Reply With QuoteYes,thank you Steven,and welcome,useful information
Did the Swiss earn their position by holding conferences? I don't think so. Talk is cheap.
Yes,thank you Steven,and welcome,useful information
Steve
Thanks for taking the time to register and update us on this. I appreciate it might not be the best forum to discuss next steps, but although I'm also an outsider, and non-horologist, I am interested in the outcome. It was a topic of conversation at the last BHI Watch Forum, and also between AHS colleagues. I'll email you separately.
Warmest regards
M
Horologists are by nature slow, cautious, risk averse, and comfortable working alone. They have to be to do what they do, and these are admirable qualities in that context. However, they are pretty much the reverse of the attributes needed to drive a succesful multi national business. What the Swiss got right was getting the businesman and the horologists to respect each other as equals, and work together to fend off competition from the Far East while growing their own brand identities. In my view, where the Swiss have gone wrong is that the businesmen have swamped the horologists, and they are now making decisions that will make money in the short term, but destroy the fundamentals of their brands in the long term.Originally Posted by GrandS
This is the basis of our opportunity to revive our trade. If we strike the right balance we could ultimately outgun the Swiss, but it will need to start with us working from a viewpoint of respecting each others views and abilities. GrandS, I took a great deal of time to explain what I have been doing, and you have swatted away my efforts with the remark "Talk is cheap". Why? What good does this do?
You obviously don't want talk, you want action, and I could defend my position by reelling off a list of the things I have done and been involved in with other like minded people to try and help UK horology, but that would just end up with you and me scoring points off each other whilst the people who want to finish us both off stand laughing at us.
The plan that we are working to is to try and unite everyone into a common voice, to gather in enough money to do a proper job of supporting ourselves, do get the base data in on who is out there and what they want, and to then start approaching the relevant bodies to get the support that we need. Are you working on a different plan? If so can you share it with me. If it's better than the one I am involved with then I should be supporting you. If not, why don't you join in with us? We need all the help we can get.
Contact me at iaf@bwcmg.org if you want to help or discuss ideas. Please
Regards
Steve
Steve, don't be put off. The poster is a known idiot and ignored by anyone who has been here for a while. He doesn't want 'action rather than talk', he has no interest other than to cause friction.
I really wish you the best of luck, a vintage Smiths Everest and Eddie's PRS-36 are all I have of British watchmaking and I'd be very happy to own something else made here; I have no allegiance to the Swiss or Germans, I just like well made watches!
If talk is cheap, what would you call the act of taking swipes and belittling someone's efforts, anonymously, on an Internet forum?
Trolling..? Yes, that's it. Trolling.
I don't quite agree. We are 'stakeholders' too. Just as members of the British Watch and Clock Makers Guild are concerned for their livelihoods, so too owners of ETA driven watches are entitled to express legitimate misgivings about the sustainability of their treasured possessions.
Trade insiders have been given plenty of notice from the Swiss and it's all been left a bit late. Not so ordinary High Street punters, most of whom haven't even heard of ETA - let alone understand the over-reliance placed on it by the industry. Complacency has produced this structural weakness. It has all been top show - high profitability through branding without real substance behind it - and all hidden from the customer.
I understand this is a time for coming together and looking forwards not backwards, but some humility and sympathy for the end user wouldn't go amiss.
Now kindly just tell us where we can get some quality approved clone parts for our 2824s to keep us going for now.
As a watchmaker, it's obvious to me that the need for good quality aftermarket parts is the key. Aftermarket gaskets and crystals and crowns, that fit Omega, Rolex, Breitling, Panerai etc would go a long long way to help independents survive, and wake the Swiss up from their comfy dreamworld. There's some out there already but not nearly enough to comfortably take on all kinds of work, imo.
Trying to convince Switzerland to backpedal and start selling parts to everyone again, seems impossible to me.
I wouldn't ask for an invitation to a party I was excluded from. It's hardly likely that having sold over 20,000 watches in 19 years I'm completely anonymous.
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Exactly spot on.
I have been saying for a long time now that the solution is not to try and convince the Swiss to sell to us, it's already been decided and we (watchmakers) have lost 2 court cases in front of the EU courts already.
There has to be someone who sees the opportunity to make the aftermarket parts we need, with CNC technology and other techniques it's got to be possible.
The automotive industry thrives on aftermarket parts, I am even offered aftermarket parts at the dealer for my car.
Lets hope it happens for watches and movements, and soon.
Hi 744ER and forpetesake (I just can't get used to these ID tags.... is it just me?)
