Around three weeks ago it was announced that the site I work at was to close this summer, the current timescale is the end of June. Everyone, from the top to the bottom and around 200 people in all, will be made redundant, though there are a few vacancies in other sites within the UK.
I'm one of 7 management grade colleagues that have been nominated by our piers to represent them in the redundancy package negotiations, the meeting is scheduled for this coming Wednesday. We've already had 2 meetings though these were to discuss the business case for shutting the site and the outplacement services that will be provided.
I've never been involved with such negotiations before and I'd be interested to hear from those that have. How have the negotiations progressed? Satisfactory outcome or not? What kind of prep work was carried out beforehand? And so on. We are aware of our site's achievements and contributions relative to other sites and we're currently trying to build a case to support the best package possible however any other pointers would be gratefully recieved.
I should state now that the reason for closure is, in short, down to the company building a brand new site, the largest of its type in the world, and our work is transferring to there. Our site's closure is nothing to do with any failure to perform on our part.
where are the staff coming from at the new site?Originally Posted by CardShark
how far away is it?
can you relocate to it? was that even an option?
I think we need a bit more info, as it stands it looks like your going bye bye, with a redundancy package relevant to your time with the company.
Have a look at the ACAS site, it gives decent info on the process your employer is required to follow.
We've just been through redundancies although only a handful due to loss of a contract but we opted to go down the collective consultation route (as your employer is doing due to the scale).
It looks to me as though you won't have much chance challenging the business decision, even if you believe they should be closing another site. May be be test to use your energy to get the best package for those who you will be representing.
It's an unsettling time so make sure you focus some of your energy on yourself, it's easy to get wrapped up in the process and with juggling (sometimes pointless) queries from others.
Good luck.
Good advice above and good luck. IMO it's worth recognising that you are not negotiating, you are being consulted. So do your absolute best to get across to management what you and your colleagues feel about each aspect of the proposals as this may lead to some of the terms being modified eg timings, outplacement support etc. . But don't spend too much time trying to construct legal and business cases etc. If the HR dept have done their job properly (which you should also check) then the case has already been made.
You should have or get access to an HR specialist, as TUPE could apply if the work (or undertaking) is transferring to the new site.
If so, even if the new site is a long way away, there should still be a process to go through as there may be some people who would be willing to transfer/move. It matters not if there are already encumbents in place at the new site who will do the work.
Edit: Should have asked my wife first (she's an HR business partner), and she's reminded me that TUPE only applies if the business is transferring ownership or any situation where the legal employer changes, and I don't know if that's the case with this move. From the OP, it looks like a straight redundancy situation, but it may be possible to ask for consideration to be given to anybody who is willing to transfer to the new site as a redundancy avoidance measure. After that, anything over statutory redundancy, including non financial support, will be the best result you can hope for.
Thanks for the responses guys, I'll try to cover some of the questions and points raised.
We know we can't save the site and we understand fully why it was us and not another. The new site has been operational for a couple of years and is still in its ramping up phase, due to the high degree of automation even during ramp up there will only be very limited opportunities to transfer and there are no vacancies at my level. The site, and one other, is technically commutable (maybe 1h 30m each way) though it would be a very long day on top of a shift, I'm not looking to continue my employment with the company anyway.
Ultimately what I'm looking for is where can we look for ammunition to support the best redundancy package possible, if we're told the deal is X how could we get it to Y? For example, we know that non management are currently in line for a better deal than us if all we are offered is the statutory rate, that's something we don't believe would be fair. Or are we being naive in thinking that there's going to be any real negotiation process at all?
As said above - you are part of a consultation process, not a negotiation. Consultation is '...the seeking and receiving of views (with a view to reaching agreement...'
I'm assuming the new site is either a long way away and/or overseas there is no realistic prospect of any current employee being employed there?
The reference to TUPE above is completely irrelevant as there is no undertaking being transferred (to another party) so be careful what you read!
The key things are (in no particular order)
Communication (consultation!) with the affected parties - pretty much everyone
Clarity over individual entitlements to severance pay - statutory or enhanced?
Notice periods and commencement thereof
(You might just check the company has notified the DTI)
Outplacement provision
(Usually an important one) Get agreement for the early release of anyone who finds another job BEFORE closure - legally they are entitled to nothing!
Is there any prospect of current employees working at the new site? Relocation support might be cheaper than redundancy. If any specialist staff are require post closure (hand-over) talk about retention payments maybe?
They might have different terms for different staff groups - it's not intrinsically illegal or even improper
Stock options?
Don't spin your wheels on whether the closure is 'right' -that ship has sailed!!
PM if you would like to discuss specifics?
I don't understand what us to negotiate, if the decisions have all been made you have no levers, unless loyalty bonuses are on offer for a smooth shutdown.
Will this effect more than 20% of the total number of employees in the whole company?
Come on - read the thread!!
The site is closing!!
It's not negotiation
There are levers, but reversing the decision isn't one of them.........
Did you actually read what I posted?
