Spot on!Originally Posted by Foxy100
Your observation about tires is very much to the point too btw.
ABS, TC, ESP or whatever is all limited to what the surface of the rubber has too offer. Either on dry tarmac or black ice.
X-ply is shocking.
I had them under my LandRover as they are self cleaning because of the distortion. All limits are significantly lowered no matter skill or gizmos.
A last example; Toyota were só on the ball with the standard hard wearing rubber under the GT86.
Poppycock. In even mildly moist conditions even Alonso or Vettel would stop quicker and under greater control with ABS. Cadence braking has been irrefutably shown to take longer to stop under such conditions than ABS.
As I don't live in the mountains of Spain but coastal Yorkshire, mildly moist is something that happens a lot. The roads that is.
It is more fundamental than that, it doesn't matter if you have 62 wheel drive with the best tyres money can buy, the second you take your foot off of the throttle you have no wheel drive and no electronic driver aids ( except ABS) drivers need to be taught not to react, in most cases the car will sort itself out.
How respectfull Sir.
I bet they would not.In even mildly moist conditions even Alonso or Vettel would stop quicker and under greater control with ABS.
Anyway, the problem with the gizmos is that they give no feedback. It goes ok till it goes wrong and than it all way beyond any skill level.
I remain that for safety we need more skill on the road and less speed, not more gizmos allowing average drivers to go faster ´safer´. Between brackets because Ekin.= mv2.
Oh and by all means go sideways when skill and circumstances permit that with margins for the unexpected.
Also; with lower speeds the roads can contain/flow more vehicles and we all know that going sideways is slower
..and I bet a shiny Euro that they would. Remember I predicated it by saying it was on a slippery surface. I'm sure you recall when ABS was banned from Formula One - the complaint in testing was that the driver would approach a corner and simply apply maximum pressure, leaving the very clever computers to modulate the braking pressure applied. The sensors would detect when even a fraction of a degree of slip was occurring, release braking pressure and continue, hundreds or thousands of times a second.
There is no human who can do the same, in the same way as there is no-one who can change gears as quickly as a decent gearbox. Threshold braking is fine and dandy in predictable conditions, not so in a downpour.
I'm really not making it up...
Last edited by kungfugerbil; 9th June 2015 at 16:03.
The big problem with driver aids is that people think and often drive with the faith that they will sort absolutely anything out. The clue with traction control is in the name. If there is no traction, it can not be controlled.
Trouble is, most of us have never taken any extra driving tuition since we passed our test in a Vauxhall Viva (horizontal speedometer ! lol)
There's lots of courses out there, IAM, ROSPA and other private organisations... lots of it isn't actually physical steering/pedals/gears etc, but the mental aspects of driving - anticipation what other are doing etc.. and what they are likely to do, like a game of chess..
There's lots of good educational videos on youtube about advanced driving, like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1b5vFioO3Q
Am i a good driver...there's always room for improvement and i never stop learning
OP, stick some skinny crossplys on your rear wheel drive car and you'll be just fine. You'll soon get the hang of it ;)
..... Nope
Apparently I'm a terrible driver but an excellent ride.
Edit: Someone shoot me.
Last edited by forpetesake; 10th June 2015 at 11:41.
I drive in and around London and have no idea what all this understeer and oversteer refers to. Make a mistake trying to drive in a 'sporty' manner and you'll run out of room and hit another road user - all this talk of 'toys' - in the wrong hands somebody can quite easily get killed or seriously injured! - sorry if that sounds a little but preachy, but it happens to be true.
All is relative.
All you need is an empty tight wet roundabout.
In the small hours of the night there are plenty of empty around London too.
As was observed it, the roads are often enough wet/damp.
There; you can drift at cyclist pace around London without bothering the vicar.
Plenty of speed cameras and police cars too!
You don´t get it do you?!
Please read ´CYCLIST PACE´.
Ditto ´EMPTY´.
This means that you will be well within any speed limit and there will be no car thus no police car within sight.
Should the need arise anyway, you floor the clutch and you look like the vicar pottering about.
Ah well, for whom there is no will there is no way. Fair enough. Does not mean it can´t be done around London safely, without being a nuisance or getting nicked if you dó want to.
Oh and btw, if you want to, can and do, this means you have the skill and fun, but not necessarily that you are a good driver ;-)
Last edited by Huertecilla; 10th June 2015 at 17:22.
I get it. You're an idiot if you think that's a sensible thing to do. Why not come to London and see how long you keep your licence?
What about being a good reader?
Who mentioned sensible in this thread?
If we go thátaway we stop at Smart cars for urbanised areas, nothing will be able to go faster than the 80 mph. and half of the current drivers not permitted to drive at all.
As to the law... Well we all know thát is of questionable ethics and not about sensible either.
Lighten up and have fun living dude!
