BBC News link
I've been round the bend where this happened and can perhaps understand the level of deaths and injuries. The trams are not the most comfortable vehicles at the best of times with plenty of open space for standing passengers.
Hopefully the investigation will get to the bottom of any contributory factors. The driver has been arrested and he was traveling at a "significantly higher speed than is permitted", but there may be more to it than that.
My thoughts are with those who have lost someone, were injured and those having to deal with this tragedy.
Apparently some people were trapped in the nearby tunnel. I was wondering how this aspect happened. Looking at the pictures, there's just one carriage (two halves with a flexible join in the middle) on its side on the curve. Does anyone know, did the other carriage break off and stay in the tunnel?
I think that, early on, a TfL spokesman may have said that the accident "occurred in a tunnel". Put that with victims reported as being trapped and you can see how the details were somewhat misreported.Originally Posted by markrlondon
It actually happened just after the tram came out of the tunnel and into an old railway cutting. And it was only the two cars.
^^^ Thanks, makes sense.
We are not far from this....traffic chaos this morning.
Having used the tram on a few occasions, and indeed on that particular section, i do always think that they are travelling a rate of speed.....
I assume they have a high speed set at a limit?
Thoughts go out to all concerned
Im a train driver ..and not a tram driver.
Every single bit of track has a max.speed..I would "assume" trams would be the same?
max speed on this stretch is 12 mph, apparently the driver collapsed at the controls, estimated speed at bend 30-40 mph
Croydon has a lot of really slow bends and climbs/descents, apparently as it went over the windows smashed and passengers fell out, being dragged under the side of the Tram,
really sad news as it has a great safety record, thoughts with the familys, why do these things always happen just before xmas?
Such a terrible loss of life
Thats 3X the speed...
Wow , thats a lot......hate to think what would happen if I took a bend/curve at 3 X the "speed".
Its the first accident Ive heard about on trams.... As you say they have a great safety record.
Thoughts to the families and all those concerned.
Ah, explains the severity of the injuries whilst the tram doesn't look badly damaged.
How horrible.
I dont know if you have ridden on them Mark, there is not a lot of seating, the are designed for max standing room, with massive glass windows that dont open, when that thing went over, a lot of people would have found themselves with no where to stand, just a box sliding with the ground below them.
Yes, I have ridden on them and I am aware of the layout and structure. However, even with a tram toppling over, the severity of the injuries surprised me whilst the tram itself does not look badly damaged (at least not on the uppermost side). Even with the large windows being smashed on impact one would not necessarily expect deaths in a simple topple-over.
However, it clearly wasn't a simple topple-over at low speed. Significantly excessive speed is a key factor here meaning a lot of sliding motion with people being dragged underneath at high speed. And that neatly (if horrifically) explains the severe injuries and deaths.
Last edited by markrlondon; 10th November 2016 at 10:06.
They've hit or (probably more often) been hit by cars a few times.
Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYwJOwzQueA
From the news pictures I've seen looks like it was on train-style tracks. When is a train a tram?
Here you go: link.
Ok, thanks - presume these trams run 'on' roads elsewhere on their route.
Yes, they do. They run on the roads in Croydon town centre and some other areas as I recall and beside roads in other areas.
Have a look at the video I linked to above to see a car crashing into a tram whilst road running in Croydon.
Another name for trams is 'light rail system', which sort of encapsulates the idea quite well in my opinion.
That looks bad...
"Apparently" South Wales (well Cardiff actually) is supposed to be having an "integrated transport system"..A.K.A. Metro.......in a "few" years.. This will "apparently" integrate Trains , buses, trams etc....making public transport much better/convenient/safer etc... (when I say trams...I mean "light rail").
I will be retiring in a few years....so i doubt if I will see this....
Hopefully if it does materialise......lessons will be learnt...from this and other accidents etc
However Im a pessimist...I doubt it will. Lots of money will be spent of course..
I havent had any "dealings" as suck with trams.....Will be looking more closely now.
Tram/other vehicle crashes whilst street running do seem quite common worldwide, from what I can see.
My thoughts are with the family and friends of those who lost their lives.
the backbone of the Croydon Tram network was built on old disused train track routes, allowing Wimbledon to connect Croydon, then from there it went onto street level, a lot of these tight corners and inclines are the result of combining the two to match.
They do (link):
If driving around a corner too fast can cause 7 deaths then safety systems should be available to ensure that doesn't happen.
People are fallible and the provide a very low layer of protection. Given the potential severity of the event you would expect layers of protection like safety systems.
That how high hazard industries approach risk and it's no different to this event.
There is plenty for the regulator to consider: Could trams be made safer?
Experts defend 'extremely safe' mode of transport:
Rail expert and author Christian Wolmar was adamant the tram industry had sufficient safety precautions.
While the investigation into the causes of the Croydon crash might highlight a safety gap that needed addressing, Mr Wolmar warned against jumping to conclusions from a single accident.
He said: "We don't know what the circumstances are but to start saying we need more safety measures is a really bad mistake.
I'm only involved in heritage rail so have no particular expertise.
The controls for a tram are very similar to those on modern traction operating on the railways. The speed control in particular is of the so called dead man's handle design. Collapsing at the controls should normally bring the tram to a stop.
The RAIB will report in due course and then we will have a better idea.
In the meantime my sympathies lie with the people who have lost loved ones.
Link to the RAIB site for their Light rail investigation reports.
Memorial to be built for victims:
A permanent memorial will be built for the seven people who died in a tram crash in Croydon.
One woman and six men were killed and more than 50 people injured when the vehicle derailed on Wednesday. The driver has been arrested and bailed.
I used to live in the Wimbledon area and used these trams a few times. Tbh I always thought they were a bit out of place on the very busy roads around that area, and I'm genuinely surprised there wasn't any kind of speed limitation system. Really sad all round.
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