Reply With QuoteYou put Helium in quad bike tyres?Originally Posted by seadog1408
I know Helium is rare (and therefore expensive) - Some divers moan about little else (albeit in a very high pitched voice!)
M
The other thing with helium is its getting bloody expensive these days!!!, we are paying around double what we paid 9 years ago for the quads.
You put Helium in quad bike tyres?
I know Helium is rare (and therefore expensive) - Some divers moan about little else (albeit in a very high pitched voice!)
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
The dehumidifying aspect is taklen care of by the moisture absorbing CuSo4 capsule. The inert gas takes care of the problem with oxygenation.
Not unreactive as Helium, Neon, Argon, Krypton, Xenon and Radon (i.e. the inert gasses). Nitrogen reacts readily with other elements, and a nitrogen compounds are used by dentists and midwives (N2O) to give a light anesthesia. Nitrogen compounds are used in some soil fertilizers.Would be simpler to use (dry) nitrogen which is pretty much unreactive.
Last edited by Leif; 4th June 2014 at 12:13.
World (mainly US) reserves expected to run out in ~25 years so increasing prices to be expected.You put Helium in quad bike tyres?
I know Helium is rare (and therefore expensive) - Some divers moan about little else (albeit in a very high pitched voice!)
M
For practical purposes it is inert.
It doesn't react with oxygen in the air to form N2O. Nitrogen fertilisers are made at high temperature/pressure. It is not going to react with the materials in a watch.
Nitrogen forms 78% of the air we breath, 21% is oxygen (roughly). OK...watch oils have to be resistant to oxidation, but I've seen no mention of degradation due atmospheric nitrogen. Is nitrogen degradation a problem?
No. But then, I didn't say that either. I commented on whether nitrogen could be seen as an inert gas.
I don't think anyone has suggested that nitrogen could be seen as an inert gas. What was said, and you quoted, was:
So, what you said was correct, but you did not, as far as I can see, give any reason why it would not "be simpler to use (dry) nitrogen".
There's some pretty wierd stuff and home "engineering" going on in this thread, I think. Some very good points too.
The CUSO4, like Ar and Diapal too are, to me, some of Sinn's efforts to create a USP based on technical advantage.
They are all advancements, of that there is no doubt.
However, they are perhaps of negligible benefit in relation to the complexity they use and require on an ongoing basis.
But they have been used to bump Sinn's pricing from their original no-nonsense tool watches to something more costly. Fine, I have no problem with that.
But the benefit is marginal at best. Theory would indicate improved performance, but in the real wold over the resonable service internval of a watch, it would be usual for no benefit to be observed.
Doesn't stop me having an EZM1. However, I would have preferred it to be designed without these twiddles.
Dave
And Helium?? No way would they use it. As previously stated, Helium is made to escape. I am sure that was a misheard comment. Apart from anything else it would also mean that current Ar technology watches are misrepresented in sales and other literature, which they would not do.
Right. I didn't. That was not the objective of that part of my post. Of course, one can argue, that it should have been. But it wasn't. Anyway, let's not nitpick about that. It's not that important.
Yes, one can use nitrogen. For that matter one can use ordinary atmospheric air as all other watch brands do. As I and others wrote earlier in this thread, I doubt it makes any siginificant difference if the watch is filled with (more or less) inert gasses instead of ordinary air.
Actually I think the Diapal escapement may be more promising with respect to prolonging service intervals, because lubricants which aren't there can't dry out and oxydize. I have no personal experience here, though. I had my 756 Diapal serviced by Sinn after 6 years. Not because it was slowing down or showed decreasing amplitude - it was not - but because the thread in the crown/tube wore out (a common problem with the early 756 watches), and now that they had it taken apart, it might as well get a full service. Especially since Sinns service charges are very reasonable.
Last edited by Leif; 4th June 2014 at 18:56.
I think Sinn may use Nitrogen instead of Argon, for the past few years anyway. Have a look at their literature and there is no more reference to 'Argon' at all. Probably after Ar doubled in price between 2010-2012.
The cost of argon required per watch would still be tiny. I noticed this on their website:-
Seems a devious use of the Ar symbol. Did it ever mean argon?Discreet indication of exclusive, top-line technology: The Ar-symbol on the dial of the 103 Ti DIAPAL refers to Ar-Dehumidifying Technology.
