find them in discount megastores such as the Don Quijote chain (the equivalent here would be LIDL)

I was pleasantly surprised on that visit to Tokyo to see a bigger presence of the Grand Seiko brand outside the Ginza, and noticed the buyers seemed younger too. It was by far the most popular counter in the watch department at Yodadashi (dpt. store in techy district of Akihabara) something that would have been impossible of 5-10 years ago. Seeing these young trendy hipsters shunning Rolex reminded me of that scene in the movie Kill Bill when a Japanese girl tells a guy in a bar who's flashing the keys to his Ferrari "what, that Italian trash"

So for the Grand Seiko bashers out there, remember that in the end the better product prevails, regardless of origin. Think of your Japanese car, TV, phone or perhaps the very LCD screen on which your reading this right now.

So I tip my hat to the buyer of this GS GMT, it is one of the finest timepieces I have seen on these pages and make me regret not buying a GS last summer in Tokyo. I would have but I never buy new, preferring to buy used for much les £££, on the sales corner here, eBay or grey market in the US. Was looking for a SBGT019 or a handwind with the 9s54a movement such as this (but not a limited ed.)
http://www.ninanet.net/watches/others03 ... seiko.html

I just couldn't get myself to pay retail or near retail, hoping to find a deal (I didn't...although the search yielded a nice Chaumet for my wife) I guess that says something about the true value of the Grand Seiko.

[GlennO]

Don't forget the Citizen Chronomaster.
I prefer it to most of the GS quartz models, albeit mainly just on aesthetic grounds, and I like that it has some lume. Some would also argue that Citizen's A660 movement has a slight edge over Seiko's 9F series. Either way you can't go wrong, beautiful watches!

[Tokyo Tokei]

The GS quartz movement looks nicer ( to my eyes ) than the Citizen. I prefer the case and dial of the GS. The Citizen has a perpetual calendar though, which is useful.

Have never been able to verify the "50 year service interval" thing. It's not in the Grand Seiko literature I have, which I suspect it would be if it was a genuine manufacturer claim. The comment pops up regularly on English-language watch forums, unreferenced.

Be interested if anyone has a primary source for this claim.

Paul

[Tokyo Tokei]

So ... bit of digging online at Seiko's Japanese website finds that there is a comment that the mechanics of the movement are enclosed within a sealed chamber, to prevent dust getting in or oil leaking out, when the back is removed for the battery change. It goes on to mention, parenthetically, that "in theory, it is thus protected by oil for 50 years"

Not completely convinced that this is the same as "no servicing required for 50 years" but it probably accounts for the legend.

The page is here if you want to run through your favourite mistranslator.

Paul

[yonsson]

So ... bit of digging online at Seiko's Japanese website finds that there is a comment that the mechanics of the movement are enclosed within a sealed chamber, to prevent dust getting in or oil leaking out, when the back is removed for the battery change. It goes on to mention, parenthetically, that "in theory, it is thus protected by oil for 50 years"

Not completely convinced that this is the same as "no servicing required for 50 years" but it probably accounts for the legend.

The page is here if you want to run through your favourite mistranslator.

Paul

The battery doesn't have a life of 50 years, so what is that all about? It would still need a new battery within 10 years...
And why are we talking about oil and quartz @ the same time?

[Tokyo Tokei]

It was an attempt to fathom the origin of the oft-repeated ( on non-Japanese watch fora ) of "50 year service intervals" for Grand Seiko quartz. I was suggesting that Seiko have never claimed this, but that they do mention that the sealed main housing allows battery changes without exposing the movement parts to dust, or allowing oil to egress. They ( Seiko ) comment that in theory then, the oil could last 50 years. This is not the same as no servicing required in that time, clearly, but it may well be the origin of the legend.

I like the watches, they are well made, and the "double pulse" tick does have a certain aloof authority.

Paul

[china]

And why are we talking about oil and quartz @ the same time?

I would've thought there are moving parts inside a quartz watch also?

[NORVAL]

The first one I bought was a 4840-8041 from 1976, found it at Molle Watch.
What a joy, good size ( 37 mm ), spot on accuracy, second hand hits all markers around, once a month comes out with me.

Second one was Ref. SBGX061 ; Quartz 9F62 ; +/- 10 sec. year ; Diam = 37 mm
Price : 150.000,0 YEN = 1.440,0 Euros + 110,0 Import = 1.550,0 Euros
What a disaster !!, accuracy is ver bad one month ( + 4 sec. ), nest month goes back to ( - 6 sec. ) and so on. I was so frustated that didn't reach end of the year.
Second hand miss most of the case markers, looks like a 30,0 Euro watch. No lume on hands, no light reflection on hands against the black dial, result completly blind when the sun goes down. Case wears smaller, specially on a leather strap.

