Gaggia vs Rancilio vs Pavoni vs Ascaso vs Marcfi

[Huertecilla]

I am looking to replace my very old coffee machine.

The successor of the Gaggia Classic (Gaggia RI9403/11) is heading the short list.
It seems a very good, proven practical product for the money.

The other contestors that get good reviews are the DeLonghi EC 680.M because it is small and the Ariete 1387 Novecento because it looks great.


On the side is the Rancilio Silvia. I could stretch the budget but it is all about priorities; do I ´need´to?
It is better made. Period.
The price however is twíce as high.
Is it thát much better?
Does the higher quality make sense for daily use in the kítchen?
What does it mean for the cuppa? After all I just want a good cuppa, not a life style.

Thanks for any shared experiences.

[dice]

Consider it the same as watches - there are £100 ones that will do exactly the same job. Hell, you can even go £10 and have an even more robust piece. Its about functionality to a point, after that point you're talking long term-ness and enthusiasm.

The Delonghi you're looking at is the standard Delonghi thermoblock system in all its other Icona etc machines. Its smaller footprint is nice and its well made, but its low weight causes it to annoyingly move around when you're trying to attach/detach the brewing handle.

The Silvia is not quite industrial, despite its heritage, but it'll easily see heavy domestic duty. You'll appreciate a few things like the 58mm basket and a proper steam wand, as opposed to the plastic tripe used on every other one.

Ranking them, its Rancilio > Delonghi > Gaggia. I can't make the choice for you, but I will absolutely say avoid Gaggia like the plague. This is coming from years of experience from a heavy consumer, supplier, and servicer perspective.

[Huertecilla]

Thank you.

The thermoblock is a hugely attractive point.
I have tried the brewing handle / top heavy issue and was not too shocked.

Can´t I swap the steam wand for the Rancilio one? For the Gaggia it is even available modified with the correct fastener!

[Snowdon]

I have a silvia and have given up on it. In a sentence, its failure is the fact it has one boiling unit. Your coffee comes out at 80 degrees or whatever it is and steam at 100 degrees. This means that the boiler is operating at two temperature points and is almost never at the correct temperature when trying to make espresso. It is easy getting the temp to 100 but to get it to correct espresso brewing temperature is where the silvia fails, IMHO.

i have moved to stove top and cafetiere and am very happy with that. The coffee movement has moved on a lot since 2007 when I bought my silvia and so there are loads of great coffees to try on stovetop and cafetiere.

[Huertecilla]

i have moved to stove top and cafetiere and am very happy with that. The coffee movement has moved on a lot since 2007 when I bought my silvia and so there are loads of great coffees to try on stovetop and cafetiere.

Stove tops!!! Now you have my attention.
I am not looking to buy a product but something to make a good coffee.
The past year my non coffee drinking gf bought a Mokka pot to make me coffeen in the morning and taht was a very positive experience. As such I am quite positive about a modern development. We have a gas stove.
What would you suggest I take a look at?

[rico]

Stove tops!!! Now you have my attention.
I am not looking to buy a product but something to make a good coffee.
The past year my non coffee drinking gf bought a Mokka pot to make me coffeen in the morning and taht was a very positive experience. As such I am quite positive about a modern development. We have a gas stove.
What would you suggest I take a look at?

I make my coffee in a moka pot on a gas hob. Perfect coffee for me.

[kungfugerbil]

Can´t I swap the steam wand for the Rancilio one? For the Gaggia it is even available modified with the correct fastener!

I've done exactly that. Cheap and waaaaay better than the original classic one.

I love my machine, deeply and truly :) Just noticed it needs a clean...



Got my wand here:

http://www.happydonkey.co.uk/hdr0001.html

[Huertecilla]

I make my coffee in a moka pot on a gas hob. Perfect coffee for me.

