Reply With QuoteHow can they?Originally Posted by coldors
Well, myself and the missus had a day out today, boozy lunch and shopping then a walk around the watch shops in the city, in hope of buying my 30th birthday gift - a Speedy Pro, original moonwatch.
A local jeweller who we've bought from before was our preferred choice, I like the relationship we have, despite not having bought much, really - they send us birthday cards, seasonal brochures, invites to discount events etc etc... the usual.
Unfortunately, when I got down to it with the salesmen, he couldn't budge on the price.
As you'll likely be aware, this watch is available discounted online, approx 20% in places - I'd have happily bought from the AD if he'd even been able to come somewhere close to the online price but it wasn't to be.
In the end the savings online were just too great, so I ordered it there instead - genuinely sad that I couldn't buy from the local jeweller. (Michael Spiers)
Anyway, bit of a rant/moan/story of nothingness but it's a sad sign of the times that even when I try to buy from the high street, they can't come close.
How can they?
Out of interest, where did you order from?
Would an AD not be able to come close to 20% off a new Speedmaster? Maybe I'm too optimistic!
I'm sure they could if they wanted; the likes of Swisswatchesdirect say that all their watches are uk sourced and they can offer discounts of 17% on Omega.
Of course I don't expect them to, I understand their overheads far exceed that of an online retailer. I was getting at the rise of the internet business forcing willing customers to turn their backs on the high street and/or local businesses.
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No.Too many up front costs.Wages,Rent,Rates,Electric,Gas,Water rates,Alarm systems,Insurance,Staff welfare.Securicor cash collections,CCTV. (The list is endless)
Just part of a list that I budget for at work.None of these costs are associated if purchased on line.
"The bitter taste of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" hold this mantra close to you through life and you won't go far wrong.
I went with Chronext. I seen it (slightly) cheaper on Chrono24 but after speaking to Chronext and reading a multitude of good reviews, I felt better going with them.
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When I had my shop, I would usually do a deal. I looked at it as a little profit is better than nothing. Even if my margins were low at times on some lines, it was better than zero.
I prefer to look at it from the other perspective although it's saying the same thing:
The pleasure of the experience is remembered long after the pain of the cost is forgotten.
You've lost me - an Rolex bought via an online retailer is no different than one bought from an AD - well except for the premium for a young woman to simper and say "it looks great on your wrist" while pouring cheap booze into a glass.
This is a sign of the times.
AD's and their suppliers need to waken up and modernise the industry. What's the point of a "boutique"? Apple do it properly.
Car retailers have twigged on and now have "brand ambassadors" who show the product, options etc in the dealership, and help you order on a tablet on line. Daewoo were decades ahead on this concept in the 90's. Bring the product to your home to show it , and then order.
At least Rolex stick to their pricing structure. VAT or loyalty is all your likely to get off.
Another thing to consider is that ADs are not at a liberty to discount as they please with Rolex and also to an extent Omega.
Buying online doesn't always mean a poor service.
I have had a couple of sub par experiences but by and large my experiences have been great.
Attractive price, prompt shipping and good communication are the norm with online watch shopping in US.
I do sympathize with ADs as they are boxed in by the brand rules and expenses of maintaining a brick and mortar facility.
AD couldn't not come close as in a decent but not good enough discount, or wouldn't budge on RRP ?
I was offered £200 off a new omega 3750 last week.
Salesman didn't even ask/twig that my corporate deal would give me a 10% discount, £352, and that I would be looking for a better deal.
Did tell him I was travelling through T5 the following week, so knew the expectation and that I was likely to buy.
Do they work on commission? That may be part of the issue. Reason I hate car dealerships and the hoops you have to jump through.
Nobody likes getting ripped off. Didn't even ask if I'd like a coffee (I'd been in the car for three hours at that point and went for one straight after).
Completely. At best...
The industry has but in a way that might not always benefit ADs - Tag sold many times more of its new connect via its website than it did via ADs. Other makers like Ball seems to be doing more and more 'pre-orders' which seem to exist simply to cut out the middle-man and drive up margins.
