Reply With QuoteI may as well be the first to say watches!
As watch fans we are, in general, people who like good equipment that satisfies & impresses us. There are a lot of areas where you pay for what you get (good examples being computers, cars, shoes)...
There are other parts of the consumer spectrum where the differerence between the 'preimum' brand and the 'budget' brand is hardly worth the effort or cost. The biggest offender in my eyes here is white goods; dishwashers, fridges, washing machines etc.
We own a now rented appartment that we used to live in, then grew out of and we now live in a semi-d. The appartment has all budget white goods in it, Currys own brand, BEKO, stuff like that. Our semi-d house has bogus fashion label posh brands like SMEG, Bosch and Neff.
After moving back into the appartment during renovations, I can safely say there is no difference in the performance of a £150 dishwasher and a £500 dishwasher. Washing machines are the same and posh fridges are not worth the effort either once you get beyond the flash brand for dinner parties.
My posh dish washer failed again and has just been disposed of in favour of a BEKO and I can safely say the BEKO is cheaper, faster, similar noise level and delivers the same result for similar water qty so I say good riddance to the brands.
One big observation, vacuum cleaners, the Dyson I own is a bag of shite compared to the red Henry numatic thing I also own and the Dyson is almost 3X the price of the Henry hoover.
Anyone have similar observations for irellevant upmarketing ?
I may as well be the first to say watches!
Is the person buying a Planet Ocean to desk-dive really buying a functional item for the abilities of the item or a piece of jewellery?Originally Posted by Dave+63
Once you accept it's the later, then watches make perfect sense.
Last edited by Alansmithee; 14th July 2016 at 22:40.
Know what you mean here but there has to be an inherent value increase allowed for example; an automatic over a quartz, a precious metal over a polymer, a decorated mvmnt over a functional one.
With watches there is a functionality aspect for timekeeping but there is an aesthetic/artisan aspect at play. Take a 0.25ct VS2 diamond over a 1ct VS2 diamond. Same thing but one is larger, rarer and more valuable.
I just dont 'get' the white goods value adding when the job done is the same (like washing dinner plates)...
Our Meile vacuum cleaner survived our builders vacuuming up everything from sawdust to concrete for several months, and still performs like is was new.
I don't think a Henry would have coped.
When we kitted out the kitchen and utility room, we bought mid-range stuff except for the dishwasher. We went for a cheap one, and it's been crap. Runners falling off, door doesn't stay open, and a large piece of trim came loose after like a week.
Also, TVs. I bought a Panasonic plasma 10 years ago, which is working like a dream and has a better quality picture than the modern cheap LCDs. My brother has bought a few LGs in the same period of time.
So I can't agree with your opinion unfortunately (except I agree SMEG is pure marketing, but that's generally agreed. Bosch stuff is mint though.)
Except for example a Breitling is the same movement and materials as a Victorinox as a quarter of the price - the difference is branding.
We replaced a Bosch dishwasher with a Beko at work. It washes as well but just doesn't feel it will last the 8 years the Bosch did.
All points taken here. But have you compared a cheaper vacuum to the expensive one ? Its the side by side comparisons that really surprised me.
All the hotels I go to use those Henry things. They would use posh vacuum cleaners if there was a better ROI.
Might perform the same now but in 5 years time will a beko perform like a Miele? Most white goods do the same job. Some are better made and less likely to fault. Some are more efficient.
It's similar with watches. A cheap replica Rolex will perform like a Rolex and look like a Rolex for a year
I reckon that applied more directly in the 1980s/1990s. These days reliability critical components like motors, switches, bearings, hinges, displays will all be 'bought in'. No manufacturer is going to make their own switchgear for example.
Its like we see in cars these days, reliability is soaring, not down to individual brands, moreso down to supply chain management.
My business maintains and replaces domestics appliance with the exception of gas appliances and refrigeration
Performance maybe similar but longevity will be a different matter, it's not just a case of reliability but also maintainability.
I do like Beko products and advice them over the likes of Indesit/Hotpoint but my opinion is buy a cheap model of the spec you need and expect 4-5 years or miss out the middles brands with all the gimics and get a proper Bosch (not all Bosch are the same quality Greek Vs German made) and pay more but expect a better life span and should a fault occur is usually your typical wear and tear parts as opposed to PCB, Bearings and motor failures.
