This.Originally Posted by learningtofly
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
The logo clouds further judgement; stuns his powers of observation.
Indeed Lampoc; you get a perfectly good watch at a serious discount because of the branding. Because the mates in the pub (or on the watch forum) wear very much the same thing with a perceived as respectable brand... How silly does that make us?!
Oh dear; you are taking the snobbism to an entirely different level still!
Btw. You do realise that the calibers in your Omegas are ETA?
Secondly: then why are Omega and Rolex the by far biggest customers of COSC and are they making such a big differentiating marketing thing of it?
To make this whole desirability thing a lot simpler, why don't we just set up a TZ-UK Cool Wall - you know, like in Top Gear!
We could have loads of fun with that.
(Only Joking)
Today...I am mostly playing the Forum Idiot.
Last edited by forpetesake; 14th December 2013 at 13:19.
Let me be clear Petrus, I will buy what the hell I like thank you. I have lots of different brands and price points from 10 Euro up to eye watering levels - the most expensive being a brand that receives mixed reception on here and is seldom recognised out and about.
You have to stop beating the same old drum fella - it has become tiresome and it does nothing other than cause page after page of disagreement.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Did you miss the bit where I said I'd throw away the case and dial? :)
Thanks for the heads up though - I now have "Invicta chronometer" saved in my ebay searches. If I can get one at the right price I'll be doing some serious modding. I still wouldn't be seen wearing a watch with Invicta on the dial!
The point that the op makes about brand snobbery is an interesting ( if not very well argued ) one.
Take Seiko for example. If you go on amazon or lot's of other sites in the UK you will see an RRp of maybe £300 for a watch and an actual price of £150ish. It's not just amazon with an amazing price, all the retailers are selling for a similar amount. This sort of sales strategy seems to be one of the most common gripes with Invicta, yet Seiko is still one of the darlings of the forum.
Last edited by coldwarkid; 14th December 2013 at 13:26.
Why snobbery? As the point has been made, once you move beyond buying a digital watch for £25 to tell the time, all decisions are subjective. That's part of the enjoyment!
The calibre in my last Omega, which was a Memomatic, was all Omega.
Invicta should send Christmas cards to their customers
I was slightly struggling to understand the premise of the thread, but that clarifies it.
Then again, Petrus, it's nothing new, is it?
We know how much Grand Seiko (and Ananta perhaps too) don't appeal because they're made by Seiko – a brand that maybe reaches its upper limit at about £3-400 on a SARB.
Beyond that, the perception is, they have no cachet.
It's an interesting marketing tactic...one you'd think was entirely see-through. The opposite of the luxury brands that have a huge control of their RRPs. I had to buy Chanel perfume as a Christmas gift. The price did not vary at all from one shop to the next. Chanel was also one of the only brands not participating in any sale event.
Today? Only today?
I don't doubt that it's a well-made watch but I couldn't live with that seconds hand, what were they thinking?
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
No I did not miss that.
The case and bracelet would be very much your loss as the chrono engines are house quite nicely.
Now let us look at it objectively-
We have here a choice of certified chronometer calibers in befitting hardware at a price less then the sum of its parts.
Especially those who réally know a bit about watches get that.
That would make these certified chronometer Invictas;
- VERY good tangible value for money
- réal wis choises
I would happily buy a sub 500 Euros certified 7750 Invicta Rolex Leopard lookalike AND wear it!! The watch thing is after all a personal pleasure, whichever sort of pleasure that may be, and it would give me great personal pleasure
The IN-YOUR-FACE logo on the dial gets no price either imo.
Both seconds hand and dial are easily/cheaply enough replaced by something of choise; sterile, custom printed, whatever. It is 2824-2 after all.
Is it you selling it? If not and you are berating WIS for not buying it...why didn't you buy it?
Absolutely nothing to do with snobbery, but certainly a factor is someone attempting to sell a watch in ‘as new’ condition when it certainly isn’t.
It was way over-priced at 300 Euro’s and still over-priced at 195 Euros.
All IMO.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
No, that's a whole different conversation isn't it?
The in-house movement advantages threads have been on the go for years and years, and what ever in-house DOESN'T offer in terms of VFM or cost & complication of manufacture it at least means you shouldn't find a £79.99 watch from amazon with the same movement as a £799 watch
I think that Invicta's problem [as others gave said] is that as a perceived low value brand, it's hard for them to peddle a superior product
But as you say - it was posted on a watch forum, someone should've grabbed a decent bargain, realising what it was (I do wonder if the Sellita movement was a bit of a barrier compared to ETA)
I did quite like that COSC chrono that someone posted a link to
I'd pay the asking price just to be able to take a hammer to it.
