Can a watch be a better bet than crappy interest rates?

[Orange Peel]

Errr...been a while...let me blow the dust of my keyboard...testing...testing ...

Question for you?

As interest rates are so poor these days I wondered if investing in a watch that keeps it's value may be a better (and certainly more fun) way to invest a few grand?

Rolex typically keep their value, depending on the model of course but what about others?
I was thinking a Rolex sport model i.e. Sub or SD?

Would pre-loved be better than new for this particular exercise?

My days of 20%+ off new Rolex are long gone I fear but perhaps someone may know someone?

I don't expect to make shed loads of cash but surely it can't be worse than 1-2%?
All else failing I get to wear another nice watch and providing I look after it (you all know I'm anal about condition and mollycoddle my watches) then it should stay in great condition and keep if not increase it's value?

Your thoughts are welcome chaps?

[Walesy]

Errr...been a while...let me blow the dust of my keyboard...testing...testing ...

Question for you?

As interest rates are so poor these days I wondered if investing in a watch that keeps it's value may be a better (and certainly more fun) way to invest a few grand?

Rolex typically keep their value, depending on the model of course but what about others?
I was thinking a Rolex sport model i.e. Sub or SD?

Would pre-loved be better than new for this particular exercise?

My days of 20%+ off new Rolex are long gone I fear but perhaps someone may know someone?

I don't expect to make shed loads of cash but surely it can't be worse than 1-2%?
All else failing I get to wear another nice watch and providing I look after it (you all know I'm anal about condition and mollycoddle my watches) then it should stay in great condition and keep if not increase it's value?

Your thoughts are welcome chaps?

I've never bought a watch with the intention of keeping it for investment purposes etc. to financially gain in the future. However, I bought a Breitling Colt a few years back for £800.00. Wore it daily for a long while until my collection grew and it didn't get the wear it deserved so decided to move it on. I sold it earlier this year for £1250.00. My £800 in the bank would not have made £450 in a short period of time.

Around the same time, I bought a Navitimer fighter for £1800.00 and I think I could sell it on for circa £3k today..again my £1800 didnt grown that much in a bank.

Just my thoughts and experiences.

[stefmcd]

Yes, especially over the past year or so. The declining pound, low interest rates etc means many buyers of used luxury watches have seen their watch values rocket. Of course, servicing costs have to be factored in....

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[hafle]

Depends on what you buy, but it is very possible. I bought an omega speedmaster for £800 a year ago, if I was so inclined, I could sell it now for around £1200. Not going to find a bank that offers 50% interest :D

[JPCain86]

I would Factor in costs of owning a watch. Insurance, service costs etc.

[gc52]

I suspect that if you are smart or lucky then, yes, "investing" in watches will probably be a better idea than money in the bank. I have thought this for a long time.

If not then, no.

Most people here will be pretty well-informed on watch prices so will be able to cite purchases which have out-performed the financial markets.

That said, I am not a financial advisor so feel free to ignore my thoughts !

[chrisparker]

My personal experience on only one watch is this. Perhaps someone can work out an interest p/a based on these figures.

Purchased a Six month old 'used' 2008 Speedmaster Pro from an AD in Jan 09 for £1200
Sold in Jan 2017 for £2150 (via eBay with Jan offer, £1 final valuation fee)
Total profit £949, over 8 years, (96 months).

That's close to £10 per month interest on a £1200 investment.

____

If you were to purchase a used Speedmaster now at £2150, and assume the value would increase at the same rate, in 96 months the used price should be £3110 in 2025 which doesn't seem unreasonable.

Would an ISA be better?

[mowflow]

I have a long history of making absolutely terrible financial decisions. I have a had several ISAs which have reduced in value, did a BRIC investment thing just as everyone realised BRIC maybe wasn't the golden goose people expected, invested in numerous shares of companies that have went down the pan. You name it i've pretty much lost money on it.

A couple of years ago i decided to just enjoy the money and to scrap trying to "make it work for me". I like cars and I like watches. So I bought 2 cheap 80s car that I loved driving and I treated myself to a watch. Turns out these have been the best decisions i've ever made.