Assuming I interpreted the typos correctly - you asked what (there is) to negotiate. Please explain what you're asking when the aspect of CONSULTATION is explained in other posts and there is no negotiation?
20% of the global workforce? So what? A redundancy situation applies.
Please explain as I'm as confused as everyone else......
Not naive IMO, like most you've never done this before and it sounds like you are being very sensible. I've been on the management side in this plenty of times. All I can say is staff reps who try to claim legal precedents etc. are usually easy for mgmt to disregard as the process is very clear cut. Reps who bring unfairness or unintended consequences to mgmt attention in a professional way are generally listened to fairly. And as I said, make sure you so understand the process so you can check they don't try any shortcuts.
Of course he didn't, he just likes to be antagonistic on every thread.
Beats spouting incorrect 'advice'............
What is incorrect about it, do tell?
TUPE can still apply when work or employees are transferred within a group or under a holding company.
The suggestion to take expert HR advice sounds very sensible.
Last edited by Tooks; 27th March 2016 at 16:20. Reason: Shouldn't stoop to your level...
If your employer has not done so already, try and get the local Jobcentre involved with a view to offering advice to all concerned and maybe joining / forming a job-club - where you can pool resources to help each other with CVs and job applications. The sooner job applications are commenced the better - rather than sitting around at home and spending redundancy payments.
dunk
"Well they would say that ... wouldn't they!"
Where is the transfer? The work is ceasing and some/all being move to (what I believe is) a substantial distance away, we don't know whether that's in the UK or not?
The jobs probably are transferring in whole or part............but we're not aware of anyone wanting 'their' current job in the new location so where does the relevance of TUPE kick-in?
So, as I thought, nothing is incorrect.
Look at the time I posted it, and then read the post again to see where I say it could apply.
I've worked with many companies where TUPE has been incorrectly applied, why do you assume it doesn't apply here, given the lack of detail?
Last edited by Tooks; 27th March 2016 at 16:20.
I've been involved in redundancy from the management side and more lately advising people on the procedure that has to be followed at CA.
There is no negotiation, there is simply a procedure the employer should follow. The above post is spot on.
For the up to date facts see here:- https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/wo...nd/redundancy/
Simple really - the OP has asked what to 'do' where the site is closing - there's a heavy inference that it is all 200 people being made redundant. I'm sure he would have mentioned people transferring/wanting to transfer to the new site if that was the case?
Let's await his comment shall we?
He already has, he stated there was 'limited' opportunity to transfer.
All I'm saying, is that dependent on the company structure (and it sounds like a large one) it is worth checking that legislation has been applied properly.
If it has, then great (if redundancy can ever be great).
Even if TUPE were applicable (and as far as i can see there has been no mention of the business being transferred) the employer only has to show that you were genuinely redundant, because there’s no longer any need for the work you were doing and the transfer itself was not the only, or main reason, for your redundancy to circumvent its protection.
Before that bloke started trying to dominate the thread the point I was trying to make was, if they have built a new site the have an obligation to offer employment to the existing employees, just changing job titles for identical responsibilities isn't good enough, nore is avoiding the selection process by saying we are closing the site. The employer has to be extremely carefull otherwise they can leave themselves open to unfair dismissal cases. And as I was also trying to say if a smooth transition is critical to the employer the best thing would be to try and negotiate loyalty Bonuses for staff.
OK, just to clear up a few things.
In all there are approx 230 people affected by the site's closure, around 30 of which will have their roles transferred to another company which is where I believe TUPE steps in. These 30 are not in any way related to my role and have Union representation instead of nominated reps such as myself - their consultations are held completely independently of the ones I'm involved with. The other 200, of which maybe 1/3 are considered to be management grade and have "negotiable" terms, are free to apply for other vacancies within the company of which there may be around 15 or so in the UK and a small amount abroad, obviously 200 doesn't fit into 15 so the vast majority of people will be leaving the company. We will have teams of people from those sites visiting us to allow people to ask questions and decide if they're prepared to move site. We have already discussed the possibility of relocation packages (will be dealt with on a 1 to 1 basis), further training packages (eg forklift licence, basic maths/English, CV writing etc), pension advice and having job shops set up so that those being made redundant have options to improve their chances outside of the company. Beyond the last date of production, currently expected to be the end of June, there will be a decommissioning phase whereby only a skeleton specialist engineering crew will be left to finish off - this isn't my area of expertise within the business so won't directly affect me. The relevant government body has been informed, I have copies of the official documentation, and we all know that there's zero chance on a U turn so we won't be wasting time with that.
Post #7 has a few questions within it that require discussion in our upcoming meeting, for example clarification of notice periods and statutory or enhanced redundancy packages, and thank you for the CA link. As I have already said, we know that the non-management grade staff are getting a better package than management (if the company just goes with the statutory entitlements) so we think we have some room here should the very basic be initially offered.
Incidentally, I am wary of the terminology used in such discussions. For example, our first meeting was to discuss the "proposed" site closure even though it wasn't actually proposed at all... I appreciate that certain phrases have to be used to keep things legal.
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