VFM - what's it to you?

**Bristolian** · 7th June 2007, 23:19

Ok, so I would guess that everyone will have a very personal interpretation of what ?value for money? means to them ? I?m interested to know how much common ground there might be in respect of Value For Money in terms of watches.

The reason for asking?

I?ve been arguing the point lately in respect of goods & services generally ? and the consensus seems to be that VFM is a token of efficiency in a free market economy: the idea being that the market seeks out VFM and all competition pushes towards delivering it. I think I agree with that basic premise.

BUT

How do you gauge VFM in the watch ?market?.

If Build Quality / Features were the magic combination when considered against price & perceived value, Our Eddie would be king of the world, yet even the Great Unwashed (i.e. the non-WIS hordes?) will pay through the nose for Rollies, Brightblings etc despite the fact that even a little research would send them scurrying off looking for other contenders. What?s really going through their minds (if anything) and how do they justify VFM for a typical watch purchase.

I?d be glad to know what aspects you think drive (should drive) perceptions when it comes to watch purchasing ?VFM? decisions (and in what order ? maybe even a percent split??).

Regards

David

ps - maybe we can sell the research later and buy a small shandy each?!

:) :)

**Dave E** · 7th June 2007, 23:23

You've got to include cachet/perceived worth as a factor, and not just in the non-WIS world. How many times have we seen someone say that they wouldn't pay that much for a Seiko?

**wellsy** · 8th June 2007, 02:14

After hundreds of sales courses, I still see the watch industry as one
of the most interesting examples of Desire far outweighing Need.

We all only need a £50 casio, however...................... :lol:

Ignoring this though,I suggest the average non-wis is swayed far
more heavily by perceived image than any issues of quality.
I would buy Sinn and UTS over Omega and Rolex anytime,but
for the Bod on the street it is difficult to ignore James Bond with
his watch or in fact Neil Armstrong with his.

Just my 50p worth.

Frank

ps When buying desires, I think VFM gets left back in the
shopping centre car park :lol:

**abraxas** · 8th June 2007, 05:15

.
VFM!

What VFM?

This a hobby and VFM goes out of the window, in my book. I get what I want rather than because it's cheap (or expensive, for that matter).

What is the value of a nice and well designed instrument?

john

**Guntram** · 8th June 2007, 05:56

I guess there are as many VFM definitions as there are different understandings of "value".

If a beautifully decorated movement floats your boat, Rolex (for example) just doesn't have anything to offer. If you are into resale value, they are right up there with the best.

If you want a mechanical alarm, you have to skip Eddie's watches. If you want a solid, three-hand or chrono movement with high legibility, you can hardly buy anything else. Unless you really, really, really want a Lemania 5100, then Precista is out the window again.

So whether or not I choose Sinn over Rolex depends on what I'm looking for. A chrono with a diver bezel? No contest. True GMT function? No contest, either.

You catch my drift. :wink:

Guntram

**Chris_in_the_UK** · 8th June 2007, 06:41

I think in the world of watches VFM is does not follow the traditional thought process.

To a WIS the decision comes from the personal 'value' to them having a keen interest in horology - the only balance I think is having sufficient 'money' to fulfil their desire to obtain a watch that they value....

**snoopy** · 8th June 2007, 07:36

Hum...wouldn't you just say it is something you aquire for a substancial amount less then what you should/ its worth?
Independent of you wanting it or not......a Rolex for £300 in good order is VFM, like a new merc with 40% of rrp is good value etc etc etc......I dont think its even a perception, you can quantify it, flip the Rolex for 600 or the merc for 20% off rrp and you are left with a tidy profit, so originally, those items were VFM. With vintage items, mostly they will also have a generic market value so....
Snoopy

**Rinaldo1711** · 8th June 2007, 07:51

Originally Posted by abraxas

.
VFM!

What VFM?

This a hobby and VFM goes out of the window, in my book. I get what I want rather than because it's cheap (or expensive, for that matter).

What is the value of a nice and well designed instrument?

john

I could not have put it better myself (and knowing me probably wouldn't have :))

**PDR** · 8th June 2007, 11:21

I particularly like diving watches so when it comes to VFM, I guess taking note of what various special forces use would be an indicator of VFM?. After all the military aren?t going to pay over the odds just for a ?name?. They want the best they can for the least amount of money = VFM.

