Carbon and Ceramic watches - Your Comments Please

[Matt1974]

Hi all,

Your collective wisdom would be much appreciated.

I'm considering buying a Bell and Ross black carbon or ceramic watch. I'd be grateful for your comments /experience regarding the upsides and downsides. I understand that ceramic can fail catastrophically if it takes a really hard knock, but how hard does it need to be and is it a common occurance?

Just how resistant to scratches and dinks are these materials? Would they ever need refinishing, can this be done and how expensive is it?

Many thanks in advance.

Matt

[medicat]

Ceramic is really nice. I've had a PAM292 in the past. It feels like a smooth pebble, and has the color of 2B pencil lead. It was tough as nails- I don't handle my watches well and it did not scratch whatsoever. If you want a black watch that won't scratch and show the metal underneath, then this is a good choice.

I think if you were to drop it hard enough to crack the ceramic, you'd be well past the point where a hand might pop off, or the movement might have impact damage. They aren't that fragile. I'll try my best to explain:

Sapphire crystal (Al₂O₃) has a structure similar to that ceramic (which is usually ZrO₂). Since Panerai claims a high pressure, high temperature process, the ceramic is most likely tetragonal in structure as well. Tetragonal structures have 2 planes of fracture at 45 degrees and 135 degrees, and no shearing planes. Sapphire crystal has these properties too, but the bonds between aluminum and oxygen are much stronger. So that's why they are both virtually impossible to scratch, but can crack when you put just the right pressure on them.

TLDR: Sapphire and zirconium are very similar in structure, sapphire is slightly stronger, but if you haven't smashed your sapphire glass you most likely won't smash your ceramic.

[RAJEN]

Someone will be along with a picture of an Omega DSOM fractured at lug.
I personally think the risk of damage from knocks and falls is overestimated.

[walkerwek1958]

The pros and cons of the materials are immaterial.........the fact that they look awful is enough to put me off.

Black watches just don`t look right. Cheap black plastic ones are fine because that's exactly what they are....cheap.....but expensive black watches?.......no way, they just look cheap.

Maybe they're deemed to be fashionable.....so were platform shoes.

What's wrong with steel, titanium, gold?

Paul

[MB2]

I have a ceramic Hublot and it is very scratch resistant. The ceramic they use is Zirconium Oxide which is very durable and rated harder than any other watch making material. The clasp is the really obvious place to see this as it is titanium with a ceramic block inside - the titanium has worn in use but the ceramic is like new. I even tested it by scratching the ceramic part of the clasp with a (brass) key and indeed the "scratches" were in fact brass deposits which were easily rubbed off.

I am considering a carbon fibre watch but I think the durability will be very dependent upon the manufacturing technique used but if a good quality watch then the materials should be good.

[gray]

Carbon and ceramic make a change and I like dark (black) watches. So they get my vote but B&R wouldn't make my short list.

[torromoto]

there isn't a way to refinish any damages. You'd need to replace the whole damaged part wich in most cases would be the whole watch case.

Guillermo

[chris56]

Black ceramic or carbon fibre watches can look great or tacky in much the same way that steel, gold or titanium watches can. It is all about the aesthetics/design of the watch.

In terms of day to day damage you won't get any unless you scratch it with a diamond or drop it from a height onto a tiled/concrete floor. Both are highly unlikely whereas traditional materials Steel, Titanium and Gold will all mark very quickly
Ceramic is hypoallergenic so no wrist rash from nickel impurities like you can get with SS.
Ceramic is generally matt or satin finish so more of a stealth look. In general it will not stand out as much as a highly polished watch.
Carbon fibre is less resistant to scratches/damage and needs to be coated to protect it. The coating will generally scratch.

I would not consider Bell and Ross however, as in general their designs could fall foul of the comment I made in the first sentence.

[astonandy]

I would not consider Bell and Ross however, as in general their designs could fall foul of the comment I made in the first sentence.

I'm with Chris on the whole B&R thing but must say it's from a slightly different perspective. I worked in an office where several of my colleagues were frequent Far-East travellers and to a man they all bought fake B&Rs that to my eye, on the wrist, were indistinguishable from real ones. I can't help associate the two together sadly even though I still have rather a liking for them in a jeweller's window apart from those with questionable face designs that fall firmly into the questionable category at least for me.