True a lot of parts are out sourced and there is a lot of brand co ownership same machine different logo etc
Spec wise the cheaper brands run the components near there limit be it heater output, bearing size etc
Every building contractor I deal with uses a Henry, they are tough as old boots. I have never seen a Meile on site in 20 years
Last edited by benny.c; 14th July 2016 at 23:18.
I spent enough time in rented houses equipped as inexpensively as possible to know that there are household electrical goods too cheap for their own good.
I am a building contractor and I use a Henry for all manner of suckin it up tasks and have done for the last 20 yrs.
As was stated above and what my stupid bitch of a wife can't/won't grasp is that our overpriced Dyson simply can't live with Henry and I've proved it often.
Rather oddly, the best TVs you can buy at the moment are by LG.
Every other manufacturer dropped the ball by either not investing in OLED, or switching from OLED once the R&D became too expensive. So currently (and for the foreseeable future) the best TVs you can buy are made by South Korea's no 2 manufacturer.
Its a question of time vs cost.
With white goods like dishwashers and fridges usually an expensive well regarded brand will be upwards of twice the cost of a cheap one. The question is whether it will last an equivalently geater amount of time.
I have had some Beko stuff and I would not buy another.
However the premium level brands usually do not justify the cost differential in lifespan.
It is possible though that a more expensive item has percieved additional value in terms of things like aesthetic and design.
Functionality and lifespan are not the full story.
For white goods I'll generally buy a decent brand rather than a budget one. However I'll aim for the mid price range level rather than the premium model.
This gives the best ratio of quality and lifespan vs cost.
Bottom level cheap brands will normally degrade over the first 12months. You might get a couple a years usage but during that time he thing usually develops so many minor problems that using it becomes a real pain ( trays break , handles come off, ergonomics are unpleasant).
Generally you can get the same lifespan to cost ratio by paying a bit more , however you also get a better overall experience during the time you are using it.
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Its a question of time vs cost.
With white goods like dishwashers and fridges usually an expensive well regarded brand will be upwards of twice the cost of a cheap one. The question is whether it will last an equivalently geater amount of time.
I have had some Beko stuff and I would not buy another.
However the premium level brands usually do not justify the cost differential in lifespan.
It is possible though that a more expensive item has percieved additional value in terms of things like aesthetic and design.
Functionality and lifespan are not the full story.
For white goods I'll generally buy a decent brand rather than a budget one. However I'll aim for the mid price range level rather than the premium model.
This gives the best ratio of quality and lifespan vs cost.
Bottom level cheap brands will normally degrade over the first 12months. You might get a couple a years usage but during that time he thing usually develops so many minor problems that using it becomes a real pain ( trays break , handles come off, ergonomics are unpleasant).
Generally you can get the same lifespan to cost ratio by paying a bit more , however you also get a better overall experience during the time you are using it.
Perception, perception, perception.
Good luck everybody. Have a good one.
If anything the discrepancy between watches and white goods is even more pronounced if you're talking about purely fulfilling a function. A £10 Quartz will tell the time equally as well or more accurately than watches costing ten times that.
What I do these days is I take out one of these 5 year warranty things during purchase, say for £80, and I put it (the warranty doc) in a laminated pouch and duck tape it on the back of the appliance.
We bought a top of the range Samsung washing machine (£750) 4 years ago due to having 3 young kids as a result of unprotected drunken sex. What a disaster that machine was. Air bubbles blowing into the wash etc., variable speed direct drive, way too complex, 4 failures (sorted by warranty) in 2 years, finally gave up and demanded refund.
Right now theres a 2 year old Hotpoint machine (£300 ?) humming away happily where that machine used to be. Nobody is any the wiser...
I have a Henry hoover at home I love it the Mrs hates it big cheap hoover bags simple construction lost count of how many times its fell down the stairs it feels way more solid than my mum's Dyson I think Henry hoover's would be the only thing left after a nuclear war.