Final comment : Go for the vintage models, they were made to perfection. You must have one, these models are part of quartz Japanese excelent industry.

Pedro

[abraxas]

I've never seen the 50 year service interval quoted before. Do you have a link for that?

The Seiko 9F has a vacuum sealed movement and 50 year service intervals (except battery changes). The Citizen A660 has lume (big deal, hehe) but the Seikos are much more refined.

john

[Tokyo Tokei]

The Seiko 9F has a 50 year service interval (except battery changes).

Out of interest, do you have a primary source for that ? The only reference from Seiko I can find is a fairly throwaway comment about the theoretical lifespan of movement oil, as mentioned above.

Just intrigued as to the origin of this common claim.

Paul

[Tokyo Tokei]

The Seiko 9F has a vacuum sealed movement

Sorry not going for you here, but again, is there a primary source for this too ? The only mention I can see from Seiko is that the rotor mechanism is enclosed in an airtight ( note, not vacuum sealed ! ) enclosure to help prevent dust getting in or oil getting out.

Very happy to be pointed to an authoritative source.

Paul

[abraxas]

Out of interest, do you have a primary source for that ? The only reference from Seiko I can find is a fairly throwaway comment about the theoretical lifespan of movement oil, as mentioned above.

Just intrigued as to the origin of this common claim.

Paul

The rotor and gear train of caliber 9F are tightly sealed in a self-contained cabin. This guarantees the long lasting quality and precision of the movement by preventing dust entering when the case back is opened for battery replacement.c This 'super sealed' cabin mechanism also increases the life of the lubricating oils that ensure the smooth operation of the gear train. Theoretically, additional lubrication is not needed for fifty years.

http://www.grand-seiko.com/manufacture/9f-quartz.html

There is absolutely no reason for the watch not to run for that period. I know much lesser movements that have been running for more than 30 years ... they have to say theoretically because they haven't got 50 years to spare testing it.

john

[Tokyo Tokei]

I don't doubt it. I have a 70s Japanese analogue quartz and it runs fine. It has never been serviced. But the question was, do you have any primary source for the oft-repeated iclaim that the GS quartz has 50 year service intervals ? I can't find one.

Paul

[abraxas]

I don't doubt it. I have a 70s Japanese analogue quartz and it runs fine. It has never been serviced. But the question was, do you have any primary source for the oft-repeated iclaim that the GS quartz has 50 year service intervals ? I can't find one.

Paul

The link I gave above is all you are going to get.

john

[Tokyo Tokei]

Thought so. So it's indeed a myth, perpetuated on the internet.

Still, nice watches regardless.

Paul

[kraftar]

Now that Jura's left the city, is Selfridges the only place in London that carries GS? And is there any store in London that carries the Citizen Chronomaster?

[Plake]

Thought so. So it's indeed a myth, perpetuated on the internet.

Still, nice watches regardless.

Paul

The link John gave was to the manufacturer's own site, not a fanboy opinion. As primary sources go that's as good as it gets.

[Thewatchbloke]

However, it does state that theoretically additional lubrication is not required for 50 years. As the 9F was introduced in 1993 we will have to wait until 2043 before it's conclusively demonstrated that theory becomes fact.

[Tokyo Tokei]

The link given was the same page as I gave earlier ... though mine was the Japanese original from which the link John gave was translated, so I would politely suggest mine was the more authoritative

Neither page says anything about a 50 year service interval nor vacuum sealed movement. There is more to a watch than the oil on the rotor mechanism.

Anyway, wasn't trying to start a war, was just interested to find out if anyone had a source for that oft repeated claim. So far, nothing.

Paul

[markrlondon]

Now that Jura's left the city, is Selfridges the only place in London that carries GS?

So it seems. Seemingly up to date AD list here: http://www.grand-seiko.com/store/europe/uk.html

And is there any store in London that carries the Citizen Chronomaster?

Good question. I don't know of any high end Citizen dealers (not to say there aren't any).

Note that ttbomk the Chronomaster is now obsoleted and has been replaced by 'The Citizen' quartz, automatic and Ecodrive models. http://citizen.jp/the-citizen/lineup/index.html

[JapanWatchConnection]

First of all, the Citizen "The Citizen" Chronomaster whether it is the A660 battery operated models, the newest A010 caliber Eco-Drive solar models or the mechanical models are only sold in the Japan domestic market at the moment. You will not find them stocked anywhere outside of Japan.