[DB9yeti]

Ceramic is hypoallergenic so no wrist rash from nickel impurities like you can get with SS.

Nickel isn't an impurity, it's part of the alloy!

[Matt1974]

Thanks all for your perspectives, experiences and explanations of the science!

Opinions are also welcome - we are all entitled to have one. With such a diverse group of people a consensus is never going to be arrived at - indeed it would be a little dull if were that the case.

Cheers,

Matt

[chris56]

Nickel isn't an impurity, it's part of the alloy!

Apologies for my misuse of the term impurity. As you say nickel is used as one of the ingredients to make stainless steel. Not all stainless steels however are the same and some contain negligible or no nickel. Some stainless steels are also very resistant to leeching the nickel from them. Nickel allergy is quite common and can go beyond just a wrist rash. This is why there is an EU Directive on the amount of nickel that is allowed in jewellery.

[zelig]

Sapphire crystal (Al₂O₃) has a structure similar to that ceramic (which is usually ZrO₂). Since Panerai claims a high pressure, high temperature process, the ceramic is most likely tetragonal in structure as well. Tetragonal structures have 2 planes of fracture at 45 degrees and 135 degrees, and no shearing planes. Sapphire crystal has these properties too, but the bonds between aluminum and oxygen are much stronger. So that's why they are both virtually impossible to scratch, but can crack when you put just the right pressure on them.

Whilst that may be true (& perhaps more relevant) for single crystal materials, many ceramic watch cases are (AFAIK) polycrystalline.

The lack of toughness (in simple terms - the resistance to crack propagation) is usually the biggest drawback of ceramic materials. The key benefit of using stabilised (usually with Yttria Y2O3) ZrO2 is that it is transformation toughened, so unlike other ceramics it will tolerate some damage / small cracks - the tetragonal zirconia undergoes a dilatational phase change under the action of stress (among other triggers). This stress activated dilation acts to close the crack tip & therefore resist crack propagation - which would proceed unhindered in other non-toughened ceramics. Hence, ZrO2 was dubbed ceramic steel when it was first introduced - though in truth the fracture toughness is more akin to cast iron.

Ceramics are generally much harder than metals - and this is the property that is largely responsible for their superior scratch resistance.

z

[PJ S]

The pros and cons of the materials are immaterial.........the fact that they look awful is enough to put me off.

Black watches just don`t look right. Cheap black plastic ones are fine because that's exactly what they are....cheap.....but expensive black watches?.......no way, they just look cheap.

But that's because you're projecting a value based on colour.
In your mind, the colour black is associated with plastic, and plastic watches have always been cheap watches.
Materials technology has come along way since those halcyon days of the early Seikos, Casios, and Timex's.
Thanks to space exploration and top flight motorsport, R&D labs have provided the world with exciting (and sometimes expensive) composites and alloys.

[Belligero]

[...]TLDR: Sapphire and zirconium are very similar in structure, sapphire is slightly stronger, but if you haven't smashed your sapphire glass you most likely won't smash your ceramic.

Regrets; for me, sapphire-like-but-weaker properties aren't particularly confidence-inspiring in this application.

A chipped or shattered crystal isn't that rare of an occurrence. Considering that a watch case has stress risers (i.e. lugs) that a crystal doesn't and is more exposed to knocks, one made out of a sapphire-ish material would cause me worry. And it's an order of magnitude more expensive to replace a case compared to a crystal.

Essentially, ceramic severely compromises a watch's ability to take an impact in exchange for a cosmetic advantage. Considering that it's typically used in oversized watches with a pseudo-military look, this seems a bit silly.

Although it's nice to know that companies are experimenting with alternative materials, I'll put up with the occasional scratch in exchange for the refinishabilty, repairablilty and fracture toughness of steel.

[walkerwek1958]

I don`t doubt the quality or suitability of the materials..........I just don`t like the look of black watches in the same way that I don`t like black alloy wheels on cars. It's purely the aesthetics that I dislike.

I`m 57, I`m old skool, there's no way I`d buy one. However, the scratch resistant properties have some appeal. My wife has 2 ceramic Armanis, a white and a black one, and they look as good as the day they were bought.....her choice not mine.

Is there a risk of a ceramic watch shattering if it's dropped?.........I don`t know. However, unless the laws of physics have altered recently, bulk and weight will increase that risk.

Paul

[Beaunidle]

In my opinion, ceramic yes, carbon no.

