The 41.8 is my average reading over the last rolling 10,000 miles by the way. I do know in reality it's optimistic. As all those computer readings always are. Sat nav says Oxford in 96.1 miles but the speedo records it as 98.8 so it's about 3% optimistic on mph and therefore mpg. And the calculations are done by the ecu knowing the flow rate of the injectors and the duty cycle of opening, there are inaccuracies here too, in all cars, and obviously to the favor of the manufacturer in order to make their cars look better. Real world I'd say my recorded 41.8 is closer to 38mpg
If you want a large estate or SUV I can't see that there are a huge amount of petrol options unless you go for an expensive hybrid SUV or super thirsty performance model. I suspect that, at least in the short term, diesel remains the way to go with this sector.
+1 I had a lovely Saab diesel, however my mileage went from 30K to under 5k when I moved and i started to experience DPF issues, I decided to swap it for a Petrol this time, as that would now suit my situation better, also keeping one eye on the Dieselgate situation. However finding a petrol engine in any larger size car is next to impossible, unless it is top of the rage super sport version that does single digit mpg. I ended up with a Mazda which was the only manufacturer I could see that done a reasonable size petrol engine for a larger car. I know there are some VW 1.2/1.4 engines but are these reasonable on a car the size of a passat? I think not. I looked at Vauxhall and even they stopped the petrol insignia. My only options was something really small like a up or polo or something like a Audi RS4 which was out of my price range. oh and to make it really depressing I started to look at lease deals which were non existent in petrol.
Originally Posted by Optimum
I would expect large capacity petrol engines to make a bit of a comeback now that the writing is on the wall for diesels given the environmental issues arising. Wouldn't be surprised to see an increasing gap in pricing between diesel and petrol at the pumps looking forward.
I think saying 'massive threat' is a bit daily mail reader. There are many issuers of environmental pollution. I hardly think petrol engines produce oxygen and flowers.
Aren't we simply starting a self-fulfilling situation here? If nobody began to mention depreciation and so on then the manufacturers could get on with bringing out increasingly efficient engines, as they are, and those who have diesels now won't have to worry overly about what they'll bring in five years when they want to sell on.
Having said that I'll be moving from my first diesel, which I've very much enjoyed, back to a petrol because I'll be doing an increasing amount of town driving and less of the longer distances.
Surely no advantage in owning a diesel car these days - unless perhaps driving massively high annual mileage? Admittedly there did used to be a significant price-differential per gallon (in favour of heavy oil) but that was years ago!
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^
+increased tank capacity, near 500 mile range, which can be very useful. Plus - at least in my case - 25% increase in mpg.
You can't base everything on cost. Effortless cruising and pulling power, no need to rev it to bursting point to get full power, etc.
One of the main reasons diesel has a higher MPG than petrol is that the fuel density of diesel is so much greater than petrol.
Diesel has a density of around 850 g/l compared to petrol which is around 740 g/l.
So for every litre of fuel you buy, you're buying 740g of petrol and 850g of diesel. So a litre of diesel has 15% more fuel molecules that petrol and hence produces 15% more energy per litre than petrol.
If you compare a modern turbocharged small petrol engine with a diesel and net off the 15% fuel density difference, there no much between them.
NoTAGlove - interesting to know, thanks
I prefer petrol but I have diesel just because I'm doing more than 30k per year with around 52-53mpg (1.9 jtd 120ps). . if I would doing around 10k/year I would drive petrol for sure...
That is part of the reason, but the main difference is the extra efficiency that you get from compressing the fuel air mixture much more on a diesel engine compared to petrol.
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-The...Petrol-Engines
All this commendable consideration for the environment and the pollution in the cities (especially with the returning London "smog").................. and on the flip side, an increase in the desire to install woodburning stoves! Gotta love the human race.
http://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h2757/rr-1
I've been in a colleague's brand new Jaguar XF for a couple if recent journeys. Common enough car these days but I was very impressed. Didn't sound like a diesel at all and is very sporty. British Racing Green too, handsome.