You're right...there's no mention of 'Argon' in the 2014 / 2015 catalogue - both German and English versions.
Yes it did. Argon is mentioned by name in their 2002 / 2003 German katalog. It says the case "is filled with Argon gas" (Innere des Gehäuse mit dem Edelgas Argon gefüllt).
Yep. I can second this. Sinn's service costs, turn-around times, and general customer service is actually very reasonable, in particular if you compare it to the recent sky-rocketing service costs for all the major luxury brands. Leaving aside the utility of the de-humidifying capsule (I've had six or seven Sinn watches with this feature, and I'm indifferent to it... I still like the watches, the capsule just doesn't even play a role for me) gouging on service costs is the new game in town... but I don't think that accusation can be levelled at Sinn, currently.
In terms of over-hyped features on watches... isn't that what its all about? We all just choose our poison (Rolex, Sinn, IWC, what have you) and adopt that (marketing) world view as our set of universal truths... ;-)
-flugzeit
I'm not sure what to make of this. They have specifically mentioned argon gas in the past. Now they refer to "inert gas" (Schutzgas) but at the end of the day argon gas is simply one kind of inert gas.
The question I always ask myself is, on my 900 flieger, for example, is... "is there anything in there, at all?"
-flugzeit
Interesting that they have withdrawn the references to Argon.
In 2009, when I got my EZM1, I got an estimate for servicing. the reply, direct from Sinn, includes this
The standard cost for servicing model EZM1 is 170,- Euro for the movement overhaul, 140,- Euro for the gasket set and exchange control elements. 55,- Euro for the new argon gas filling and exchange try capsule. Plus packing and shipping costs from 50,- Euro to UK. Approximate time for this service is 40 working days after placing your order.
Direct quote. So in 2009, Argon was definitely still in use. Note the "dry" - "try" typo, definitely typed not pasted.
Dave
ps - don't you just love 2009 prices.........
Seems like another world, Dave.
Remind me... you got rid of the EZM1, didn't you? I have to say its one of the very few (!) watches which have eluded me... :(
That it does Coady
No - never will. I still have it.
Mine is one of the very last (serial over 3000) before the later LE. Sold in 2006. It is an Ar dial, and I have the bracelet with SELs, and 2 of the EZM1 LE rubber straps, one cut to size, one still whole.
I would never be able to find such a complete set again, so no point in selling - I think it's great.
If there had to be only one watch in the collection, it would be the EZM1 or the Tutima ZUZ, can't decide which, and I am glad I don't have to. It stays here.
D
Yep... I thought it was just a figment of my imagination! :)
Anyway, it's great that you enjoy it so much. That's how it should be...
Cheers, mate.
2 Years ago i was in Sinn, and i had the privilege to get a individual factory tour. I was shown everything, including a "EZM" room where they do all the testing, freezing and filling the cases with inert gases. When i was there, i asked about argon and one of the master watchmakers stated that they swiched to helium. Argon was becoming too expensive and you get same results with helium.
Well... that clears things up a bit. Thanks for the update! :)
-flugzeit
Helium is more expensive than argon (as well as already mentioned, being more permeable) so an odd decision.
Well maybe the price of helium was lower two years ago. Don't know, it's not my field. Just sayin what watchmaker told me that day
That was my thought also. It seems more likely/credible that they're now using something like nitrogen, as someone here has already suggested (and I'm not doubting 'Nono', above).
I reckon we should start a petition to have Sinn use coloured gas... so then at least I know there's something in there...
-flugzeit
Like (most) others, I too doubt the Helium. I don't doubt Nono, I completely believe that's what he was told. I just think the watchmaker was wrong. It is expensive and a nightmare to seal in because it is the second smallest atom and sneaks through anything, which is why Comex invented the Helium release valve, to let the stuff out of a watch, once it had crept in.
So I have once more asked for a service price from Sinn (also asking what gas they use) and I will hope to get us an answer direct from the horse's mouth.