Ultimately, this is a consumer issue. Is the end user getting a fair deal if they can only get servicing at specific locations, and under the manufacturers terms? Clearly the independant trade is what keeps the manufacturers from hiking prices and lowering service levels, and by the same token, the independant trade is going to have to be much more explicit about its technical capability and standards if it is going to combat accusations from the manufacturers that it is not competent.
The problem with going public with the "Unfair on the Consumer" story is that you will only get one shot at it, and without everybody lined up to sing the same song, and all the facts and evidence to support it, you won't find a mass media outlet that will bother with it. Sorry to sound like a stuck record, but that is why we set up the Industry Action Fund, why we need everybody to put a few quid into it, and why we need to get on with the research and survey a.s.a.p. Every other strategy will flow from the output of that work.
Absolutely right that this has all been left a bit late, but that sadly is a reflection on an industry that has a history of people who focus on their own business only, and don't get active in dealing with the external environment. However, better late than never, and if it is possible to get a Conference from idea to event in three months, then put the resources in, and who knows where we might get to.
The issue of Clone/Pattern/OEM/Whatever else you want to call them parts is pretty simple. Yes the Asian and Far Eastern manufacturers can make them, and frankly to a very high standard, but you've got to find someone who wants to buy in thousands, and with thousands of different parts needed to cover all the Brands and calibres, that means thousands of thousands, which is big bucks. That's why Clone parts are often more expensive than the over inflated price of some manufacturers own items, and only cover such a small range.
Is it possible to persuade the Swiss to back track and release parts. In my view yes, but only if they see a good business reason to do so. However as long as we remain disorganised and devoid of information about ourselves, we aren't going to be able to demonstrate what that good business reason is...
It all comes back to Unity, Resources, and Data in the end.
How about a few quid for the Fund folks? Email me on iaf@bwcmg.org if you would like to help.
Regards
Steve
Eddie, I promise you as the bloke who made all the phone calls and sent out all the invites, I genuinely did not know 70% of the names I was contacting, and no one was actively excluded at all. My experience of the Trade is very limited, I had my head inside a Teaching facility in Epping for 7 years before I did any serious contact with the trade, but now I meet new faces all the time that I wish I had known long ago. I wish you had contacted the Guild because you would have got an invite in a heartbeat. Please make direct contact with me, and lets have a chat.
Steve
Well done Eddie, that's impressive.
Having only recently (2 years) started manufacturing in Switzerland and assembling my watches here (using NOS vintage and new ETA) - I didn't expect to get an invite and don't expect one either as I'm not a watch repairer / watch maker in the traditional sense (I design and manufacture, not 'make') - It seems that this is aimed chiefly at those people who need to buy in parts to repair various watches - where as I have no problem with sourcing what I need most of the time.
I agree that the aftermarket parts strategy could be a very viable approach, and I do ask people I meet who have the relevant CNC kit about small production runs, but the set up costs are huge, and the range of parts needed is also vast, so it might take a coordinated worldwide or at the very least pan european co-opperation to pull off something like this. At the moment, it's a hard enough job trying to get everyone in the UK to get together, so we need to take that step first before we go global.
Could I politely correct a couple of the points you raised because they really are very important. It is the EU Commission, not the Court, that granted the Swiss an exemption to operate their Vertical Distribution Agreements, and the Commission that rejected CEAHRs request to overturn that. The EU Court backed the independants, told the Commission that it hadn't done a proper job of considering the arguments, and told them to go and do it again. The EU Commission then ruled again in favour of the Swiss, and the whole thing is back once again before the EU Court. The difference between the Commission and the Court is very significant in understanding what is going on.
Also be very careful about drawing a parallel with the motor trade. When the Japanese (I think) applied to the EU Commission to restrict parts supply to its dealer network only, the Commission realised that this would hugely affect every person and company in the whole EU, so they passed the issue directly up to the EU Parliament to deal with it. The Parliament ruled against restricted parts supply in the Motor Trade and passed a Law to that effect, but it only applies to the Motor Trade, nowhere else. Unfortunately, loads of people in the watch world are convinced that because the Motor Trade can't restrict parts, the same applies in our industry, but it doesn't. We need to bust this myth.
Hope this helps
Steve
Hi Piers,
Who are you, where are you, and can we please talk? There were several people at the Conference who work the same way you do. We didn't actively exclude anyone. We did the best we could, with what we had, in the time available. Please contact me at iaf@bwcmg.org .
Regards
Steve
With the experience and success you have had from a humble start Eddie, you should have been the guest of honour.
Cheers,
Neil.
+1 - to add Eddie's forum here has to be one of the biggest horological based Internet sites in the world let alone the UK. The internet influence cannot be underestimated nowadays.
Anyway Steve I wish you all the best in your endeavors.
I'm glad you weren't "excluded".
I hope your conversation with the Guild ends positively.
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