At the heart of the issue, you're trying to take the Invicta that you're asking about and look at it in isolation as strictly the mechanical device that it is, separated from what we know about the brand. I get that. But you're asking us to ignore what we know about after sales service, which I and others have already mentioned is complete and utter crap. And you're asking us to consider the watch by itself and not as a part of an entire range of watches offered by Invicta, many of which are so horrifyingly ugly that pictures of these watches are routinely trotted out whenever someone starts a thread about the ugliest watch they have ever seen.
I refuse to accept the premise that I'm a snob because I don't want to be associated with a company that provides awful customer service and produces watches so ugly that they could name one the "Medusa" and none would think there was anything odd about the appellation.
My point exáctly!
There are several well enough made Invicta branded time keeping instruments on offer that will suit one´s taste/mood for relative bargain price.I did quite like that COSC chrono that someone posted a link to
If the ´poor taste bling´ would be an argument not to accept them for what they are, why then are the, to name just two, Cartier Santos and Rolex Sub acceptable?
What he said. Why don't you just buy it and then start a thread boasting about what a bargain you just picked up.
Or is it simply your watch that didn't sell?
We should really do this.
I lolled.
In order for it to be a perfect example of your point (which I agree with in large part) the Invicta and Tudor would need to be identical not only as timekeeping devices, but they would need to be identical in terms of build quality, have equally positive customer service and hold an equal percentage of their value at resale.
There are still too many rational, fact-based arguments that can be made in favor of the Tudor.
If you think the lack of sale is due to ‘snobbism’ of watch forum members then you could always try to sell it on eBay, as good a non-snob platform as you can find.
But a search of Invicta watches that have successfully sold on there will soon disapprove the theory that there is something desirable about the brand.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Why the sudden U-turn? you have said on many occasions that Sapphire is not a good choice and than chronometer time keeping is poor, so why are you now saying these are plus points on this Invicta?The Invicta 4463 is a quite well made case with sapphire and a chronometer 2824-2 inside.
This one in as new condition, complete b&p including chronometer certificate
failed to sell for 195 euros incl. shipping.
There we have it; the mechanical fashion reduced to its core; fashionable desireabilty.
Let's not even get into the stupidity of producing a 500M "dive watch" without a bezel pip or lumed second hand.
Afterthought: Look, I could name my pet pig "Cary Grant". This would not, in fact, make my pet pig Cary Grant.
Last edited by TakesALickin; 14th December 2013 at 15:22.
Does cilla really believe that the watch actually has a swiss cosc certified movement inside it, and that the watch is capable to a depth of 500M, I sure don't.
Clever wording that as the Tudors compair worse in real coins.
Quite so CaptainHowdy; for a tool watch acrylic is better and COSC does not add quality to a caliber.
Sapphire (for the frons and rear window) is a luxury watch lovers´ selling point as is COSC as is mechanical my dear Howdy.
Here we have a watch with all the right specs to be a watch fora fav. save for the brand and behold how it is stamped upon.
As was observed:
- there are watches that are percieved to be more than the sum of their parts because of the branding
- there are watches that are percieved to be less than the sum of their parts because of the branding
Some find that interesting/puzzling, some not.
About pointing it out I cannot see why the former is ok to be endlessly repeated and the latter is superfluous. Does the latter annoy the buyers of the former perhaps? If so why?
´Is that Cosmograph real?´
´Yes? Cool!!!´
´Mine is an authentic COSC mechanical chrono too. I paid 260 quid for it, certificate included. What was yours?´
´Ah....´
Looks like a Rolex, ticks like a Rolex but"........... Not a Rolex - simples.
So a bit like comparing a bottle of cheap Spain plonk with a Margaux. Just because it looks the same, does not mean it is the same.
This is not snobbery it's simply the ability to different the better quality genuine article from a cheap wannabe, and if you have not worked that by now, then there is little hope you every will.
Personally I buy Rolex because they represent the best of best for the type of watch they make - which is type of watch I like. Much in the same way I brought a Porsche 911 rather that a Nissan GTR - which although better in many respectives simply does not have the X factor that the Porsche does.
You also seem to have forgotten that different people like different thing - you like to troll on about why Rolex is rubbish where as I like to own and wear them.