Good it was, well more like pretty decent and we tried loads of grounds. Not looking for perfect but a bit better than the Moka yes. Lóve the ´atomic´ idea which is a bit of a hybrid. Not sure about vfm though as the Moka is awfully cheap for a very decent cup.
The heat transfer to the coffee level is too large though and I found the coffee tray/separator construction just a bit too basic and thus hassle. Still, I could live with that though the heat transfer is a biggie, but the friction on the seal when screwing it down is the killer for me.

It is that I know nothing between the Moka and the rather over the top expensive Atomic remake and modern upgrade Otto. I think the latter is the dog´s bollocks but importing one makes it prohibitively expensive. I mean; a near perfect espresso in Demonio´s bar is 1 Euro! He fresh grinds top notch beans ánd does the washing up.

Hence looking at something electric pressure cooking...

[VDG]

Save yourself a fortune and go Türk kahvesi route, all you need is water, coffee, fire and coffee pot..



or someone who'll make it for you

[jegger]

what do you drink?

espresso, milk based, or filter type coffee.

If the first 2, I would go Gaggia with the steam wand upgrade.

Filter then you have loads of cheap options, for a single brew you can buy single ceramic drip cones.

[Huertecilla]

or someone who'll make it for you

Thát I have covered.
The issue is they use three different machines. The Moka pot is ok, the classic percolator* needs replacing and the Nespresso thing.... well she will just need to buy something else.
I was thinking of a Moka for the latter and a Gaggia or DeLonghi 680 for the percolator but....



...well, that is just the Grand Seiko of coffee makers.

* she used to have a realy exquisite twin stacked glass bowl percolator on a spirit burner but it got cracked when moving house. That thing was not only decent coffee but the experience of sééíng it brew was a treat, added two extra points out of ten to the coffee itself.

[dice]

If you're not just limited between the machines and are looking for a solid method, that changes things. Also the point about the Silvia made earlier on is negligible, as any sub-£700 coffee machine operates on one "boiler", likelier a thermoblock (which is just a big heatsink that has water pumped along it). If you're committed to a machine and don't want to deal with waiting to steam milk, dual boiler is the way to go. Entry level is KitchenAid tripe, most well-rounded budget machine is the Sage/Breville Dual Boiler at about £1000.

Again, this largely depends on the roast and type of coffee you're making, but aeropress and v60 are both solid non machine methods that yield great results. You can try them in any reputable coffee bar to see for yourself before you commit to the sub-£100 cost. V60 is a bit more faff and method, with aeropress being a good daily method that you can play around with a bit (lots of youtube tutorials on how to do things like inversion, etc).

A "good" machine is expensive, thats just the rule for anything. For a good manual method which gives coffee better than your average method, I'd recommend aeropress.

[Huertecilla]

Thank you for the feedback on double boilers.
Yes, the ´cheaper´ machines are all working on the some principle which in their turn are akin to stove top with an added pressure valve.

The double boilers are a step up. No doubt about it. They also step out of my budget for a good home brew. I have a dozen pretty good professional barristas with top notch machines withn 10 minutes on the bicycle.

Stumble accross the Bellman CX25 which is basically a Moka with pressure valve. Get one with a manometer and you can even regulate the pressure. The difference with the espresso machines is lower pressure and the temperature transfer issue is resolved with a seperate recepticle.
Price with meter is on par with cheaper end espresso machines.

[wicheda]

I went the Rancilio route after getting frustrated with the limitations of a Dualit mid-range machine. Not cheap as you say and I'd allow near enough the same again for a decent grinder (Mazzer / Mahlkonig / other burr grinders).

I love it and have made 1-2 coffees every day on it for 5 years, it still feels rock solid. Even then, the single boiler is a slight pain to make espresso-based milk drinks and temperature control needs a bit of experimentation etc. Honestly it took a few months to get a quality espresso out of it and get the hang of the milk. I understand the skill of a barista now and why good coffee shops charge a bit more.

But, I love it too (as a labour of love) and am very pleased with my output now, even compared to dedicated proper coffee shops I can give most of them a run for their money. I am considering a double boiler at some point, but then you get into silly money. At least the Rancilio paid itself back after a few years in saved coffee shop money.