Certain watches always seem a safe bet. I'd love to be able to predict what will be next to soar price wise but anything i back will bomb and i'll end up hating watches if i start to think along those lines.

[MartynJC (UK)]

Welcome back!!

[paskinner]

The potential problem is that prices never, ever, go in just one direction. We have seen big gains in some (some) watches. But anyone who thinks that must continue is unduly optimistic. Bubbles burst....always. So it's a gamble.
My real concern is that the sheer pleasure of owning and wearing fine watches, gets subsumed under an obsession with making money. For me, it is a hobby not an investment. They are not the same thing.

[Orange Peel]

Welcome back!!

Hopeless case I know!

I try to keep away to avoid the "itchy wrist" syndrome that plagued and cost me so much before, it's worked...so far.

In all seriousness though, this isn't about flipping, I still have and love my black SMP Ceramic and don't plan on flipping it.
If I do invest in a Rolex etc. I shall still use the Omega as my daily wearer and bring out the other for weekends/occasions etc.

Neil.

[Orange Peel]

To be honest, I don't mind just breaking even?
It's not like the interest rates would make me much on only a few grand anyway.
So long as I don't lose money its free rental on a beautiful timepiece, which I do intend to wear...IF I do go for it.

[Omegamanic]

Welcome back Neil!

You know you'll break even on a Rolex professional model, it just what the time frame might be that could differ - but I doubt there would be any mental anguish against a what if scenario compared to leaving the money in the back.

By the way, I think the SMPc is one of the best value 'luxury' watches available, if bought right.

[kaiserphoenix]

I think whilst this discussion would have been a resounding no a few years ago, now with the depreciating GBP and rising prices of watches, buying a Rolex (Only SS Sports) is not a bad hedge in all honesty. Or any other brand if bought at a discount, for example a Royal Oak SS with 25-35% discount, Speedmaster with discount, I think having these in the collection is pretty much on par with having 0.8% in the bank in my view.

- - - Updated - - -

The potential problem is that prices never, ever, go in just one direction. We have seen big gains in some (some) watches. But anyone who thinks that must continue is unduly optimistic. Bubbles burst....always. So it's a gamble.
My real concern is that the sheer pleasure of owning and wearing fine watches, gets subsumed under an obsession with making money. For me, it is a hobby not an investment. They are not the same thing.

I agree but certain watches i have never seen crash, like Daytona, Subs, GMTs....They have been going one way only, at least in GBP terms.

[Samjowen]

I would Factor in costs of owning a watch. Insurance, service costs etc.

These costs can be eliminated by having a safe queen watch, too bad you can't really wear your investment then

Sent from my MotoG3 using TZ-UK mobile app

[dandanthewatchman]

an "investment" into a watch can only be speculation, not investment

For me an investment has to give a return ie interest on deposit, dividend on shares, rent on a letting.

A watch sat on your wrist does not pay out money. There are holding costs of insurance and servicing.

However depending on numerous market conditions, your watch may have some capital appreciation or depreciation over a period of time.

In 20 years plus of buying and selling watches I would say I have had more that have suffered depreciation than appreciation. But I could always give you examples of "winners" ie GMTc bought for £3400 in 2008, spent £430 on a service recently and would probably sell in a flash for £5k.

If you want to do the man maths and kid yourself that taking cash out of the bank and buying watches is an investment, then go ahead.... but there are other alternatives to the bank or watches - many discussions in G&D on that ie peer to peer, BTL etc

[walkerwek1958]

The flaw in all the predictions is the fact that they're based on looking backwards; we all know what's happened to prices over the past 10 years but that's no guarantee that the same pattern will continue. We live in an age when the conventional wristwatch is becoming less of an everyday item to many people, and to me that doesn`t bode well for the future. Luxury/high end watches are the point of the pyramid but in order for the market to remain the buoyant the base of the pyramid must remain as broad as possible........at the moment it's shrinking.

Most of the 'watch investment' ships have already sailed in my opinion. The time to get on board has already passed. Another factor against us at the moment is the currency situation; turn the clock back two years and we were in a much more favourable position but that's now changed.