I have found to my cost that the plastic drawers in the Beko American style fridge freezers are made from very poor quality plastic and the four replacements I received were all broken.
IMHO the saying applies, buy cheap, buy twice.
Beko, certainly in the washing and drying world, are not a cheap and nasty alternative. They are consistently rated well in reviews and independent testing notwithstanding the price point.
No experience of them outside of that, it may be that their different lines are different quality.
Last edited by kungfugerbil; 15th July 2016 at 09:26.
I was tempted to purchase a Dyson Airblade fan but after a demo with it the bloody thing was noisy as hell. Bought a £19.99 tower fan from Screwfix, job done.
That's a bit harsh!
I think the ultimate example of this currently is televisions.
Pretty much all the screens, regardles of brand, are made by about three companies to pretty much the same spec.
Sure, if you go for a very high-end, curved screen 4k, in a lovely case, you are paying for the design and the exclusivity, but I have just bought a load of 65" Techwood screens for work and they are great. They cost just over a piffling £500 each!
Some will say that the speakers in the cheaper sets are inferior - and they probably are - but given that most people use a soundbar or external speaker system these days it is a bit of a null point.
So clever my foot fell off.
We have a Beko oven (acquired with the house) and a Miele washing machine.
I have recently replaced the element in the oven, and part of the control board in the Miele.
The build quality is a million miles apart - the Beko uses incredibly cheap and nasty components, and it doesn't give any confidence that it will continue working. The Miele, on the other hand, is extremely solidly built, with everything internally being of very high quality.
(Reminds me of my first car, a Vauxhall Cavalier SR. If you removed a piece of internal trim it never quite went back in the same way, and always looked slightly wonky. When I got a Porsche 944, I was very impressed that you could remove and replace trim and it still looked as it had never been touched.)
Mobile phones.
I think Samsung, HTC, LG etc are 'better' than Apple. Certainly more VFM. I have had the iphone for years but since the switch to a Samsung with a lower perceived image I can't ever imagine switching back.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
The Miele versus Beko washing machine is a good example here. I replaced a washing machine a while back and I research any purchase to death by my nature.
A Beko washing machine is, say, £250 and a 5 year total care warranty product is £100. All in £350.
A similar Miele washing machine is in and around £800 and similar care package is over £200. All in £1000.
Theres no way the Miele/Neff/Samsung washes the clothes 'better' than the cheapo.
I'm typing here with a rolex on my wrist, a posh pencil in my top pocket, a decent audio setup on the sideboard. I like to have premium brand things like most of us on here but I can never see that extending (again in my life) to the washing machine in the utility room, the hoover under the stairs or the dishwasher etc.
Worth pointing out that Beko are currently refitting bits to the dryers that haven't yet burned people's houses down - slowly, according to some organisations. It's a 'value brand,' like Tesco Basics, or whatever. Rarely does well in Which?'s reviews and wasn't well-viewed by the guy I had out to fix my six-year-old AEG washer-dryer. Irony maybe.
I get very frustrated with poor quality items that don't last long; I'm old-school, I grew up in the days when domestic items were expensive and you had them repaired when they broke.
My gut instinct is to buy better brands and pay more for a product that will prove to be reliable. However, I don't trust 'brands' any longer, virtually everything's being made as cheaply as possible and I resent falling into the trap of buying a supposedly good brand name only to feel let down when the item doesn't last long . If you buy cheap and accept a relatively short product life you're unlikely to end up disappointed, especially when there's no perceptible difference in performance (are your clothes any less clean when washed in a cheap machine?)
Worst experience I've had was a Samsung TV bought 8 yrs ago. After 2 years it needed repair owing to blown capacitors in the power supply. A local repairer replaced them with good quality items and the TV's been fine ever since. Samsung got the screen technology right ( the hard part!) but failed on the simple bit because they skimped on the quality and rating of the capacitors.......... that's inexcusable to me and I've refused to buy any Samsung item since.
