Reply With QuoteWell: nothing wrong with it as long as you don't try to sell it as the real thing.
I recently picked up a very nice condition Tudor Oysterdate case (72033) with the intention of rebuilding it and flipping it towards something nicer.
Now I've got it, I'm wondering just how far I should go in keeping it pure Tudor. My plan was to put an original Tudor dial in, ideally original hands, an aftermarket strap with a Tudor clasp and a "suitable" movement.
Finding an original Tudor movement looks like it will be more hassle and money than it's worth. If it was simply for me to wear I'd look for a beaten-up Tudor, salvage the movement and any other parts such as the dial, and sell on the remaining parts, but the net cost could still be in the £300-400 area and that would leave me with little or no profit from the project.
Finding an ETA 2824-2 in good condition is much easier, but will still cost in excess of £100 and could be quite a bit higher. I know I could buy an ETA and put a Tudor rotor on it and most people wouldn't be any the wiser, but I don't like to do things like that.
The alternative is to pick up one of the Seagull ETA clones for somewhere in the region of £50-70. All the reviews I've read on them rate them highly and the visual finish looks very good and would suit the Tudor if someone wanted to show off the movement.
Next comes the issue of the dial and hands. Finding a suitable Tudor dial seems a lot harder than I'd anticipated, as there isn't the market for parts that there is for Rolex. Looking around I can pick up a refinished Rolex dial for a lot less than an equivalent Tudor one
What are people's opinions of putting together a watch with a Tudor case and crown, Rolex dial, ETA or Seagull movement and aftermarket hands and then selling it on (fully and accurately described of course). I can see some people being sniffy about it, but then there are loads of people out there who don't think twice about dropping £300+ on a Rolex replica and this would at least be built around a genuine Rolex/Tudor base at a similar cost?
Well: nothing wrong with it as long as you don't try to sell it as the real thing.
We have this debate weekly.
It never ends well, but you'll have some agree it's ok, but they are usually busy, where they're more welcome, on the fake forums, so be patient.
I don't see a problem as long as you're up front about it.
It's up to the prospective buyer to decide whether or not they're happy to purchase it.
Ethical or not, I've a feeling it would be illegal. A replica watch built from 100% OEM parts is still a replica. Unless your name is 'Bill Rolex', you can't make and sell watches that bear the Rolex name.
If you buy a chinese movement, there will be loads of dials available.
You don't need a rolex dial.
I suggest you buy a complete watch and recase it with a Parnis or a sterile dial and movement.
http://manbushijie.com/productshow-431-6.html
That way it will be a posh Parnis - instead of a bogus Tudor, or worse still a bogus Rolex.
As long as you inform all potential buyers the originbs of the watch, which parts are what, and the fact that it did not com from any factory like it is, no problem.
Oh, and if your name is "Bill Rolex" you still CANNOT sell watch that bear the Rolex name. The word "Rolex" in the context of watches and jewelry and all thing associated with watches and jewelry is reserved for the use by Rolex Société Anonyme. Marking watches, jewelry, and that sort of stuff with the word "Rolex" is an invitation for a lawsuit.
Last edited by lysanderxiii; 25th July 2014 at 12:10.
What fresh hell is this........again!
If you keep it, it's a franken, but once you sell it, you have no idea what any of the subsequent owners intentions will be, so you've just introduced a very good fake into the market.
What is your motivation OP, if its a project for your own pleasure then knock yourself out, but then to consider selling it, hmmmmmm don't know where you're going with that.Originally Posted by rockinrobin
I recently picked up a very nice condition Tudor Oysterdate case (72033) with the intention of rebuilding it and flipping it towards something nicer.
Now I've got it, I'm wondering just how far I should go in keeping it pure Tudor. My plan was to put an original Tudor dial in, ideally original hands, an aftermarket strap with a Tudor clasp and a "suitable" movement.