I don`t think investment potential is a strong enough driver to justify buying a watch, but the likelihood that a certain brand beginning with 'R ' will always retain a substantial portion of it's value is a strong driver to buy certain models from that brand at the right price when opportunities arise.

It depends on the individual's position. For someone with £500K to invest it might make sense to put £25k into watches, particularly if they enjoy watches, but for someone with £10K to invest it makes no sense to put £10K into watches!

Paul

[Montybaber]

It may just be me but any watch I have bought with any thoughts of resale value have not been enjoyable to wear

I can only really bond with the ones that I know will stay with me long term (perhaps due to condition or taking a bath on it) the freedom to wear/enjoy with no worry

I know i would be the same with a Rolex, I would love it but unless it was a keeper I would probably worry about wearing it

I know they can be refurbed at service time but replacement parts (bezels, inserts, crystals, bracelet clasps etc) still cost £ as far as I know

I hope to own one soon but it will be worn with a view to it going nowhere and not wrapped in cotton wool

[kaiserphoenix]

an "investment" into a watch can only be speculation, not investment

For me an investment has to give a return ie interest on deposit, dividend on shares, rent on a letting.

A watch sat on your wrist does not pay out money. There are holding costs of insurance and servicing.

However depending on numerous market conditions, your watch may have some capital appreciation or depreciation over a period of time.

In 20 years plus of buying and selling watches I would say I have had more that have suffered depreciation than appreciation. But I could always give you examples of "winners" ie GMTc bought for £3400 in 2008, spent £430 on a service recently and would probably sell in a flash for £5k.

If you want to do the man maths and kid yourself that taking cash out of the bank and buying watches is an investment, then go ahead.... but there are other alternatives to the bank or watches - many discussions in G&D on that ie peer to peer, BTL etc

For me, the "return" or "interest" is the pleasure u get from wearing the watch. Insurance is an optional cost and not necessarily a cost you have to incur, unlike cars where insurance is legally required, one does not need to buy watch insurance should that person not decide to do so.

For me I see "certain" watches, being like Gold. It is true that like gold, these will not produce "cash flow" or "income", however given the situation of the pound, provides an interesting hedge on the pound, u get enjoyment from wearing it, and should u need to get out of the trade "certain" watches will allow you to do so very quickly and depending on the devaluation of the GBP, price increases, you may get over 100% of your money back. At least thats how I see it. Like with anything however, the purchase price is key. For example if you bought a Rolex Submariner BRAND NEW at RETAIL and decided actually you wanted to sell it, you may get 100% if you are lucky but most likely you will lose a few bucks, not much but alittle as your name is already on the card.

[Orange Peel]

Hmm, a bit of a divisive subject it seems?

I do agree that it depends on what you buy and for how much.
Looking after it is second nature to me and doesn't detract from the joy of ownership and wearing it.
In fact, battle scars and marks do detract from the pleasure for me so keeping it "mint" = keeping the love alive.

I don't want to be swayed by my personal desire to own another high end watch, if it was just my money then yes possibly I'd take a punt and so what if it lost money?
However it is our joint money so I have a responsibility to my wife to ensure that her trust is not misplaced.
She suggested this (she knows I love watches) and fully accepts that I would wear and enjoy it but she also wants reassurances that the cash could be recouped, at least in full even if not with interest should the proverbial pooh hit the fan?

Hey Paul, hows it hanging?

[walkerwek1958]

Hi Neil,
I`m good.....and still dispensing good advice that usually gets totally ignored

Worst thing you could do is acquire a mint/unworn/perfect watch, if you do you'll spend all your time fretting about getting it marked. Far better to buy something that's been refinished but isn`t 100% perfect.

A nice Explorer 1 would fit the bill, they refinish very well because there's no bezel insert to worry about and no polished centre links to get scratched up. They also hold value very well. 36mm earlier version is the one to get, it's a watch that's hard to fall out with' and if you do you put if back in the box for a few weeks. Buy one at the right money and you'll never lose on it.