The flip side is that sometimes we don?t want to go with the sensible option?.
I mean who really wants a Timex or Sekonda? Or a Skoda (great VFM) over an Audi or VW.

:)

**GeoffD** · 8th June 2007, 22:00

Just to get some ideas on how some of us judge Value for Money, if we take a common example of say a 300m diver with a 316L ss case and using the 2824-2 movement, what would get your vote as the best vfm watch, and why?

**Andrzej** · 9th June 2007, 08:08

Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK

I think in the world of watches VFM is does not follow the traditional thought process.

To a WIS the decision comes from the personal 'value' to them having a keen interest in horology - the only balance I think is having sufficient 'money' to fulfil their desire to obtain a watch that they value....

It s not just the world of watches, as identified in this thread, the moment that something enters the realm of the hobbiest, or other interest, all normal VFM vaues depart whether it is a pair of £1000 racing wheels for a bicycle or £4000 on a turntable for records.

**Neil.C** · 9th June 2007, 08:51

Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK

I think in the world of watches VFM is does not follow the traditional thought process.

To a WIS the decision comes from the personal 'value' to them having a keen interest in horology - the only balance I think is having sufficient 'money' to fulfil their desire to obtain a watch that they value....

Yep, well put Chris. :)

Buying watches is not like comparing toothpaste or washing powder in Tesco. :wink:

**Guntram** · 9th June 2007, 09:04

Originally Posted by GeoffD

Just to get some ideas on how some of us judge Value for Money, if we take a common example of say a 300m diver with a 316L ss case and using the 2824-2 movement, what would get your vote as the best vfm watch, and why?

Here's my vote:

- unobtrusive
- works with a suit if need be
- highly legible
- bracelet with butterfly clasp and a nice contrast between polished and shiny links
- very comfortable on the wrist

- inhouse movement (at least as inhouse as a 2824 ever gets)
- chronometer certified (mine's running at +0.5 s/d)

Found it brand new on eprey for EUR 575, approx. GBP 400, three years ago!

Crummy pic:

Guntram

**BruceS** · 9th June 2007, 11:15

I'm a big fan of Stowa. To me they are a perfect example of VFM. Really all depends on your perspective. Could be a Seiko for many (and they are a great VFM). For my money, though, it's Stowa.

I don't really consider this a technical dive watch, more of a sports watch, but it is in the 300m category.

**Bristolian** · 9th June 2007, 14:49

[quote=Neil.C]

Originally Posted by "Chris_in_the_UK":1mo7nakn

I think in the world of watches VFM is does not follow the traditional thought process.

To a WIS the decision comes from the personal 'value' to them having a keen interest in horology - the only balance I think is having sufficient 'money' to fulfil their desire to obtain a watch that they value....

Yep, well put Chris. :)

Buying watches is not like comparing toothpaste or washing powder in Tesco. :wink:[/quote:1mo7nakn]

Chris / Neil

I quite agree : and its the supposedly 'illogical' thought process that I'm trying to get a fix on.

I do also agree that where watches are a hobby, you will spend your hobby budget as suits your inclinations (save it up for a grail or regularly buy examples of a 'set' fro instance.

What I can't fathom however is what motivates someone who doesnt have huge disposable moolah spending >£1,000 on a watch. Is it a jewellery thing ? How much does branding count for (must be quite a lot or else the fakes industry wouldnt be booming)? Does the pleasure of ownership fade for such people? Do people really buy watches because they see a particular actor wearing one - or see a logo on a F1 car?

Perhaps this highlights what distinguishes a WIS: the price probably isnt too much of an issue - someone like Herr Schauer makes a useful and very enjoyable living but probably isnt minting it, so we see his watches as fair value. The resulting purchase probably pleases the WIS who's rich enough to buy one with his pocket change as much as it pleases the poorer WIS who has to save months or years to get it.

In addition, I think your average WIS has a heightened appreciation of design & ergonomics: other than an element of history I think it's mainly design-for-function (rather than pure aesthetic) that drives an interest in military watches, and poblably the same (minus the history) that applies to desk divers.