Easy!

[Top Cat]

Carbon is a wonderful material for a watch case. It is as hard as steel, light and warm to the touch. I would have it over ceramic any day of the week. However, a carbon case with ceramic bezel, yummy!

[medicat]

Whilst that may be true (& perhaps more relevant) for single crystal materials, many ceramic watch cases are (AFAIK) polycrystalline.

The lack of toughness (in simple terms - the resistance to crack propagation) is usually the biggest drawback of ceramic materials. The key benefit of using stabilised (usually with Yttria Y2O3) ZrO2 is that it is transformation toughened, so unlike other ceramics it will tolerate some damage / small cracks - the tetragonal zirconia undergoes a dilatational phase change under the action of stress (among other triggers). This stress activated dilation acts to close the crack tip & therefore resist crack propagation - which would proceed unhindered in other non-toughened ceramics. Hence, ZrO2 was dubbed ceramic steel when it was first introduced - though in truth the fracture toughness is more akin to cast iron.

Ceramics are generally much harder than metals - and this is the property that is largely responsible for their superior scratch resistance.

z

Thanks for the information.

What do you make of additions of coloring compounds?

[zelig]

Thanks for the information.

What do you make of additions of coloring compounds?

I've no experience of colouring zirconia, other than altering the oxygen potential.
Lowering the oxygen concentration in the atmosphere during sintering gives zirconia a nice greyish/brown colour, which might suit some watches.

z

[craniotes]

I've worn this for years with no undue babying, and it still looks brand new:



(Snow, swimming -- pool and ocean -- and hot tub action pictured...)

This one has also been worn as intended, with zero wear evident:


This one banged a playground jungle gym so hard it took the paint off the metal and left a dent (it was unscathed):


So, yeah, you could say that I'm a fan of the materials in question. Sure, carbon and ceramic have their pros and cons, as do all case materials, but there's nothing inherently flawed about their use in watches. If the aesthetics appeal, then go for it. Sure, you can't hammer nails with 'em, but then I doubt one would do the same with a steel or titanium watch either. ;-)

As an aside, Blancpain tried to address the issue of hardness vs. ductility with their "ceramised titanium" Bathyscaphe -- the hardness of ceramic with the ductility of metal -- but were unable to manufacture the material at a cost that made fiscal sense for them:



Hopefully, they'll revisit this metal in the future.

Regards,
Adam

[thenikjones]

I have worked with ceramics for 20 years. I would love a ceramic cased watch for the pleasure of owning it.

I would not want to wear one for daily use, however.

[Kingstepper]

Carbon is a wonderful material for a watch case. It is as hard as steel, light and warm to the touch. I would have it over ceramic any day of the week. However, a carbon case with ceramic bezel, yummy!

What is this 'carbon' some kind of moulded resin with carbon particles?

[Top Cat]

What is this 'carbon' some kind of moulded resin with carbon particles?

A quote from an article reviewing the watch says "The case is made from forged carbon, basically, forged carbon is shredded carbon fibers that are moulded into a shape, and then compressed under great heat and pressure to create a solid structure. It's very (very) lightweight and hard. It has an almost marble-like surface and the cut and shaped edges are extremely sharp and crisp"

I'm no scientist so to me it is just Carbon!

[craniotes]

A quote from an article reviewing the watch says "The case is made from forged carbon, basically, forged carbon is shredded carbon fibers that are moulded into a shape, and then compressed under great heat and pressure to create a solid structure. It's very (very) lightweight and hard. It has an almost marble-like surface and the cut and shaped edges are extremely sharp and crisp"

I'm no scientist so to me it is just Carbon!

"Forged carbon", the use of which in watch cases was pioneered by AP, has its roots in motorsports, and yes, golf. The material is manufactured by combining carbon fiber with polyamides, the latter of which is essentially plastic, and then superheating/compressing the material in pre-formed molds. While it sounds simple, in practice it is anything but. This process is what gives forged carbon cases their unique combination of looks, light weight and strength. Traditional carbon fiber cases will display a uniform crosshatch patterning.

Here's a great in-depth look at how AP makes their cases:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/12546...-+Carbon+Forge

Regards,
Adam

[deluxetime]

ceramic is really strong, and to really destroy it you need a lot of force. Before that the movement will be more damaged than your case

I have had ceramic watches but sold them because of the black color I prefer steel