Finding an original Tudor movement looks like it will be more hassle and money than it's worth. If it was simply for me to wear I'd look for a beaten-up Tudor, salvage the movement and any other parts such as the dial, and sell on the remaining parts, but the net cost could still be in the £300-400 area and that would leave me with little or no profit from the project.
Finding an ETA 2824-2 in good condition is much easier, but will still cost in excess of £100 and could be quite a bit higher. I know I could buy an ETA and put a Tudor rotor on it and most people wouldn't be any the wiser, but I don't like to do things like that.
The alternative is to pick up one of the Seagull ETA clones for somewhere in the region of £50-70. All the reviews I've read on them rate them highly and the visual finish looks very good and would suit the Tudor if someone wanted to show off the movement.
Next comes the issue of the dial and hands. Finding a suitable Tudor dial seems a lot harder than I'd anticipated, as there isn't the market for parts that there is for Rolex. Looking around I can pick up a refinished Rolex dial for a lot less than an equivalent Tudor one
What are people's opinions of putting together a watch with a Tudor case and crown, Rolex dial, ETA or Seagull movement and aftermarket hands and then selling it on (fully and accurately described of course). I can see some people being sniffy about it, but then there are loads of people out there who don't think twice about dropping £300+ on a Rolex replica and this would at least be built around a genuine Rolex/Tudor base at a similar cost?
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Well, to be honest, it sounds like a complete pile of crap. In the same way that I wouldn't build a 'Mercedes' motorcar with a Toyota engine, Nissan doors shrunk to fit and VW wheel covers.
As mentioned by others, you're also introducing some horrible hybrid into circulation. It's not even a 'replica' (which would be bad enough) because it's made up of all sorts of random stuff cobbled together. Only a clueless idiot would spend money on that - that might sound harsh but that's my opinion.
Personal project - perhaps..selling it - ethically and for the good of the watches in circulation, I wouldn't do it.
Can't help thinking the fact you ask means you already know it's perhaps a bit dodge and are hoping for some validation from others.
Its the Rolex dial that's the issue here for me, as that would turn it from a mish-mash of parts into a fake Rolex
Even if I was doing such a thing for my own use I wouldn't put a dial on that wasn't right.
Please, do me and a whole lot of other people a big favor, including the idiot who will buy that creation somewhere down the line as a genuine, and sell off the case and make your profit there. Don't build a watch like that, ever.
I think, from reading people's input, that the big issue here isn't what the person who buys it from me may think it's what they may do with it later.
That's not something that I'd considered, as I just saw it as being me selling a project watch and (as long as I'm honest in my description) there's no harm in doing that.
I'm glad for the input as I don't want to be responsible (at least in part) for someone passing it off as something it isn't somewhere down the line.
I think I'll try to source all original Tudor parts and hope to find a Tudor movement. At least that way I can honestly say it's made from original and not replica/fake/aftermarket parts. Even if I manage to find a Tudor movement I was never planning on selling it without saying it's a rebuild as I'd be asking for trouble due to serial number mismatches.
As far as the movement goes, if I have to I'll use a non-Tudor but it will be as a last resort and may well change how I advertise it. It might even prompt me to put a non-Tudor branded dial on to be on the safe side. If I could get one of those Black Bay homage dials made by Dagaz in a size to fit it, then I wouldn't even have thought anything else to begin with!
Cheers for the advice guys!
As I understand it, it is a problem. Selling a replica, even one advertised as a replica, is illegal. Even if it's a hybrid, and not a replica of any particular watch, and you tell the buyer explicitly that it's fake, you're still breaching Rolex copyright. (As you point out, even being called 'Bill Rolex' is not a defence. I wasn't seriously suggesting it was.)
Take the Rolex name off the dial and you can do whatever you like - legally, if not ethically.
Build it and enjoy it but don't sell it. Either keep it or throw it away when you are done, this should not be introduced into the market with a Rolex dial on it in my opinion.
Not an issue with me so long as full disclosure is made to the buyer.
Chye
This has got to be one of the strangest threads ever. Ignoring any "Ethical". Issues about building it who in their right mind would buy it?