I know, it seems crazy to me too, but wood burners are "fashionable" right now so must be OK.
Cheers,
Neil.
And unfortunately the higher compression kinetically favours the production of NOx pollutant.
Averaging just over 60mpg, over 20,000 Klm in the Golf GT TDI in Oz, which I think is pretty damn good but around half the journeys are much further than my usual drive when in Britain, and the limits are usually 110kph.
It's just a matter of time...
Just found a large petrol estate - Skoda Superb 280. I guess the 2.0 turbo isn't the gas guzzler that the big V8s are but, even with the demise of diesel, I would worry about the residuals here.
You can get some pretty impressive discounts off that model - 17% off list price, that might help the real world residuals...
I did - about a month ago I bought a Ford S-Max for my wife. Great to drive and slightly cheaper to run than the previous petrol Zafira.
I have some nagging concerns about the long-term potential for the particulate filter to clog up due to most of her journeys being shortish but no problems do far.
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That would explain why a local nearly new car at £28k has been for sale for months now.
I've just had to weigh up this exact question myself, having ordered a new company car. The company was still pushing me to go diesel, despite driving into London every day which I consider a little short-sighted. Opted for petrol in the end, despite the lower mileage etc.
My diesel Golf is coming up to four years old now and I would probably have changed it before now if I could make up my mind between petrol and diesel.
I think I may well keep it for another year or two and see how things progress. It could well be that breakthroughs are made with either type of engine which could sway my decision when the time comes.
At at the moment procrastination is my friend!
I bought diesel last time on mpg and the fact I found a stonking deal on the car compared to everything else I'd looked at second hand. If I was buying today, with todays advances in petrol efficiency I'd definitely think again.
Not sure how widely this has been publicized outside of the capital but Westminster council are to trial increased parking charges for diesel engined vehicles.
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...tion-emissions
Interesting article in the Guardian, I hadn't realised the air quality issues in London were so severe. A,nother reason for being glad I don't live there.
The current craze for wood-burning stoves is interesting. I'm old enough to remember the introduction of smokeless zones (early 1960s) to address air quality problems caused by burning coal. Everyone had to start using cleaner fuels such as coke, coal was banned and people were prosecuted for having smoking chimneys if they were found to be burning coal or wood. This heralded the widespread introduction of gas heating. Surely these regulations are still in existence and wood-burning shouldn't be allowed?
Maybe it really is time for more electric cars. Traffic congestion in urban areas isn't going to go away, If we're serious about addressing the air quality problems we either get rid of cars or get rid of petrol and diesel fuels. Will it happen?.........who knows.
Paul
Truthfully, growing up in a mining village, it was only after people were stopped from burning coal that I realised sparrows were not black!
DEFRA covers the wood burning stoves. It basically means part burned combustibles i.e. Soot are not expelled out the stoves. The multi fuel stoves will be ok for wood but not coal under these regs.
Yep, that hit the day after I bought a diesel A6 Avant. Definitely the beginning of the end for diesels and residuals will fall, probably off a cliff when the city-wide bans come in.
I did a search within 40 miles of my gaff and there were so few petrol SUVs/large estates and nothing I liked. The only way forward would have been to order a new car and even if I lose every penny on the A6 (unlikely) I'll probably lose as much buying new.
I had hoped that any attempts to penalise diesels would have been more nuanced with Euro6 models being hit less hard than 15 year old smokers but I will no doubt be disappointed.
I've just made the change from diesel (BMW 320) to petrol ( A4 1.4 turbo). The lack of torque is noticeable as is the reduction in range (500 miles vs 700 in the BMW) but early signs are that the A4 will return 50 to the gallon and the improvement in refinement, especially at low speeds, is really rather nice. I'm going to really miss the shove in the back from the diesel mid range, but I'm also really looking forward to a bit of red line action without rattling my brain once the petrol has covered a few more miles and bedded in.