Here is the direct link to the "The Citizen" collection. Use Google translate:

http://citizen.jp/the-citizen/index.html

If you want one, I highly recommend direct ordering it from Katsu Higuchi.

In a nutshell, the quartz Chronomasters have the following features, not found on the equivalent Grand Seiko 9F quartz models:

- Fully automatic perpetual calendar

- Independent set hour hand (You can change the hour hand without hacking the movement, very convenient for travel or DST time adjustments)

- the older battery operated A660 models have lumed hands and markers (The lume is fabulous and longer lasting and brighter than some "Diving" watches)

- A010 Eco-Drive as well as A660 Chronomasters are factory regulated to -/+ 5 seconds per year out of the box (Far better than any Swiss COSC superquartz movement, typically rated to -/+ 15 secs a year)

- Battery life in the A660 models is 5 years. I believe the Eco-Drive A010 versions have over 180 days total power reserve.

- The A010 Eco-Drive movements have 30 JEWELS (Yes you read that right) and the plates are exquisitely finished with "Tokyo stripes"



- The A660 battery operated movement has a total of 17 jewels (and you thought that high jeweled movements were only mechanical, ha!)

- These watches come with a full all-inclusive 10-year manufacturer's warranty. The warranty includes free inspections, adjustments, batteries (If you have an A660), water gaskets, pressure test and free case and bracelet re-polishing service. Best warranty coverage in the watch industry hands down. The catch? You have to send the watch back to Japan for servicing (Usually you would send it back to Katsu Higuchi, who in turn, would send it back to Citizen Japan, Heiwa watch studio where these watches are put together by hand).

I can tell you and educate you so much more about these wonderful watches. They are not for everyone. This is a watch made for the hardcore WIS at heart that also has a deep appreciation for the absolute best put together quartz watches in the planet and also craves high accuracy, VIP warranty and promise of parts and service availability for your watch for the rest of your life. These are the Pateks of quartz watch world.

Here is my ex- CTQ57-0961 (Sadly discontinued) A660 Chronomaster quartz made in stainless steel and specially treated with Duratect scratch resistant coating in the case and bracelet:



The case is 38mm by 10.2mm thick



Nicely engraved caseback. Rated to 100m or 10 bar WR.



Hand polished case with distortion free "Zaratsu" hand technique which is very labor intensive and also used in all Grand Seiko watches:











This is the 10 year plastic credit card like guarantee document. This gives you full VIP access to "The Citizen" service and repairs with a dedicated line and repair facilities. The watch must be registered to a Japanese street address (In this case Katsu Higuchi's shop in Oita) but you get to keep the card. When you send the watch back to Japan for service, you must enclose the card with the watch. The card has a magnetic reader in the back. Where you see "2/2020" means the warranty for this watch will expire on February 2020. The registration process is completed by Katsu before he ships out the watch and the card is mailed to your country of residence. Very cool, eh?

[JapanWatchConnection]

37mm case by 9.9mm thick. Around 130g weight.













Here you can see the "Twin Pulse" action of the seconds hand. The 9F quartzes don't "tick" like your garden variety quartz. It is every interesting to say the least:



Fit and finish is exceptional, as expected on any top shelf Grand Seiko watch:



In terms of quality "feel" and finish properties, both the Citizen and the Grand Seiko are almost equals. I would give the GS a slight "edge" on the bling and detailing department but the attention given to both is exceptional and you will not be disappointed on either.

One cool aspect of the 9F that can be better appreciated in the day/date models is the ultra rapid calendar change which is mechanically actuated via a spring (This is one reason why the GS quartz does not have perpetual calendar)It only takes 1/2000 of a second (Faster than the blink of the human eye) to change the date. Also the day/date switch is guaranteed to take place exactly at midnight! The day wheel is shown both in English and Kanji.

The Citizen Chronomaster is the technological tour de force, the ultimate set and forget high accuracy quartz watch. The GS above is rated to -/+ 10 secs a year right out of the box (Mine was scary accurate whether it was worn on the wrist for 8+ hours a day or stored at room temperature) but the Seiko philosophy with the GS 9F is to give a high precision quartz watch, the look and feel of a fine mechanical watch. Contradictory? not really, it is just an interesting approach. For example, note the long and heavy beveled hands on the Grand Seiko above...The extend far out to the outer dial markers. These hands are the same exact ones used in Grand Seiko mechanical models and one of the reasons why the battery life is only 3 years, because the twin pulse motor requires more power to move them.

[Daddelvirks]

If they put that fabulous eco-drive high-end movement from the "The Citizen" series in a good looking divers watch..............heaven.
Why don't Seiko and Citizen put their high-end quartz movements in a diver???