If it would not be off topic I would explain to you how you can jump safely and without getting nicked in underground parking garages :-)
No that is not ´sensible´ either but there is a LOT of sense in having fun ;-)
p.s. here is something for on the parcel shelf in your car:
Do make sure you secure it properly :-)
Personally prefer a motorbike for London commutes, so nowhere to put the dog ;-)
Me on the 125 with mamá Frenchie going to the post office:
I'm sure Spanish traffic law stipulates that the bulldog should be wearing a helmet.
Just come to this thread; had a Peugeot 205 1.9GTi in the very early 90s, now that car had lift off oversteer by the bucket load. It was vicious! Roll round a corner at 20mph and lift off and you'd be looking at the road through the side windows.
You quickly got used to it though and would be able to provoke it at will.
Modern cars seem to be so much "safer" these days, that to reach any threshold (on public roads) you have to be going stupidly fast, where the results aren't always predictable.
It is - on its back.
Just keep your foot on the accelerator.
I'm an excellent driver,
I follow the rules and am polite to others.
Yes but always room for improvement.
Which means you stop for pedestrian crossings. Even unobliged you still would.
Quite a risky business.
I was hit from behind by a van once when I did so on my motorbike.
Several near mishaps in the car.
I can´t count the times I was overtaken while stopping/waiting. Several times REAL scary.
About the rules and these crossings there is a bit of a problem in just about every spanish city/village. Many pedestrian crossings are át the corner of the street which means that when in closely built up area you can only see traffic when you stop/wait ón the pedestrian crossing. On busy crossings that means blocking it.
Just one example of rules impossible to stick to.
Another nice one is the road through the urbanisation where my gf lives. Through all the corners the middle of the road is adorned by an uniterrupted white line. The tarmac is about 3 metres 50 cm. wide at best.
Being polite I try to give way to either ascending or descending traffic but there is NO WAY I can at times avoid crossing the line. Ah well. I could take public transport and make a two or thee day trip of an evening visit.
Oh, takes some 20 minutes longer over the public highway than the toll road. Not because of traffic density, dangerous curves or anything else but because to motivate use of the toll road and generate lush income, there is traject control set at 80 km/h on the public one. The downhill side is quite tricky as it is not at all easy to stick to 80 going down 3 to 5% and the leeway is only 7 km/h. at 7.1 over you are docked.
Not sure following the rules and being a good driver are in wedlock.
It's really rather easy to stick to a speed limit downhill. Use the loud pedal a bit less and the stoppy one a bit more. If you want to mix things up for sme variety, play with engine braking.
'Gradients' must only be in the advanced drivers test over there ...
Sure it is possble. In high gear foot off the the throttle pedal I BRAKE with regularity.
Rather silly on a near empty double lane highway and not safe at all.
The ´tricky´ I refer to is that it means you are concentrated on the speedometer for 10 kilometers rather than on driving safely.
There are many clusters of bunched up cars not maintaing sufficient distance and also many drivers wandering about.
The law has created a higher risk zone because of economic interests.
The upside for mé is that it saves me fuel and I get no irritated responses on my normally 90-100 km/h pace.
Driving is very dependent on the conditions of the car, weather, road etc.
Not just the driver.
I disagree.
It is imo ALL about the driver. Hence my opinion that if safety was a priority, say half would not have license.
No matter what, a good driver adjusts to stay within parameters + safety margin.
Sometimes meaning NÓ driving. Like when car/weather/road/skill is/are insufficient.
got to agree with you. driver skill is very important and actually I think that has largely been forgotten. I often find people seem to lose there minds and become irrational once they are behind a wheel. My take is that I trust myself when I drive, but I don't trust anyone else on the road when I'm driving. Today's cars are high performance and are largely safe cars compared to how they used to be, and I think people think they can drive how they want, and its ok to do that, and the car will adjust as necessary. All day every day I see terrible drivers on the road. I think all cars should be fitted with some sort of drive evaluation device which gets sent to dvla or someone like that.
my top moans on the road are: people who don't indicate. inconsiderate drivers. and actually cyclists!
If only one would remember that a speed limit is the MAXIMUM speed one's allowed to drive, not a compulsory speed to maintain yet not exceed, one would not need to have their eyes on the speedometer all the time
I know it's tempting on a clear road but try it, it's not that hard, you only arrive a few minutes later and it makes the drive less stressful.
I'm consider myself a very good driver! Started my driving career with the Police... 6 week advanced course, then seconded onto Road Traffic cars... been with some exceptional drivers ... done high speed pursuits... dealt with some real idiots, and accidents.
To me driving is a state of mind and being in the right gear at the right speed for the conditions and hazards ahead, and being one step ahead for anticipation.
No such thing as an accident in my book.. it's all down to bad driving.... even understeering and oversteering... you need to drive with car sympathy.
Before anyone says, 'I've seen some crap Police drivers', I'd tend to agree as I believe the standards have dropped considerably, and that includes public... too much mobile phone use, heads turning to look at the kids in the rear seats, driving too close etc.