Overall I remain in two minds whether I've done the right thing by going to a small engined petrol, but it's too late now...Let's see whether the mooted government policy changes re diesel materialise and help to convince me that I've made the right call.
I've had quite a few desiesals over the past decade, a Citroen BX TZD, a Peugeot 407 2.7TT coupe, a rover 400sdi, a Seat Alhambra PD, a Honda Accord and a couple of Kia Cee'd s, all of them apart from the kias and the rover have had serious problems with turbos, DMF's or DPF's, to the tune of many thousands of pounds.
The days of cheap reliable diesels are most definitely gone.
We changed one of the kias for a nissan leaf electric a few years ago and while it suited our needs at the time, by the time the lease finished we were struggling to justify it. It also had ruinous depreciation (brand new it was nearly 30k list price, gfv on the pcp was 12k, actual value - trade in from the nissan dealer we purchased it from was 6k in 2 years!!!) and nissan themselves were less than honorable in their dealings with us, demanding £500 extra for their mistake in valuing our trade in and then small printing us with extra cost on excess mileage. My wifes family were big nissan fans and I was contemplating an Infiniti as my next car but this good will towards the brand has now gone and I went with a Lexus instead.
Electric is definitely the way of the future, I'm not convinced by hydrogen, the infrastructure isn't there (but could be obviously), there are safety concerns (not insurmountable) but biggest of all is the inefficiency of converting electricity to hydrogen when cracking h2o, storing it and then converting it back to electricity is much worse than just storing it in a battery in the first place. Charge time and battery efficiency improvements are too big a potential profit to not happen.
At present I run a hybrid, even though technically my driving profile would probably favour a big desiesal, the cost of replacing yet another turbo or dmf after 40k miles just does not appeal, yes my battery or inverter might fail but statistically they will last 150 - 200k miles and cost the same to replace or repair if done shrewdly. That's without considering the environmental reasons for ditching the diesels.
We were just about to buy a Discovery Sport for my wife, which is only available in diesel (albeit the new Ingenium engines are supposed to be quite good "relatively speaking") simply because it's the only car that seems to fit her requirements.
I am appalled at the cost of these things, but they do drive fantastically - very impressed.
But, because she keeps her cars for a good 5 or 6 years (minimum) we perhaps should reconsider the diesel thing as they may start to become more marginalised as time goes on.
We have only ever had petrol cars before and she only does low mileage (another good reason to try and find a decent petrol option) but it's very hard to find a suitable estate/SUV that fits with her exact requirements and be suitable for a big dog.
It looks like the market has become very diesel-reliant, so this latest backlash is a real problem for some of us.
Having said all of that, I think Andy G commented along the lines of "get the right car now and don't worry about what might be in years to come" (more or less) which is probably not a bad way of looking at it either.
It ain't easy
If you don't need more than 5 seats then take a look at the Lexus hybrids (NX 300h, RX 400h and 450h depending on your budget), spacious, quick and very reliable, certainly more so according to hearsay than the Tata diesel you were consideringWe were just about to buy a Discovery Sport for my wife, which is only available in diesel (albeit the new Ingenium engines are supposed to be quite good "relatively speaking") simply because it's the only car that seems to fit her requirements.
I am appalled at the cost of these things, but they do drive fantastically - very impressed.
But, because she keeps her cars for a good 5 or 6 years (minimum) we perhaps should reconsider the diesel thing as they may start to become more marginalised as time goes on.
We have only ever had petrol cars before and she only does low mileage (another good reason to try and find a decent petrol option) but it's very hard to find a suitable estate/SUV that fits with her exact requirements and be suitable for a big dog.
It looks like the market has become very diesel-reliant, so this latest backlash is a real problem for some of us.
Having said all of that, I think Andy G commented along the lines of "get the right car now and don't worry about what might be in years to come" (more or less) which is probably not a bad way of looking at it either.
It ain't easy
Low mileages will kill a modern high output diesel engine quicker than anything. Look into DPF and diesel contaminationsoil horror stories on the internet when owners do short journeys only.