I thought most people on here say it is the watch and its attributes they are buying and not the 'name' or brand.
If you want to construct a watch from various available parts, to get the look and attributes you really like, then do so, it is not illegal and you will get the watch just as you want it. Just be honest in your description on any sale.
Nothing magical about the Rolex name. If I put OZ wheels on a Merc it doesn't mean I have turned the Merc into an illegal motor and I can quite happily sell it on as long as I state it is wearing OZ wheels. If I put a Mazda wankel engine in an NSU RO80 nothing illegal about doing it or selling it as long as it is described properly.
Don't get why people are precious about these things, unless it is all about the brand.
Mitch
What if you put copies of AMG wheels on it? You're upfront with the guy who buys it that they are replicas, he isn't though when he sells it as a car with genuine AMG wheels and makes more money.
Not your problem of course... but sadly some poor schmuck now has a car with shonky wheels.
Say you ran your own business - you put a lot of hard work, attention to detail and quality into building the product and proudly put 'Mitch' on it.
Then some bozo comes along and sticks some cheapo part or extra on it which made it look worse or at least took away from the product you had so lovingly and painstakingly created.
Would you be happy with that?
Spot on
What exactly do you mean by "replica" in this context?
Selling a fake (i.e. a counterfeit, something that is falsely claimed to be the product of a certain brand) is illegal but that is not the case here. No such claim is being made.
If the watch is a hybrid, and described as such, then it is not a fake or counterfeit. If it is described as a hybrid of genuine parts then no false claim is being made and surely no infringement of intellectual property is being made.
Copyright is not a relevant issue. What may be relevant, depending on the full context, are patents, trademarks, or registered designs. As long as the watch is not described as a Rolex product, when it is clearly not, then there is probably (as far as I can see), no infringement of any of these aspects of Rolex's intellectual property rights.
But if the dial is a genuine Rolex dial then there is no reason to remove the name. If the watch as a whole is not claimed to be a Rolex product then what is the legal problem? No infringement of intellectual property rights is occurring if no false claims are made for the watch (i.e. if the watch is described as what it is, a collection of parts, where all parts are legitimately made by the brands claimed).
Wouldn't bother me. I don't think car manufacturers are bothered when people fit different, exhausts, stereos, wheels, or fit performance improving tuning parts etc etc to 'their' cars.
Why should watch manufacturers be treated differently?
Mitch
No I guessed as much.
I suspect it would bother the guy who thought he was buying the real thing, who gets screwed over down the line, but not your concern.
It's going to be sold as a genuine Rolex at some point; if not by this guy then the next one who buys it from him seeing a VERY easy profit.
I have a problem with that, putting aside semantics, surely you must as well?
I do have a problem with that: It would be fraudulent. But to be clear I have a problem with the fraudster who commits that crime. The present builder is not a fraudster and is innocent of any crime.
In summary, I do not blame one wholly innocent person for another, entirely independent, person's crimes, just as I do not blame the gun maker for the crime committed by someone else who uses the gun to kill someone or the car maker for the crime committed by someone else who uses the car to run over a pedestrian.
Last edited by markrlondon; 25th July 2014 at 16:47. Reason: Improved text
Are you sure about this? In a recent discussion about trade marks with a German manufacturer, he said nobody can stop you trading under your real name in Germany. Harrods store tried to stop a contract catering company just down the road from me using the name "Harrods" but they failed because Harrods is the family name.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
You accusing the OP of planning a deception?
He is not responsible for any other persons actions. Ludicrous to say he should not do something entirely ethical and legal because someone else might commit a crime.
Do you think people should not use other parts on their cars in case someone they sell it to might try and pass the car off as wholly standard down the line?
Has every car you owned been entirely standard throughout its whole life with you? No pattern parts at all including the exhaust?
Mitch
I have a few Rolex frankenwatches build with original Rolex parts. I love to mod
my watches but I will never sell a not correct Rolex. The problem is if you sell a
frankenwatch and you tell the buyer what is not correct with it then he sell it and
don't tell the real story. After some time it will be at the market as a original watch.