Anyway, if you want to go down the espresso route, I'd pay as much as you can and go for a Rancilio / grinder. Else I'd consider the Aeropress / cafetiere route. Or finally Pourover coffee is another good alternative. Here's a shot of me enjoying some beans our local coffee shop roasted himself:





Enjoy,

Dan.

[Mabuse]

I also have the Rancilio Silvia and consider it a great machine. I don't think the single boiler is that much of a problem since you can learn to work around it by timing the steps between espresso and steaming. I don't think I would enjoy a cheaper machine than the Silvia for true espresso, at least that goes for the few I've tried. On the other hand I'm sometimes using a much more expensive dual boiler machine and it makes, to me, inferior shots compared to the Silvia (granted, the machine is just one variable in the two setups).

The Aeropress is wonderful and a pretty good solution for the need described in the starting post. You can't get true espresso with the Aeropress but you can get pretty close and make all sorts of brews. One of the things I really like about it is that you can make a decent cup even with mediocre old beans. That's more that you can say about most other coffee brewers and it is damn handy when all you got is half a can of cheap supermarket coffee.

Cheers
Mabuse

[dice]

Can I just say that I absolutely love the fact there is such a coffee following on here. Its one of those things that can be as simple or as complicated as you like, and Dan put it perfectly as "a labour of love".

[kungfugerbil]

If we're doing pictures, this is what I enjoy on a daily morning basis from my Gaggia with Silva wand. I'm not a latte art kinda guy but tend to give it a go every so often to liven up the 9am conference call...

[KurtKlaus]

I make my coffee in a moka pot on a gas hob. Perfect coffee for me.

Amen to that.

[china]

I had a Rancilio Silvia, long ago. I liked for making espresso, but the hated waiting for the steam. At that time there were not that many dual boiler consumer machine, so I ended up with an Isomac Tea which is an E61-group heat exchanger machine. You still need to surf a bit for the right temperature, but what I like is that I can steam the milk while the espresso is brewing.

I have had the Isomac for seven years now and it's still perfect. Despite the high initial price I feel it's been worth it.

I would not go for the thermoblocks.

I also use a moka pot every now and then, but that is not espresso.

[markrlondon]

...well, that is just the Grand Seiko of coffee makers.

<grin>

[Snowdon]

I bought my stove top from waitrose. It is the la cafetiere branded one. I think they're all pretty similar in build but I would suggest you buy the size you need. I subsequently saw them in my beloved tk maxx for £10. I think I paid £26

[Huertecilla]

The p(l)ot thickens.

Some good points made guys and further reading up on them clarifies/prioritises things

One thing is clear: I want latte with the milk steamed so the Moka is out.
The Bellman is a mess and the Otto just over the top money.
Meaning stove tops are out.

The espressing bit seems covered by most machines in a similar way. I know they are not all the same but....
the coffee is just one part of a latte

The steaming/steaming wand seems to make quite a difference. Went to check machines at a local wholesale outlet and I cannot see how from voluminous plastic to tight steel nuzzles can give a comparative result. The Rancilio wand upgrade for the Gaggia underlines this. Shoots the DeLonghi a bit in the foot it seems.
I will need to look a bit more closely into that.

For the moment the Classic´s successor with wand upgrade is maintaining itself at the head of the short list.

[solwisesteve]

For the money it's damn hard to go wrong with the Gaggia Classic. Saying that, I hear that the later 'Philips' model is not as good as the older model before Gaggia got taken over. No direct experience. Both my classics are pre-Philips and are both excellent but all I use them for is a pure espresso. The couple of times I've tried to make something that's needed steamed milk it's been a pain (heating up and cooling down again). If my coffee of choice was with steamed milk then I'm not sure it's the machine I'd go for. A good grinder is essential as well, IMHO.