IMHO I don't think your non-WIS has the same insight. If we can however just isolate what does 'fry his onions' (to quote Gladders) I think we might all gain a better perspective on this maddeningly addictive pursuit we all seem to spend so much time in. And as previously mentioned, it may have some commercial value (ideally to our generous host!)

Some really interesting comments posted above - thanks guys.

Regards

David

**chansk** · 9th June 2007, 22:27

SB-1
Dreadnought
No need for pics - that's what I call good value for money!

**GeoffD** · 10th June 2007, 11:45

Originally Posted by GeoffD

Just to get some ideas on how some of us judge Value for Money, if we take a common example of say a 300m diver with a 316L ss case and using the 2824-2 movement, what would get your vote as the best vfm watch, and why?

I was curious to see whether this idea would get much interest. Reason ............? A couple of popular watches that meet that spec would be the Stowa Seatime @ ?599 - about £400- there are a few of those owned by forum members, and the Marathon SAR @ $585 - about £300 - again a few of those have been bought by people here, and both of these are usually considered excellent value for money.
Yet Timefactors sell the PRS 18A that meets the spec for £180 and I would have expected it to be an immediate example of vfm.
If we assume that no one has any issues with the PRS-18A on a quality basis, then it means we are willing to pay significantly more for the design. :twisted:

**Bristolian** · 10th June 2007, 12:20

Originally Posted by GeoffD

I was curious to see whether this idea would get much interest. Reason ............? A couple of popular watches that meet that spec would be the Stowa Seatime @ ?599 - about £400- there are a few of those owned by forum members, and the Marathon SAR @ $585 - about £300 - again a few of those have been bought by people here, and both of these are usually considered excellent value for money.
Yet Timefactors sell the PRS 18A that meets the spec for £180 and I would have expected it to be an immediate example of vfm.
If we assume that no one has any issues with the PRS-18A on a quality basis, then it means we are willing to pay significantly more for the design. :twisted:

V fair point Geoff - perhaps it also indicates that the higher the price, the greater the perceived value: maybe you could describe it as 'money-for-value' rather than 'VFM'? Would the same numbers of people buy Breitling if they were a third of the price (ie what you could build and sell for and still make a profit)?

(Stop reading this thread NOW, Eddie.... !)

Im beginning to think that the way to succeed in the watch business is to have a sevicable product, some high profile endorsement, but most importantly an insanely high price. A good example perhaps of a start up business taking this route is Bremont ( http://www.bremont.com )

David

**rfrazier** · 10th June 2007, 13:47

Originally Posted by Bristolian

Im beginning to think that the way to succeed in the watch business is to have a sevicable product, some high profile endorsement, but most importantly an insanely high price. A good example perhaps of a start up business taking this route is Bremont ( http://www.bremont.com )

David

And to have a website that one can't use without having flash installed. (A number of the big houses used to have sites that required flash, but not so many now. Perhaps they learned that folks interested in watches, and well off enough to buy their watches may not want all singing and all dancing websites. )

Best wishes,
Bob

**abraxas** · 10th June 2007, 18:25

Originally Posted by GeoffD

..........

Yet Timefactors sell the PRS 18A that meets the spec for £180 and I would have expected it to be an immediate example of vfm.
If we assume that no one has any issues with the PRS-18A on a quality basis, then it means we are willing to pay significantly more for the design. :twisted:

The PRS-18A is a £350 watch.

john

**GeoffD** · 10th June 2007, 22:16

Originally Posted by abraxas

The PRS-18A is a £350 watch.

john

Well certainly £250 at least, if you use the watch probably closest to it (Yao's MMT Blackwater) as a price comparison.

It's the old, old, saying. Something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
Eddie has decided (it appears) to work on a pricing model that is based on how much mark-up he feels he needs to make to support his business and personal life. Others seem to look at the median price point for a style of watch and then see how cheaply they can produce something to sell into that market. The extreme is those who believe that by offering a product at greatly inflated prices, it provides some kind of cachet or exclusivity.

I applaud Eddie for sticking to his business model - because I don't believe he would sell less PRS-18A's if they were £240.
But he has made a definite statement about the levels of mark-up within the watch industry and has proven that a business can flourish without inflating prices.

**rfrazier** · 10th June 2007, 22:55