Once I fall out with a brand I fall out for good; if I've paid a premium for what I believed was a 'better quality' item I feel I've been deceived when it subsequently proves to be poor. Sadly, too many manufacturers rely on components sourced from countries where quality control is an alien concept, it simply isn't part of their culture. Invariably, component sourcing/manufacture is driven solely by price rather than quality; manufacturers will then blame 'the market' (ie the customers) for demanding goods at low prices......... It's become a downward spiral and we've ended up with a throwaway society which is happy to discard items when they reach the end of their all too short service life.
Blessed is he who expecteth nothing........he is rarely disappointed! That's why I tend to buy cheap and cheerful thesedays.
Paul
Phones a very good example but Samsung fall into the over branded and overpriced category too these days!
The quality you can get from the internet only brands at half the price of the flagships is amazing.
I had a Beko dishwasher. I'm not going to rehash all the hassle that I had with it, but suffice to say that (once the warranty ran out and it broke down for about the fourth time) I quite genuinely dragged it out the back and shot it to prevent my inner engineer/miser fixing it yet again. Got a Bosch, hasn't missed a beat, wasn't much pricier and definitely does a better job of washing the crockery.
Also lawnmowers. B&Q unit got a pickaxe through it for much the same reason that the Beko got shot. Replaced with a Mountfield and my grass has never been happier. It always starts, collects the grass well and doesn't make you fly into a rage every time you use it.
Chainsaw. Had a Lidl own-brand petrol chainsaw (disclaimer, I've had quite a few tools from Lidl / Aldi over the years and many have greatly exceeded expectations). Now use a Stihl - it is like comparing a nice slice of chocolate cake to some dog doings squished into a patty. I didn't kill the old chainsaw you'll be pleased to hear, as it did work. I sold it to someone I don't like much.
Now.... Premium does not always equate to good quality as we know, and where brand names are attached you can get quality-blind easily, but I have learned my lessons over the years and try to buy rarely and well and hopefully once these days. My quality of life is definitely higher! (and my tendency to fly off the handle with rubbish things that don't do their job well is much reduced as a result).
^^^ Posts like this make this forum what it is. Great work, sir :-)
Our monster-expensive AEG washing machine died irreparably in the week its guarantee expired. The boring and reconditioned (i.e. secondhand) Hotpoint that replaced it is now into year 10 of performing faultlessly, having recently required its door seal to be replaced.
As TFB mentions above, it's not about the name on the front as much as it's about who actually manufactures it.
When we were moving to our current house, my wife wanted a Smeg, but having read pretty poor reviews about their quality since they switched manufacturers, I found out that Gorenje used to build for them, and still make similarly styled fridges for 40% less. Four year in, no issues what so ever.
Some budget stuff is just so poor though. We had two Beko fridges die. The first one was inherited with our old flat so fair enough, but the second one nearly killed us after a year by overheating at the back and nearly catching fire in the middle of the night. We could've had it repaired under warranty, but it was of such poor quality that I threw it away and replaced it with a Bosch, which is now in its 9th year with my sister-in-law who bought the flat from us.
My Miele washing machine died recently, a few months short of 20 years old. We were all a bit upset to say bye after nearly 20 years service. It was replaced with another Miele.
We have had two Dysons which lasted 5 years. A Miele vacuum cleaner, which has also been replaced recently lasted over 10 years (possibly more).
I think quality brands do last. But possibly also due to more care being taken with them due to the greater expense.
Can't believe I'm the first to say...
Veblen.
*runs*
Our AEG freezer conked out and the same make fridge was looking a bit careworn so I had the marvellous idea of replacing them Beko.
What a load of cak!
Cheap pony that just lasted until the 12 month guarantee ran out, would never buy anything Beko again.
By Contrast the Bosch stuff we have (washing machine, dishwasher) has never missed a beat over many years service.
Lesson learned.
Cheers,
Neil.
It's usually worth buying a quality item, but as already mentioned, that often doesn't mean 'premium' branding.
Henry is a great example. We have one, as does every tradesman who has ever visited our house. There has to be some logic there.
Miele do seem to be of the highest quality, but to be honest, I'm not sure I want my washing machine to last 25yrs.
You pays your money...
Another vote for Numatic products here!
Had a Hetty for 9 years and has performed faultlessly, so much so that 2 years ago I bought a John (limited edition to celebrate John Lewis' 150 year anniversary) to put in the garage to clean the cars with.