Another favourite of mine is the 116000 with blue Explorer dial. Price new is now £3950 which is a bit steep, but if you pick up a used one for several hundred less it'll never owe you anything. Again, it fits the criteria of being easy to refinish if it does get marked. A superb understated watch in the classic style, the only fatter lugged Rolex I like (besides the Datejust 116200)

Paul

[Orange Peel]

Hi mate, you mean this one? https://www.rolex.com/watches/oyster...6000-0002.html
Actually I was thinking about the Explorer 1 36mm or the newer 39mm 114300
https://www.rolex.com/watches/oyster...4300-0003.html

Would a Datejust hold it's value as well as the explorers or perpetuals??

[Omegamanic]

The flaw in all the predictions is the fact that they're based on looking backwards; we all know what's happened to prices over the past 10 years but that's no guarantee that the same pattern will continue.

It depends on the individual's position. For someone with £500K to invest it might make sense to put £25k into watches, particularly if they enjoy watches, but for someone with £10K to invest it makes no sense to put £10K into watches!

Paul

For the first paragraph the same can be said of any investment outlook.

For the second, I'd say invest in what you think would make you happier and what you wouldn't regret at a future date - we are not here for a long time and I'd rather spend a higher percentage of my spare cash on watches than any so called investments - but that's just me. If I only had £10k, it would all be going on watches - as it's unlikely to make any real difference to my quality of life.

[Apersonofsorts]

Been thinking of getting a vintage Rolex GMT, and one of the factors in the decision is that it is likely to hold their value better than a new watch as I have been burned before when selling. Only problem is that with the value of the pound so low, and watches being a global market, everything has become about 20% more expensive! If I had bought it a year ago would have been great, better than my stocks ISA.

[MB2]

I think you need to be careful to compare like with like.

Savings account - money protected against loss (up to 85k), instant access to funds if needed, guaranteed (low) rate of return
Watch - need separate insurance and possible hassle, slow access to funds (especially if looking for a return), no guarantee of return.

I do think you could justify buying a watch vs an ISA provided you have emergency funds and other investments but I don't much like the idea of using a watch vs a savings account.

[troymcclure72]

It would be foolhardy to assume the 10 year old kids of today would be interested in a rolex when they're 25 / 35. Times may have moved on. Wear it, enjoy it. There's better investment routes out there.

[chrisparker]

I think for a 5 - 10 year investment a watch is a solid choice.

[Der Amf]

This morning's advert on SC suggests, yes

[Mrdemon]

All my Watches have gone up 20 to 25% in the last 3 years , so it's a yes from me.

I also still have your SMPC as my daily ;-) best watch/£ imo although that has not gone up ! but it's a great watch.

I am 2nd in line at my AD for the 50th ed Rolex seadweller and about 10th for a coke GMT if both happen, I guess both will be £1k over list at day 1.
And the 50th ed Rolex sea-dweller well in 10 years time who knows.

And I have show interest In the 50th ed Apollo 11 for my own 50th being a 69 baby and always wanting a Speedy the 50th Apollo 11th will be a nice treat.

all will go up like crazy as long as rates are low.

Even at £5k I think a 14060M 2 liner full set will go up more than 20% in the next 2 years and just keep going up, last of an era and these have doubled in the last 3 years.
lets not even talk about where 5513 prices have gone or single reds the last 3 years.

so when people say "There's better investment routes out there" I have yet to find any to match my 25% return so far bar Ltd ed Porkers hence I have the new GT3 on order.

renting houses seems a poor return, and I know 4 or 5 people who make a loss due to upkeep of the house, boilers, carpets etc it's a poor return and hassle.
The renting route could take 5 years to break even !!! so if you want money back a NO go due to 5% fees and all the costs involved.

You buy a 2nd house as a 15 to 20 year investment, and get no return for 20 years imo, of course in 20years you have a paid for house which is nice, but you might be dead.

you might get a low risk bank investment making 7 or 8 % but you have to tie money for 5 years min.

So watches are a great tool to enjoy and invest in, and I guess all the guys paying £9k for a Daytona and flipping for £15k are happy boys also.

[Middo]

What dealers are taking orders on the Basel roumour watches?

[Orange Peel]

Some great input here, thanks guys.

So if we were talking Rolex, am I best keeping to divers or perhaps sports models in general or would a nice DJ be worth a punt?
Again, it all sort of depends on how much I buy for combined with future desirability and perhaps even future "cult" status?