[kungfugerbil]

^ I have a Classic and honestly don't see it as too much of a pain to let the boiler heat up for steam after pulling the shot - it really doesn't take that long and I use the time to sweep up the grinds and chuck the puck away etc. It can be a pain if you wanted to make multiple drinks one after the other in a linear shot-steam-shot-steam as the boiler does take a while to return back down to optimum espresso temp. If I'm making two drinks I'll pull both shots then steam for two.

[Rodder]

I got the Graef ES86 from John Lewis fro Christmas. I have nothing to compare it to but find it's brilliant.

http://www.johnlewis.com/graef-es86-...kpid=232860324

I was really tempted by the Rancilio but the two year warranty and ease of JL swung it for me.

[Huertecilla]

Hmmm...

Soon as you think you are getting there (Gaggia Classic + mod) a profi barrista turns it upside down. He listens, thinks and .... [img]´Pavoni´[/img] while making a lever action gesture with his arm.
Seems they are big in Italy and over here.

Made in Italy and in this case áctually made, bolted together stainless steel in Italy. Shipped from Italy too.
Not cheap though, but in thís case I can get that the thing will last you a life time. In my case way beyond.

I can have the model I want in house for 400 Euros which is only 100 more than the Gaggia + mod.

Right, first some new seals for the jacuzzi pump.....

[kungfugerbil]

Made in Italy and in this case áctually made, bolted together stainless steel in Italy. Shipped from Italy too.

As far as I'm aware the body is predominantly brass, although nickel/chrome plated.

A friend has one and she loves it. It is stylish as anything and makes very good coffee. It is apparently a pain to fill the boiler each time (no reservoir) and the drip tray is tiny.

Makes a good kitchen talking point though :)

[Huertecilla]

Seals cut to size so back to the coffee....

Things like



push my buttons.

Put is in the shopping basket and the resident female is pushing me to buy it; she sees herself liberated from coffee making

[SIB]

When I first decided i "needed" a coffee machine I hadn't quite prepared myself for the multitude of variations out there! In the end after weeks of research I settled on a Delonghi pump espresso machine with an attachment that automatically adds frothed milk for lattes and cappuccinos. Not a wide range of setting on it but it does the job for me and seems to produce nice coffee....good for a novice like myself

[Huertecilla]

When I first decided i "needed" a coffee machine I hadn't quite prepared myself for the multitude of variations out there!

Especially the technical variations or better put the different versions of the basic principle; from the moka percolating upwards with hardly any pressure, via moderate pressure and hand pressure to 15+ bar. From thermosyphon to double pumps.

In the end after weeks of research I settled on a Delonghi pump espresso machine with an attachment that automatically adds frothed milk for lattes and cappuccinos. Not a wide range of setting on it but it does the job for me and seems to produce nice coffee....good for a novice like myself

A heat source is unavoidable but a pump I would be happy to do without. For the purists this puts the true espresso out of range but that is just semantics/definitions. More important for the cup off coffee, the lower pressure brings more sensitivity to the bean and grind. Never mind the milk and..... WATER!

We need a new, better water filter in the kitchen anyway so this is as good a moment as any to look into thát too now.

[martynw]

What a great thread, as others have said.

I'm a little bit the same with coffee machines as I am with watches - endlessly, restlessly changing and trying different things!

Over the years I've had a Silvia, two La Pavonis, a Dualit thermoblock (£40 from ebay!) and all sorts of stuff. Those listed all made variably nice espressos in my hands (I couldn't get one of the Pavonis to perform for me at all whatever I tried) but they make an unholy mess on the kitchen worktops and burn up lots of precious domestic brownie points.

I've ended up using an Aeropress or a Bialetti stove top moka pot. The Aeropress makes great coffee for one, but in my hands is like a good filter coffee and nothing like espresso. It's also a pita if you need to make more than one coffee. The Bialetti is much more like espresso, but I think it slightly 'burns' the coffee.

The Dualit was perhaps surprisingly one of the best - smallish footprint, quick start up time (no boiler) and I rather regret giving it to my sister.

Let us know what you decide.

Regards,
Martyn.