They're well made (in the UK) and reasonably priced. What's not to like?
Is an Audi, that much better than a VW, Seat or Skoda? I have my doubts.
It depends on what you consider better. Lower down in the respective ranges most of the components will be shared across all of the VW brands. A basic A3 will not be a much better car than a basic Golf or a Leon, for instance. The main differences will be higher up in the ranges where Audis will have high end engines and other components, sometimes shared with brands further up the VW ladder (Bentleys and Lamborghinis) higher end drivetrains, etc., as well as better leathers, plastics and so on. They will get new technologies sooner, etc.. In that respect, ignoring the price and economy, an RS6 will be a better car than a top of the range Passat. Not to say that you won't be paying a part of the premium for the name alone.
I'm really not sure on any of those to be honest.There are a lot of areas where you pay for what you get (good examples being computers, cars, shoes)...
Computers - I guess you're talking about Apple, but are you REALLY getting much more for the money? I don't think so - This is ALL about Brand appeal. As devices they're usually lesser specced than the competition, but at a higher price!
Cars - Mmmmm - No, just no... Sure a Ferrari is nice, but is it really THAT much better than an Audi R8 or a Nissan GTR? Not by any tangible measure. Ditto an Audi vs a Ford.
Shoes - Biggest load of waffle I've ever heard... Sorry, but 'quality' shoes can be cripplingly uncomfortable, dangerously slippery and shoddily made. Shoes are white goods, it's like saying a hand made washing machine is better than a Bosch, it's nonsense. Cheap shoes will last as long (or not) as expensive ones. You might feel they're better, but again, you're not getting what you pay for, you're paying to feel better about one pair of shoes with, maybe, softer leather and a better quality construction, but you're paying a premium out of kilter with the difference in cost.
Premium brands NEVER matter if you're talking about utility, they're ALL about making you feel good, whatever the product.
If that's what you value - And we all do for some things and not others - We buy Tesco Washing Up Liquid, because we don't care about that, but we don't drive Ssangyongs...
So the answer to the question posed in thread is Everything and Nothing...
M.
Last edited by snowman; 15th July 2016 at 16:49.
Can I add manufacturer watch straps to the list?
For what they charge they are usually very very average.
I had a Toyota Yaris that was far more reliable than a company BMW and is far more important to me than image.
Nor a Dyson!!!Every building contractor I deal with uses a Henry, they are tough as old boots. I have never seen a Meile on site in 20 years
I think Morrisons carrier bags are as good as Waitrose ones. Does that count?
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I think Morrisons carrier bags are as good as Waitrose ones. Does that count?
What I meant by computers is the amount of memory, processing speed that sort of thing. Better 'performing' computer will cost more. I'm one of those people that revolted against apple, all my work stuff is PC based.
Shoes shoes shoes... I couldnt disagree with you more on this. I swear by Cheaney and I see the difference in quality between Cheaney and, say, Clarks being a bigger difference that that from, say, Timex to Rolex. The aftersales, the materials, the build quality. I have 20 year old hand made shoes that are as good as new worn weekly.
For me, areas where the brand matters and an example of a 'good' brand in my price range...
Shirts, Charles Thrwyhit
Audio, NAD/B&W
Road Cycling, Cannondale/Mavic
Tools, Britool/Snap-On/Makita
Tyres, Continental/Michelin
Other areas where I'm no longer bothered;
Phones, every phone is rubbish after 3 years. Ive had 'good ones' & 'bad ones'. Currently have an Asus Zenphone (£120 on ebay) beats the pants off IPhones. They all get lost/outmoded/broken in a flash.
Supermarkets, for basic day to day stuff (bog roll, milk, sliced bread, veg) Aldi etc. are the way forward. Theres a time and a place for Waitrose etc.
Fuel, I am now convinced that 'premium' petrol/diesel is a great fallacy. Pharmacuetical companies spend billions to counter the effects of placebo in clinical trials, posh fuel is the same thing as normal fuel in 'normal cars'.
Bottled water, San Pellegrino be damned.
FFS - why is this place becoming mumsnet?
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
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