Maybe if they rev'ed to 8000rpm and sounded nice I may consider one!
And they are now talking about a scrappage scheme for diesel cars. Should be interesting.
I'll keep buying diesels for as long as my journeys are long and mostly on motorways. No petrol car is going to give the same effortless performance (torque) to deal with the sudden variations in speed our motorways experience, with the same fuel efficiency. No petrol car is going to perform the way my current and previous diesels have, while still giving 55+MPG every day.
The moment my journeys are city-based or shorter, I'll switch to petrol in a heartbeat. Probably a big, lazy, petrol engine.
The boot on the Lexus models are all far too small and high for my wife's needs.If you don't need more than 5 seats then take a look at the Lexus hybrids (NX 300h, RX 400h and 450h depending on your budget), spacious, quick and very reliable, certainly more so according to hearsay than the Tata diesel you were considering
Low mileages will kill a modern high output diesel engine quicker than anything. Look into DPF and diesel contaminationsoil horror stories on the internet when owners do short journeys only.
I have been told that the PF on the Ingenium engined models was not an issue as it only required a passive clean by driving at 50mph for 20 minutes every so often, with the rest being managed by the engine management. Of course this could all just be hocum, but that is what is claimed by Land Rover, so you have got to take that at face value, even if it is with a small pinch of salt.
I may be mis-reading this but Euro 6 compliant diesels will not be charged to enter London's Ultra Low Emission Zone in 2020.
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ult...-emission-zone
Provided everywhere else follows this lead (as I would expect them to) my purchase of a nearly new diesel doesn't look as scary as it could have. I suspect that the entire diesel market will take a dip as Joe Punter will probably see them all as one (clearly this is what the media is happy to peddle) but Euro 6 values shouldn't be entirely wiped out.
Thanks for pointing that out, that's what I understand as well
'...For newer vehicles, the Euro emission standard may be listed on the V5C in section D.2. If your vehicle meets the required Euro emission standard, it will be compliant with ULEZ.
The ULEZ standard is:
Euro 3 for motorcycles
Euro 4 for petrol cars, vans and minibuses
Euro 6 for diesel cars, vans and minibuses
Euro VI for lorries, buses and coaches'
I've actually found another large petrol estate that doesn't break the bank or set out to break Nurburgring records - Passat GTE. Might be worth a look.We were just about to buy a Discovery Sport for my wife, which is only available in diesel (albeit the new Ingenium engines are supposed to be quite good "relatively speaking") simply because it's the only car that seems to fit her requirements.
I am appalled at the cost of these things, but they do drive fantastically - very impressed.
But, because she keeps her cars for a good 5 or 6 years (minimum) we perhaps should reconsider the diesel thing as they may start to become more marginalised as time goes on.
We have only ever had petrol cars before and she only does low mileage (another good reason to try and find a decent petrol option) but it's very hard to find a suitable estate/SUV that fits with her exact requirements and be suitable for a big dog.
It looks like the market has become very diesel-reliant, so this latest backlash is a real problem for some of us.
Having said all of that, I think Andy G commented along the lines of "get the right car now and don't worry about what might be in years to come" (more or less) which is probably not a bad way of looking at it either.
It ain't easy
I sincerely appreciate the thought
I rather liked the Passat but, regrettably, it is too long for her - she has set the maximum length as being 4.6m, which is the same as her Rav 4 (which she used to own) although I have been pushing that ever so slightly when looking at cars.
FWIW, if talking about VW then the (petrol) Golf estate is about bang on, but...
a. She already has the hatchback
b. It really does look rather bland (especially compared to Skoda and SEAT)
c. She really wanted to get 4WD if at all possible (the Alltrack is only available as a diesel)
The Tiguan is also a tad small, although just about plausible, however it is pretty damned expensive and not far off the Land Rover when you spec the one you want...
Oh and just in case this helps, the boot needs to be low enough to be dog accessible (hence hybrids can be a problem) and yet tall enough inside to accommodate a dog that stands at least 80cm.