[Auto]

My set up twin boiler Expobar Brewtus iv.

Stolen pic.

[dice]

Oh, go on then - in temporary situe as worktops are being redone in the kitchen:

[SIB]

A heat source is unavoidable but a pump I would be happy to do without. For the purists this puts the true espresso out of range but that is just semantics/definitions. More important for the cup off coffee, the lower pressure brings more sensitivity to the bean and grind. Never mind the milk and..... WATER!

Handy to know for my next round of decisions when I inevitably decide to upgrade thanks. I'm far from a connoisseur or a purist and only ever drank instant in the house until 2 years ago so this was a major step up for me!!

[kungfugerbil]

Put is in the shopping basket and the resident female is pushing me to buy it; she sees herself liberated from coffee making

If you're getting one get the one with the pressure gauge, much easier to track progress than wait for a neon indicator to maybe light up...

[Huertecilla]

Thanks for all the feed back and experiences guys.

Just back fron the Nespresso machine and the drink from that cannot be called coffee.

Now enjoying the decent cuppa from the ancient percolator I like to replace.

In amoment I will go down to the plaza ... right .... háve gone down to the plaza for a cup fro the profi machine.
Hmm. Three cups by 10.00...
That is not cutting down is it?!

I couldn't get one of the Pavonis to perform for me at all whatever I tried but they make an unholy mess on the kitchen worktops and burn up lots of precious domestic brownie points.

Regards,
Martyn.

Buenas Martyn.
It still is in the basket only so can you please expand on what makes the mess and perhaps on what was thwarting your efforts? It might prevent me from burning money and brownie points!

[Huertecilla]

If you're getting one get the one with the pressure gauge, much easier to track progress than wait for a neon indicator to maybe light up...

Thanks for the advice.
The upgrade is VERY expensive and equally simple to retro fit with a nice one. It is only low pressure anyway so a simple o-ring seals it to perfection. I have not asked them yet but I have little doubt that the German gauge manufacturer will be able to supply one with the correct thread.
IF I decide to push the button on the Pavone it will be the most basic one.

Wanted to push the button while waiting for the resident female but am now waiting for Martyn to lift the veil concerning the mess/challenges. am in no hurry: The Europiccola has been around since 1961 so not likely so sell out any time soon.

[solwisesteve]

Buenas Martyn.
It still is in the basket only so can you please expand on what makes the mess and perhaps on what was thwarting your efforts? It might prevent me from burning money and brownie points!

I've read a few post on coffee geeks and the feeling is the lever machines look very sexy BUT take a bit of learning to get it right. Also there are issues with the head getting too hot due to the proximity of the boiler; just what I've read.

[Huertecilla]

I've read a few post on coffee geeks and the feeling is the lever machines look very sexy BUT take a bit of learning to get it right. Also there are issues with the head getting too hot due to the proximity of the boiler; just what I've read.

The Europiccola was produced by DP for maybe 10 years before the design was sold through the Pavoni firm. No, a 65 year old design might just need to be pensioned off but there also may be something just right to it if....
I just don´t know.

[kungfugerbil]

I just don´t know.

My God man, pull yourself together. I thought you were a chap of action, live for the moment. Be like the Samurai; choose a path and rush headlong into it without a sideways glance :)

Buy a La Pavoni, it sounds like they are reasonably priced over there and if you dont like it you can always sell on at minimal loss.

[Huertecilla]

My God man, pull yourself together. I thought you were a chap of action, live for the moment. Be like the Samurai; choose a path and rush headlong into it without a sideways glance :)

Buy a La Pavoni, it sounds like they are reasonably priced over there and if you dont like it you can always sell on at minimal loss.

I meant that I don´t know about any problems.

The largest Brita water filter has been bought.

Talked to the best local espresso brewer about coffee and grinder. He is happy to pass on fresh Santa Cristina Superior beans per kilo at cost.

These are things I need to sort out regardless of whether I go for a manual lever or electric pump maker.