Si my opinion is: Do what you like with your watch but don't put it on the market.
I agree with Jocke. When I first got interested in watches it was far more common than now for watch nuts to build watches from parts - mind you there were far fewer of us back then and selling frankens would seriously impart your credibility and was to be avoided. However spotting frankens was essential when buying face to face at the markets/fairs.
Gray
I don't believe that's the case (though I could be wrong). If I sell a watch that is not made by Rolex but it says ROLEX on it, that is an infringement of Rolex's registered trademark. Whether or not I advertise it as a genuine Rolex is irrelevant. Even if I say right out it's a fake, that's no defence under the Trade Marks Act. I seem to recall that this has in fact happened in the past.
Again, I don't believe that's the case. It's the Rolex trademark which is at issue, not the design or the parts or even the fact that it's a watch. You're not allowed to sell 'Rolex' branded baseball caps or clothes either, for example.
Quite right, my mistake. It is the trademarks law which applies.
There is, in theory, a legal grey area here. Clearly if I buy a Rolex, replace the bezel with another genuine Rolex bezel, and sell it, that's fine. If I replace every part with equivalent OEM parts, I still have a genuine Rolex (in the sense that Trigger still has the same broom).
However, if I assemble a watch out of Rolex parts which were never intended by the manufacturer to go together, and it has the Rolex registered mark on it, I think the law would consider that a replica. Fine for your own personal use, but try to sell it and you could be in trouble.
(If in doubt, I would simply call up Rolex head office and ask them if they're OK with the idea. I think it's unlikely that they would be!)
If anyone still wonders about the real intentions of the OP, I suggest you read his first post slowly and aloud. Especially this part:
I'm not now going to be doing this, but hypothetically speaking I can't see that this is correct.
I saw a watch recently that had been worn by someone who had come off their motorbike. It looked like it had been attacked with an angle grinder. If I'd bought that and taken it to an AD, they would have changed the vast majority of parts. Does that mean it becomes a replica? Is it OK for an AD to do it, but not an individual?
I can't see any realistic legal, or ethical, issues with selling a watch that is made from 100% genuine parts, as long as it's sold as such. If I bought an old Sierra and covered it in genuine factory Cosworth parts, changed the engine etc, then it would be a replica Cosworth, it would not be a replica Ford Sierra and I could still legally sell it as such. After market or non-original parts would be a different matter completely.
BUT, I'm already decided that I won't be doing this because of the risk of someone else buying it later in the belief it was factory original. I totally subscribe to the you can't blame the car manufacturer for the drunk driver theory, but (while I'm quite happy shooting as a sport myself) I do believe there's an element of blame to be laid at the door of gun manufacturers. I don't agree with replicas, so putting something out there that could be sold very easily as factory original isn't something I'm willing to do.
On a different, but related, note. Does anyone know if it's possible to get a 26mm diameter version of the Black Bay homage dial, or know someone who could make one?
I wouldn`t do it, and I wouldn`t build one for someone else. It's all well and good being honest and upfront when you sell it, but subsequent owners won`t be honest, and somewhere along the line someone will buy it as the genuine item.
I`d forget this idea, don`t do it.
Paul
I don't think that is the case, as long as you do not purport that the complete watch is a Rolex product. As long as the dial is genuine Rolex dial then I just don't see a problem: Nothing is being misrepresented.
But why would you? It is fundamentally not a fake. It is a watch with genuine Rolex parts. Nothing whatsoever is being faked. There is no counterfeiting occurring.
I agree: Selling genuine Rolex parts as genuine Rolex parts is not abuse or misuse of their trademark.
I agree, because those would be purporting to be a product of Rolex when they are not. In comparison, a watch with Rolex on the dial (because the dial is a genuine Rolex part) is not purporting to be anything it is not: It is not a fake and not a counterfeit. It is purporting to be exactly what it is and is thus not misusing a Rolex trademark. The trademark is being correctly applied!