D
And yet there are watches 75 years old that still work . Many drivers prefer skinny tyred 1 litre fiats to Ferraris, simply more fun everyday . This technology is clearly designed to imbue a certain good feeling factor in the wearer and if it works it's not marketing bollocks at all, it's palpable and real and consumers will pay for it.
Marketing is a mix of all sorts of things and Sinn are no different to anyone else in utilising it. At least this seems to have a meaning scientifically and possibly practically.
Sinn's whole orientation is technically advanced tool watches for specific professional fields. Is that a marketing orientation? Absolutely, but its also their road map for the business. It therefore makes sense to add features like the de-humidifying capsule rather than decorating the movement or adding a gold rotar. So these sorts of technologies make sense for Sinn even if the measurable technical value added is small.
-flugzeit
Well said, I agree
I too agree. That's the target of most Sinn watches.
However, I will venture to say that in practice the majority of Sinn tool watches are bought by wannabe "desk action men" (like myself). In real life, the most used watches for hard wearing purposes are likely G-shocks. They are very accurate, can do an awful lot of things, are tough, and if something happens to them, they are so cheap that one can just get a new one without any worries about the cost. Many armies use them these days. I love good mechanical watches and wear the ones I own happily, but when working in the garden, fixing my car etc., there's a G-schock on my wrist. Apart from the visual design and the diapal escapement, what sets my 756 Diapal apart from other chronographs for me, is the extra hour hand which I find more convenient than a traditional GMT hand for travel use. But then again, a G-shock can do that plus a good deal more for a tiny fraction of the cost of a Sinn. ;-)
Last edited by Leif; 6th June 2014 at 12:50.
You're absolutely correct, of course! But don't say this too loudly or you'll explode the little WIS bubble we are all living in... ;-)
I'll come clean... I love my Sinn 900 Flieger (and a bunch of watches like it in my collection), but when it comes to a practical hard wearing functional tool watch my Citizen Skyhawk Atomic is hard to beat. Its robust, accurate, solar powered, atomic signal syncing, has a zillion functions, tough as nails and its cheap.
OK... enough of all this honesty, now.
-flugzeit
So I happened to drop into the Sinn Factory this morning and took the opportunity to ask them about the argon gas issue. The person I spoke to confirmed that they no longer use argon gas but are now using nitrogen ('Stickstoff' in German) and the emphasis in their communications has moved from 'argon' to 'inert gas' ('Schutzgas' in German). Apparently they have been fining tuning the technology for some time which I took to mean that they may have used other inert gases in the past.
The reason for the change is, I was told, due to servicing. It was previously difficult for Sinn's sales and service partners to deal with the argon gas: the equipment they needed was expensive and the gas was more difficult to source and handle, and argon gas may also have been expensive relative to the alternatives. The shift to nitrogen means that their service partners can work with a gas that is easily available and easy to handle, and in addition Sinn have developed a more portable and less expensive machine to allow for servicing the gas filled watch models. So the move to nitrogen came out of this process of developing a better servicing capacity for their partners.
Its always great to visit the Sinn factory and I recommend it to anyone that gets the chance. Its well worth a look.
I was surprised, when I asked which models are the most popular today, to hear they are:
- 103 Sa
- U1 SDR
- and the Finanzplatz watches
It was also nice to see quite a few ordinary people in there looking to pick themselves up a decent watch. OK, Sinn has a strong client base in the region, but I can't help thinking that despite price rises quite a few of their watches remain pretty good value compared with the sky-rocketing prices of the popular luxury brands (and that's leaving aside the hidden price increases behind certain strategic moves regarding parts and servicing in the luxury watch industry).
-flugzeit
Tnx Flugzeint for the info. So it seems Sinn had experimented with other iners gases in the past, at witch point they did use helium for a short period of time (back in 2012). And it makes sence to help their service partners with lower costs and availability of needed equipment.
Many thanks, flugzeit. It's good to have the correct info direct from Frankfurt am Main.
Yes, thanks flugzeit for the info.
It's rather misleading for Sinn to keep using the Ar logo. Although they state it means something else it is still widely believed by buyers/owners to mean argon.
Sellers also do nothing to dispel the myth and continue to quote the use of argon (Chronomaster for example) - I'd imagine Sinn are very happy to let this continue.
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