Sofar I am charmed by the mechanical but not convinced that modern tech has not improved things.

[kungfugerbil]

Sofar I am charmed by the mechanical but not convinced that modern tech has not improved things.

Then get a Gaggia classic with Silva wand upgrade ;)

There are no right or wrong answers. You of all people should know this - the path less trodden is not necessarily the incorrect one and may lead to endless joy filled with lever machines, obscure Russian dive watches and charming company. 'The best' is utterly subjective :)

[Jack83]

Hi there, I've got a Europiccola and you're right in that it does require a 'knack' to get it right... in fact I got some very helpful tips from a fellow Europiccola owner, Nick (aka Triumph Coupe) on how to get the most out of it. Hopefully he'll be along shortly to give you further insights. But basically, I really like the routine of using a mechanical espresso machine, the fact that it is a bit temperamental actually adds to the experience for me. We've got a very good bean to cup machine at work... just press a button and you get reliably good espresso... not much fun though! (dare I make an auto vs battery/quartz watch analogy???).

[Huertecilla]

Hi there, I've got a Europiccola and you're right in that it does require a 'knack' to get it right... in fact I got some very helpful tips from a fellow Europiccola owner, Nick (aka Triumph Coupe) on how to get the most out of it. Hopefully he'll be along shortly to give you further insights. But basically, I really like the routine of using a mechanical espresso machine, the fact that it is a bit temperamental actually adds to the experience for me. We've got a very good bean to cup machine at work... just press a button and you get reliably good espresso... not much fun though!

Thanks.

The hands on I would VERY much appreciate but in the end I want a good cup of coffee.
The enjoyable cup of coffee is the goal. An enjoyable process an extra.

With the Europiccola I do not doubt the added value; it is the basic goal of a good cup of coffee which worries me. I am only barely tolerated in the kitchen to do the dishes and change the bin bags so making a mess/nuisance there is a major NoNo.

The resident female saw me looking at grinders and suddenly became VERY weary about the one armed machine. Now, the current thing is quite messy too so there is a bit of leeway, but if I start using a metre of kitchen surface for every cup I am OUT.

dare I make an auto vs battery/quartz watch analogy???.

That would be handwind versus automatic/battery (regardless of oscilator type)

The watch anology is very much to the point. I só much appreciate my vintage handwound watches, but for daily use I wear hassle free quartz ruggedness/accuracy.
If the Europiccola is too much of a hassle it is simply no go and if I go for the easy route, it better provide good coffee easily so the Classic+ is still heading the short list.
The whole list is hanging on the lever of the Europiccola


Right; the jacuzzi.
Turns out that the last leak is not a seal but a cracked joint. Applied pvc glue and when that has hardened I get to reseal the rubbers.
This jacuzzi thing is a pita because it is a modern piece of equipment. A wondrous mix of plastic/nylon/pvc/grp which is designed to become obsolescent. I have managed to keep it going for over 10 years now but there is only so much you can ´repair´ about it.
It brings home the difference between a modern tech consumer coffee maker and a sixties lever machine.

[Jack83]

Thanks.

The hands on I would VERY much appreciate but in the end I want a good cup of coffee.
The enjoyable cup of coffee is the goal. An enjoyable process an extra.

With the Europiccola I do not doubt the added value; it is the basic goal of a good cup of coffee which worries me. I am only barely tolerated in the kitchen to do the dishes and change the bin bags so making a mess/nuisance there is a major NoNo.

The resident female saw me looking at grinders and suddenly became VERY weary about the one armed machine. Now, the current thing is quite messy too so there is a bit of leeway, but if I start using a metre of kitchen surface for every cup I am OUT.