Daddel.

[JapanWatchConnection]

If the put that fabulous eco-drive high-end movement from the "The Citizen" series in a good looking divers watch..............heaven.
Why don't Seiko and Citizen put their hig-end quartz movements in a diver???

Daddel.

Because there is no market interest for an expensive HEQ diver watch. Witness what happened to the Seiko Prospex SBCM023 8F35? Its gone! (I also owned a couple of those).

Seiko believes the market for high end desk divers is better suited for mechanicals and Spring Drive. Hey at least you can get the Tuna can with the excellent Seiko 7C46 high torque quartz movement.

In my talks with Seiko's high brass, I was promised about the introduction of thermo compensated Spring Drive movements. Imagine a 5 to 10 secs a year SD movement with no battery whatsoever?

[markrlondon]

In my talks with Seiko's high brass, I was promised about the introduction of thermo compensated Spring Drive movements. Imagine a 5 to 10 secs a year SD movement with no battery whatsoever?

Most interesting!

[Plake]

I also have this 8J56 GS quartz which from the serial was made either in '97 or '07! (Starts 73******) if anyone has any ideas on which is correct I'd be glad to hear them.

It does have lume on the hands/dial and it does have an independently adjustable hour hand. Also has a screw down crown and a capped seconds hand.

Almost impossible to find though.

[markrlondon]

I also have this 8J56 GS quartz which from the serial was made either in '97 or '07! (Starts 73******) if anyone has any ideas on which is correct I'd be glad to hear them.
[...]
Almost impossible to find though.

Wow, I really like that. Never seen it before. Looking at the style I'm 85% sure that would be 1997, not 2007.

Do you have the full movement-case ref for it?

[Plake]

It's 8J56-8000

Picked it up from a Japanese seller. Bracelet is a little small for me but I think it would look nice on a leather strap.

[WatchScout]

I also have this 8J56 GS quartz which from the serial was made either in '97 or '07! (Starts 73******) if anyone has any ideas on which is correct I'd be glad to hear them.

It does have lume on the hands/dial and it does have an independently adjustable hour hand. Also has a screw down crown and a capped seconds hand.

Almost impossible to find though.

I quite like that!
Quite a departure from the usual fare.
Reminded me a bit of the Laureato at first sight and thats a compliment.

[markrlondon]

It's 8J56-8000

Picked it up from a Japanese seller. Bracelet is a little small for me but I think it would look nice on a leather strap.

Thanks.





.

[Daddelvirks]

Because there is no market interest for an expensive HEQ diver watch. Witness what happened to the Seiko Prospex SBCM023 8F35? Its gone! (I also owned a couple of those).

Seiko believes the market for high end desk divers is better suited for mechanicals and Spring Drive. Hey at least you can get the Tuna can with the excellent Seiko 7C46 high torque quartz movement.

In my talks with Seiko's high brass, I was promised about the introduction of thermo compensated Spring Drive movements. Imagine a 5 to 10 secs a year SD movement with no battery whatsoever?

Cheers for the info.

But In the case of the spring-drive I don´t mind, my Ananta SD chrono is so very precise I don't even bother to check it anymore.
And the Tuna is indeed a watch I still heve to own.

Daddel.

[Ellietwed]

I quite like that!
Quite a departure from the usual fare.
Reminded me a bit of the Laureato at first sight and thats a compliment.

Mmmmm...I really like that 8J56-8000
I;ve been toying with the idea of picking up an SBGX061 or 63 for some time now but the 8J56 is a beauty...shame its rarer than a rare thing

[744ER]

I also have this 8J56 GS quartz which from the serial was made either in '97 or '07! (Starts 73******) if anyone has any ideas on which is correct I'd be glad to hear them.

It does have lume on the hands/dial and it does have an independently adjustable hour hand. Also has a screw down crown and a capped seconds hand.

Almost impossible to find though.

A half-assed attempt at copying the Omega Seamaster bond watch. Horrific.

[Plake]

A half-assed attempt at copying the Omega Seamaster bond watch. Horrific.

Interesting interpretation. The bracelet is very similar to the SMP bond design.

The rest of it is basically a dress watch with GS grammar in terms of the case design/lug shapes/dial and hand design. Not similar to the Omega at all in the metal actually. Much more interesting.

[ryanb741]

A half-assed attempt at copying the Omega Seamaster bond watch. Horrific.

744ER in 'I think Grand Seiko sucks' shocker. In other surprising news, the earth is round, smoking is unhealthy and the Greek economy is struggling.....