Rod
You could have read that written by me in this very thread earlier.If only one would remember that a speed limit is the MAXIMUM speed one's allowed to drive, not a compulsory speed to maintain yet not exceed, one would not need to have their eyes on the speedometer all the time
Going downhill in a modern vehicle on a quiet double lane highway it remains a drain on the attention to stay under 80 km/h.
By all means keep denying that. Where there is no will, there is no way. Wrote that earlier in this thread too.
My point is that like so many rules concerning traffic/transport this is not at all about safety but solely about money, money, money. But by all mean deny that too for all I care.
They are now implemenying 130 as a max. speed on long stetches in the interior. That too is entirely about economics and the estimated cost of a handfull of lives per year apparently good vfm.
Again; rules & safety, sticking to them & being a good driver are not partners.
My take on it is that bicycles are such different forms of transport that they should not be made to share the same lane. See The Netherlands.
Not using indicators is a mark of an inconsiderate driver.
A nice one is how to use roundabouts. I have given up on that. For safety keep more than my distance, while on it have to give reveryone on it right of way and... because just about nobody knows what the idea is, I feel freed from the rules and use them as skid pads when there is nobody in sight. No, nót speeding.
I was not attacking you or your post Petrus. Yes, I wholeheartedly admit that on an open road, downhill, it is very easy to step over the mark. And yes, of course it's a money making scheme, not many people will deny that. Proof is that braking distances have almost halved since the first speed restrictions were in place, and that has had no influence on the limit itself.
However, I found that if you put your mind to it, it is very easy to break the habit of a lifetime and drive more slowly. On a 20 km journey, driving 80 km/h the journey will take 15 minutes. At 70 km/h, just 2 minutes and 14s more.
I insist that it is a frame of mind, not a matter of skills, but probably easier in your part of the world than in the rat race many members face every day. Even easier if you have access to a suitable vehicle and a proper track nearby, where you can put your foot (or your knee) down...
Nope.
In the past I have completed advanced driver courses, skidpan trg, ROSPA courses and driven on the track in my own and hire vehicles. However over the last decade or so I have spent a large amount of time overseas not driving. I sold my driving toy and when I do return to the UK have a Honda SUV type of thing, so bland to drive it is nauseating, however as method of transportation it is perfect.
My driving skill is far poorer than it was when i was current and whilst I believe I am safe, there is no doubt in my mind I was safer when I was current. I believe there is a valid argument for training in driving during a persons life, however cost and public reaction would make it politically impossible for any government to impose it.
Having spent time away from the UK the change in driving standards have amazed me. There are more vehicles, more distractions, more use of mobiles, a lack of respect for other users (that includes cyclists, bikers and pedestrians and their lack of respect for others) and such impatience displayed by all.
Our cars are so relatively safe these days with ABS, of course it gives better braking, traction control, independent suspension, safety / crumple zones etc etc it seems we have decided to increase the risk via our own incompetence and impatience.
Anyway as I say I don't believe I am a good driver and I do wonder would I pass a driving test these days. I hope so but I am not overly confident that I would be able to do so.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
I don’t suffer any drain on my attention to stay within the posted speed limit, it seems easy enough to be able to judge the speed (without watching the speedometer) on my cars or bikes.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
My 15 year old last night. Never driven a car previously (well almost, she did do a few laps of an airfield aged 12 in a 2.5 V6 Alfa a few years ago). After 90 minutes she was able to not only drive but also recognise and control understeer and oversteer, and perform a handbrake turn. For those of you with young kids who are interested in cars, get yourself down to your local motor club and do some grass autotests. My club even pays the entry fees for children aged 14-16 so all you need is a car (that one cost me £300!).
True and I potter along enjoying the ride. Which is indeed a frame of mind.
It helps NOT driving a modern car. Those insulate the occupants from external sensations.
As to accidents, your own skills only go so far to avoid those in the case of mistakes by others.
Yesterday I received the news that a nephew was killed on his motorcycle by a car driver not noticing him. He was not speeding, having right of way etc.
You would have to go backwards on many occasions then.
Terrible news. And a chilling reminder that, no, you can't cater for every eventuality.
Way too many friends and acquaintances have died this way over the years.
It is why I stopped riding my fast bikes on the oublic road when my son came. Have ridden bikes for 25 years daily and the daily reality was that other road user did not respect my place, not respect the rules regarding mý safety.
This is also why I can let myself get angry/annoyed by people speeding with wet roads, driving with the phone to their ear, being occupied otherwise than driving.
Over here in Spain there are some 700.000 driving about without a license even.
And with having worked for emergency services have seen too much up too close.
Modern cars are wáy too good in insulating the drivers from information about what they are doing and way too many drivers have insufficient skills to deal with today´s traffic. Never mind the combination of thoseá
With all that about and the State giving priority to the economics, I cannot be bothered too much by traffic rules as a holy set.
I certainly am. Trouble is, nobody else seems to be.
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