The worrying thing is of course that Mrs Peel may, at some point want me to sell and release the cash from the "investment" for a world cruise or perhaps to pay towards our dotage and I may not want to part with it!!!
Although flipping has never been difficult for me it's always been for another watch not just to release cash (except for the train crash of the failed emigration in 2010/11 which about cleared me out!)

[beechcustom]

So if we were talking Rolex, am I best keeping to divers or perhaps sports models in general or would a nice DJ be worth a punt?
Again, it all sort of depends on how much I buy for combined with future desirability and perhaps even future "cult" status?

I'm no expert but in the 2 years or so that I've been around this hobby the received wisdom is that 'sports Rolex' is the absolute best option to retain, and possibly appreciate, in value. If you buy a DJ at the right price it should hold its value but the newer ones will still take a hit I would imagine. I love the new 116234 DJs but I eventually went for the best 114270 Explorer I could find instead. They are 36mm and available at reasonable money at the minute. Unlikely to double in value any time soon but you can be sure they will at least hold their value and in time I'd imagine they will increase in value as the 36mm hasn't been in production for some time. Pre ceramic Subs and GMT Masters appear to be a steady investment but they have already done their 'jump' in value so are more expensive to get in to.

[aldfort]

Here is the problem.
Market sentiment. Think back to the last really big economic wobble. Think about collectors cars. The price crash was awesome. The prices have more than recovered. But you could wait a decade.
So a high risk investment but as part of a portfolio then why not.

[hafle]

Well I just had a look at my ISA. I've only £10k in that, and never used it as blindly assumed it was best to keep it all in there due to only being able to pay in X per year.

£0.07 interest per month. 0.01% interest rate. Think I might be tempted to just buy a watch or 2 instead. Unless I'm mistaken, given inflation, I'm actually worse off each month by having it in the bank.

[aldfort]

Cash is indeed suffering at the moment.
You need to be in stocks and shares.
Or bonds. Or watches. Or wine. Or classic cars.

[beechcustom]

There are some current accounts out there offering much better rates than your ISA experience. You can open two Tesco bank accounts paying 3% on each up to a combined total of £6,000. No minimum monthly pay in or charges. Santander 123 is offering 1.5% up to £20k but there is a £5 monthly charge and you need to transfer a minimum of £500 per month. None of this is as interesting as a watch though.

[Walesy]

There are some current accounts out there offering much better rates than your ISA experience. You can open two Tesco bank accounts paying 3% on each up to a combined total of £6,000. No minimum monthly pay in or charges. Santander 123 is offering 1.5% up to £20k but there is a £5 monthly charge and you need to transfer a minimum of £500 per month. None of this is as interesting as a watch though.

Just had a look at Tesco, on hold for the moment. :-(

[PipPip]

Interesting thread as I was contemplating treating watches as an asset class in my overall portfolio. As someone said, putting a few % of your total investment portfolio into Rolex watches is fine and it's what I'm considering doing. The rest is in my SIPP and ISAs and balanced across different asset classes. I wouldn't want all my money in watches just as you wouldn't want all your money in one asset class or even worse one stock. I'm just looking out for what to buy next with the funds I've lined up for this.

[Timelord]

Watches shouldn't be viewed as investments IMO. They are to be enjoyed and if they hold or increase their value, that's a bonus. However, buying them purely for investment purposes doesn't seem like a good idea to me. That's how bubbles start.

[milwatch126]

Yes if you choose wisely, think 5513 or early Speedy.

[Orange Peel]

What would a nice (unmarked if possible) fairly recent Exp1 36mm go for nowadays and are they easily found or like hens teeth?

[kaiserphoenix]

Interesting thread as I was contemplating treating watches as an asset class in my overall portfolio. As someone said, putting a few % of your total investment portfolio into Rolex watches is fine and it's what I'm considering doing. The rest is in my SIPP and ISAs and balanced across different asset classes. I wouldn't want all my money in watches just as you wouldn't want all your money in one asset class or even worse one stock. I'm just looking out for what to buy next with the funds I've lined up for this.

This is what I do too.