But what really amazes me is that you posted this at 01.30 in the morning.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
You mean that you have conveniently forgotten the thread Daddel opened with the 2012 COSC statistics?!
Well, by all means contact Invicta like you did Seiko.
I for sure would LOVE to see you confirm that Invicta indeed sells a variety of COSC engined watches complete with certificate at wáy below par prices.
My point was to ask if you actually believe what is written on the dial?
What really amazes me is the desperation with which some try to get the attention diverted and/or the messenger discredited.
Pot kettle black
I guess his hatred of Rolex really does keep him awake at night
Er...Yeah...I think So...God forbid we should take ourselves too seriously.
Peter.
In this case I think that the watch was tested and found to be as WR as stated and I know for a fact that it comes with a COSC certificate stating the caliber number in the watch.
I believe the 265 quid certified 7750 too.
I have no trouble believing that these are two examples of watches with calibers certified by the COSC institute for Invicta.
Mý question is whether yoú disbelieve the COSC statistics or their certification?
As I wrote; PLEASE contact Invicta yourself and publish their answer.
...and the 2013 prize for the lowest percentage of watch related posts on Watch Talk goes to.... CAPTAINHOWDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I guess his hatred of Rolex really does keep him awake at night
Looking forward to the answer from Invicta sir.
If not liking Invicta, and that Invicta makes me a Watch Snodpb, then I'm happy to be a completely stuck up watch snob.
It's just a matter of time...
I agree; wear an outraguous Invicta every now and then
or a Snow Resistant Polar No Glare black gull skiïng [img]http://forum.tz-uk.com/images/icons/icon6.png[/img
Not líking a watch does not prevent one from being able to see/admit the value of the parts. Prejudice, snobbery does.
like this one?I agree; wear an outraguous Invicta every now and then
or a Snow Resistant Polar No Glare black gull skiïng [img]http://forum.tz-uk.com/images/icons/icon6.png[/img
Not many people are finding "the value of the parts"
http://www.amazon.com/forum/watches/...x12OW0QRA9YOVA
So did you buy it or not. And if not why not?
But that's like falling in love with a beautiful woman* based solely on her body. You have to be able to at least tolerate what comes out of her mouth as well, and in this case, we can't.
* Please note that I am not comparing the Invicta in question to a beautiful woman. God, no.
Last edited by TakesALickin; 14th December 2013 at 16:41.
Unfortunately you're right.
It seems that the only way to make a diver is copying the rolex´s look. And undefeated this is a clear example.
I don´t question the quality of the machinery. But the poor imagination when designing for sure.
Of course there is a market for these "rolexized" watches.
Sorry, but brands and logos and their mental associations do have value and do change the way you feel about things and sometimes you just need to accept that. Put a Nazi swastika on a watch dial and it suddenly looks a bit different doesn't it? If its £20 and has a COSC certificate that's still not going to make you want to buy it. An extreme example and obviously I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with Invicta as such, though as mentioned they do make some particularly hideous watches, in addition to homages that will always be homages and can only be understood in relation to something else.
It's simply untrue to suggest that the only way to judge a watch is to take it apart and weigh the bits or something, that it can be reduced to its mechanical performance. The intangibles like brand, value and its 'aura' are what makes a watch more interesting than your average lump of metal. It's perfectly reasonable to choose a watch on the basis of these things and you can't truly understand a watch without them.
I'm not trying to be clever, I'm saying that Tudors hold their value better than Invictas, which is one practical reason in favor of Tudor.
I'm not arguing against your basic point; I think a lot about why I prefer some watches to others and am conscious that a lot of my decisions are based on brand, image and advertising. I find the whole thing fascinating.
But one of the reasons I think this "real value vs. real utility vs. advertising" argument goes on and on is that we never stick to the core thesis and go off on tangents (and personal attacks). In my last post I was suggesting that the Tudor vs Invicta argument still has too many variables (Invicta's poor reputation for quality control and customer service, for example) to prove anything conclusively about value vs image in this particular case.
A pure argument would be to see if a Sub with a Rolex crown on the dial would sell for the same amount as a genuine Sub that is identical in every way but with an unbranded dial. But even then we'd have lowered resale value as a tangible factor.
So we're never going to solve it.
Well stated. I particularly like the Nazi swastika analogy. This link may shed a little light on why it's difficult for most of us to generate any love for the brand. The owner sounds like a class A douche bag.
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