That would be handwind versus automatic/battery (regardless of oscilator type)

The watch anology is very much to the point. I só much appreciate my vintage handwound watches, but for daily use I wear hassle free quartz ruggedness/accuracy.
If the Europiccola is too much of a hassle it is simply no go and if I go for the easy route, it better provide good coffee easily so the Classic+ is still heading the short list.
The whole list is hanging on the lever of the Europiccola


Right; the jacuzzi.
Turns out that the last leak is not a seal but a cracked joint. Applied pvc glue and when that has hardened I get to reseal the rubbers.
This jacuzzi thing is a pita because it is a modern piece of equipment. A wondrous mix of plastic/nylon/pvc/grp which is designed to become obsolescent. I have managed to keep it going for over 10 years now but there is only so much you can ´repair´ about it.
It brings home the difference between a modern tech consumer coffee maker and a sixties lever machine.

I knew I was on shaky ground making a watch analogy!

[Huertecilla]

I knew I was on shaky ground making a watch analogy!

Oh no, it is a pretty good one imo.
However enjoyable the experience, a watch needs to tell time acceptably accurate to be more than an ornament. Same thing the Peacock.

A bit ominous that name actually...
I want a peacock too but no way I get egg laying chicken pen space for that solely ornamental plume bearer.

While at that subject I think it stúpid that Pavoni crowns the posh models with an eagle.
The first ´logo´ was actually twó:




If and when I go for one, I intend to stick a chrome peacock on it somewhere.

[martynw]

Hi Huertecilla,

Sorry for the slow reply. I'm travelling in Southern Spain (your home!) with the family, and distracted from the forum by views like this:



To get back to coffee, what I meant by the mess was simply the inevitable 'spillage' of coffee grounds when grinding, tamping etc. Nothing too serious, but more with any espresso machine (in my hands) than a cafetiere or moka pot.

With the second Europiccola that I owned I really don't know why I couldn't get it to perform. It was secondhand and I really should have arranged a service and replacement of seals etc, but couldn't be bothered, and passed it on. As others have noted, they look lovely and actually take up less space on the worktop than many other espresso machines.

I say go for it. When you get it right with a lever machine it's immensely satisfying. If you're usually making coffee just for yourself or perhaps one other, it'll be fine.

Regarding the grinder, you could always start with a small hand-grinder like the Porlex mini, and really earn your coffee!

Best wishes,
Martyn.

[Huertecilla]

Hi Huertecilla,

Sorry for the slow reply. I'm travelling in Southern Spain (your home!) with the family, and distracted from the forum by views like this:

Wow. You are certainly close and you have picked GREAT weather.

If going from Granada to Malaga you´ll pass us at 3 miles!!

To get back to coffee, what I meant by the mess was simply the inevitable 'spillage' of coffee grounds when grinding, tamping etc. Nothing too serious, but more with any espresso machine (in my hands) than a cafetiere or moka pot.

With the second Europiccola that I owned I really don't know why I couldn't get it to perform. It was secondhand and I really should have arranged a service and replacement of seals etc, but couldn't be bothered, and passed it on. As others have noted, they look lovely and actually take up less space on the worktop than many other espresso machines.

I say go for it. When you get it right with a lever machine it's immensely satisfying. If you're usually making coffee just for yourself or perhaps one other, it'll be fine.

Regarding the grinder, you could always start with a small hand-grinder like the Porlex mini, and really earn your coffee!

Best wishes,
Martyn.

Thanks Martyn.

Was looking at hand grinders. Seems the Hario Ceramic is a neat one.

I have found easy and affordable sources for a gauge and even single hole frother tips.

[VDG]

My God man, pull yourself together. I thought you were a chap of action, live for the moment. Be like the Samurai; choose a path and rush headlong into it without a sideways glance :)

Buy a La Pavoni, it sounds like they are reasonably priced over there and if you dont like it you can always sell on at minimal loss.

Not only that but all the action you'd get :) (just don't forget to change hands

[dice]

Careful - I'd try the grinder first. From what I hear, the hand grinders are temperamental as your motion cannot be consistent and you open up the door to all kinds of issues like heating, oil residue sticking, performance changing by roast, etc. I'd try and sample a hand grinder before buying, but I suppose it isn't the biggest investment to lose out on. Electric really is the only way to go for a grinder.