I don't see why. It is fundamentally not a "replica" of anything. It is not a fake of anything. It is not a counterfeit of anything. It is a watch made of completely genuine parts.
I see no reason why, as long as you do not purport that it is something it is not. I can see no reason why there would be any abuse of trademark here. The correct trademark is being shown on genuine parts, exactly where Rolex put it.
Of course they wouldn't like it but so what? Their opinion has neither moral nor legal force.
In short, I can see no abuse or misuse of Rolex's trademark in the scenario under discussion. It all seems perfectly proper and legitimate to me, as long as the complete product is not described as a Rolex product. Having Rolex on the dial does not describe anything other than the dial as a Rolex product, which is indeed the case in this scenario.
Yes, I did say this:
I was quite clear in my original post that this is a project for me to make a bit of money. I'm not going to apologise for that and I see no reason why I should.
But in the same post I also said this:
And this:
I suggest you read my first post slowly and aloud. Not just the part that fits your opinion, but all of it.
Please don't accuse me of planning to carry out some scam or con, I've been VERY clear that I don't intend to do this and I take SERIOUS offense at having this suggested!
Look, why all the deep question and answer sessions?
There are forums to chat about you fakes, frankens, mods and other home made tat.
Go join them.
Perhaps you should have been clear that you only wanted answers that agreed with you in your original post? You must be seriously offended to use capitals, wowsers.
Someone, somewhere will buy a 'fake' Rolex or Tudor as a 100% genuine article because you've made one to look that way to turn a profit.
Seems plenty on here are fine with that, I bet they wouldn't be if they got ripped off buying it as genuine and original down the line.
If we're using irrelevant similes; what about the gunmaker who reactivates a deactivated gun? He's not going to pull the trigger but he damned well knows what that gun will be used for.
The OP cannot be so naive to assume his creation will not be passed on as original down the line. He doesn't care if he can make a few quid.
Are capable of reading English? Or, perhaps just too bloody lazy to read every post?
Do people who modify their cars have any right to discuss them on that manufacturers forum or do they have to join a forum that discusses fakes and 'home mad tat'?
Or do you apply different standards to car manufacturers and buyers of their products as compared to watch manufacturers and their buyers?
Or with watches do you mainly buy for the 'name' rather than the product? I thought most people on here denied that they do this.
It's like you are uttering the name 'Rolex' with some sort of reverence normally applied to deities out there. You cannot take their name in vain, you cannot alter or amend anything, it is perfection itself not to be messed with by mere mortals err........customers.
Its a bloody watch for goodness sake, if you want to alter it, to more like your taste, do so and don't give it a second thought just as you would with other possessions of yours like cars.
Mitch
What have cars got to do with anything?
Fake lovers come along and talk complete and utter tripe all the time.
It's booooooooooring.
They use crap comparisons, they backtrack, they justify by calling us brand buyers.
We're not interested what the OP, or his supporters, does with his box of crap.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Why don't you answer the points, rather than just posting some bluster.
Do you think watch manufacturers and their products should be treated differently to manufacturers of other products?
Mitch
Last edited by Mitch; 25th July 2014 at 18:52.
Why are we discussing cars?
Why are we discussing fakes?
I am discussing the OP, which asked whether it was legal and ethical to modify something he had bought with other legally made parts.
I say it is and use the example of cars because most people have them and most will have modified it at some point with non original parts and will have subsequently sold it on.
You are just making assertions not backed up by anything as you have done so in the past on here.
You seem very precious about the Rolex name to say you are not a brand buyer but an alleged watch buyer.
Rolex
Oops it looks like I have called myself 'Rolex' illegitimately, send for the Police!
Mitch
You out trivialise the issue, as many fake supporters do.
I don't have to back anything up. fakes are black and White.there is no middle ground. If you consider differently, you're wrong.
I am a brand buyer. I didn't say I wasn't. I simply said fake fans use it as a counter argument.
Don't be bitter.
We do the best to get you pissed.
You must be joking. I am SERIOUSLY amused.
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