Yes I know it sounds very fussy, but she isn't; it's just hard to pay tens of thousand of pounds for something that isn't that ideal.
Incidentally, the Land Rover dealer kindly emailed me the following links in respect of the potential future of diesel cars:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38170794
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/defa...l%20report.pdf
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ult...-emission-zone
Last edited by PeterM; 8th February 2017 at 00:57.
Would you consider a Skoda Yeti? We just picked up a May 2016 Skoda Yeti 4x4 150 TDI at the weekend for my wife, and she is over the moon. It really is rather nippy and is fun to drive. Not that quiet though at speed (tall and box-like), but I have found it much more enjoyable than I thought I would (even on the motorway). A lovely wee beast. Just my 2c worth...
I just can't figure how they (the idiots who run things) will manage this diesel revolt. The whole world runs on diesel engines. Trains, ships, lorries, taxis, the only major exception being aircraft and a lot of those run on paraffin.
We are currently looking for a replacement for our cheap runabout 1.5dci Clio 111 which has been a brilliant car over 5 years and 40k.
On one trip this car gave 70mpg and daily commuting (neither of us drive 'slow') gives 50-53.
This diesel scaremongering has put us in a quandary as there are limited petrol or hybrid options that suit our requirements.
It's a fair shout. I mentioned this a while ago to my wife, but she wasn't too keen on the design at the time, but I will ask again.
One of the neighbours at our old house had one - never drove in it, but I quite liked it!
Having said that, we would only be interested in a petrol model (as per the issues stated in this thread).
I suppose, if you strip away all of the detail, we are all wondering the same thing and those of us that need to replace our cars are in something of a quandary.
For the first time I can now see the sense of a lease - you know how much you are paying with no further risk of extra deprecation if that model (or engine type) becomes unpopular for any reason. When you buy your cars (like we do) and, even worse, if you keep them for at least 5 or 6 years (as we tend to) then this diesel thing may actually have a further negative impact.
Having said all of this, I would reiterate that none of us actually knows whether there will be any meaningful impact on owners of diesel cars, particularly because (as you say) the whole world seems to run on diesel engines...
Final comment: I see that petrol engines have recently started to outsell diesel again. Will this be a short term blip, or the start of a long term trend back to where we were a decade or so ago? Will hybrids become even more popular (currently 4.2% of new car sales IIRC)?
Last edited by PeterM; 8th February 2017 at 00:59.
The trouble is most of us are car snobs or we would all be driving Skodas. Just the same as we are watch snobs
Your information on the unreliability of modern diesels is way off. I have two diesels in the household at the moment and the oldest one (63 plate Skoda Superb) has over 130K on the clock and it's on its original DPF, starter motor, turbo and clutch. In fact, it's been pretty much faultless.
I have to assume from the problems you have experienced that it is your driving habits that are causing you the problems. It's common knowledge that short journeys are the problem with modern diesels, so I'm guessing that is the sort of driving you were doing to get those problems.
Blame Gordon Brown for making everyone buy diesels. It been well known for decades that diesels emit more particulates, NOx and SOx, but in Gordon's world the imminent threat caused by global warming gave him an opportunity to tax, and to tax you have to measure, and CO2 is easy to measure.
Battery powered cars are not more environmentally friendly, but they do solve a local air quality problem. But really they incur a huge environmental debt during manufacture as they use lots of toxic and hard to extract metals which have to be shipped around the world during manufacture. So while they stop you coughing in the street they don't help with global warming and the disposal of the batteries is going to be an issue later, starting now as the first of the electric cars need to be scrapped.
And of course residuals on electrics will will be an issue- would you buy an 8 year old crap hatchback that needs an £8k new battery?
I'm wondering if, with a Yeti 170 4x4 diesel and an MX-5 2 litre petrol, we might just have hit the automotive sweet spot.
there is nothing out there petrol wise to touch the 335d i looked for alternatives but nothing came close running cost wise or performance wise for the money, the 335d is imo bang for buck is as good as it gets and i love mine to bits..
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