Dave.
I get that 100% I really do but the larger organisations want total profit and continually look at streamlining operation to increase revenue and profit. An AD has no future ongoing.
Its not only the watch industry that has been effected.Think about the small local family run business that were effected by the likes of Tescos,Waitrose etc etc expanding.
Then came the internet.Click and collect and not even leave your home. Times are changing.I wont be around when shops fail to exist but it will happen.
(Sorry a little deep)
I completely agree with you Tony (except that shops will cease to exist). In the ten years I had a shop, things changed drastically and always at greater cost. Things certainly haven't got any easier in the ten years since I sold it.
Small businesses are always being squeezed by the big boys on one side and the government on the other. I often wonder how most of them stay in business.
It used to be even more I'm sure. I can get 15% off anything at Ernest Jones, so Omega,Zenith,Breitling etc via reloadable card, before a haggle.
Last edited by -Ally-; 5th March 2017 at 00:09.
Of course discounts are available from AD's, if they feel like it, who the hell do we think is selling the brand new watches to the grey dealers in the first place - it damn well isn't the likes of Rolex and Omega.
It's just a matter of time...
I think it's a bit odd to hear these kind of stories from around the world. Here in Finland, it's fortunately going a bit better - I got my Speedmaster Pro new , with the whole moonwatch set, for 3000€ from an AD. Two separate AD's quoted the same price, even. Looking through GM sellers, more than 3000 seems to be the standard.
If you'd been quick and seen my Sales Corner listing you would have seen that I've been able to get these brand new for members from a well known UK High St AD at £2413 each. Unfortunately I'm stopping this facility until after the summer and of course Omega prices are increasing tomorrow by 5-9% so that price will no longer be achievable anyway.
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Unfortunately, it seems like the role that ADs serve in the watch buying process for many is a place to try on the watch before going elsewhere to find a better price
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Why would you want to pay more for something just for the privilege of doing it in person in a shop?
Anyway, I dislike salesman and flannel so would much rather buy on line.
Maybe so you can touch and feel it get an idea of the quality, if you like it, if its comfortable etc
All salesmen?
I missed out too, in the market for one. May just hold off for a while.
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Actually all those costs most certainly are associated with and paid for if the watch is bought online. This is because online grey dealers have only one type of establishment from where to buy their watches, and that is ADs. In other words, there can be no doubt whatsoever that bricks and mortar authorised dealers most certainly can afford to discount by more than the discount available from grey dealers (online or not).
Now, it is certainly possible of course that some ADs have higher costs than others but, nevertheless, it is an economic, commercial and arithmetic reality that the margin is there for ADs to discount to grey dealer prices and, of course, below.
Quite. It is absurd to think that the margin is not there in general for ADs when we know what grey dealers' selling prices are.
If some ADs don't want to make the sale then that is up to them. Apparently some other ADs are willing to do so.
Last edited by markrlondon; 9th March 2017 at 22:30.
I don't like the snob faces of most AD salesmen (some exceptions here) who look at you like a piece of shit every time you enter their shop, trying to make you feel intimidated to push you put your hand deep in your pocket, not being able to negotiate.. I once decided to buy an oysterperpertual and a speedmaster pro together and the lowest they could go was 300 gbp from the sum (Goldsmiths Newcastle). I found the deal more than ridiculous and at this point I decided not to buy again from an AD in my life. The free market works like natural selection and would only let the most competent to thrive, from my point of view the online shops are far more competent price-wise at least.
except had u bought those 2 maybe they might have sold u a daytona.... haha just saying that AD purchases is not all negative.
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Those sound like the words of someone justifying to themselves and the world - their purchase..................
As I have said before:
The number of times I hear of people:
Going to the local dealers, for test drives/rides of cars/motorbikes - then buy online.
Going to Motorcycle Gear shops, trying on all the helmets, jackets etc, mumbling about "I'll think about it" and going home to buy on the internet - secure in the knowledge that it is the right fit.
They seem to think that offering the local shop/dealer the "opportunity" to beat or match the online price - somehow admonishes them............
They will probably be the first to complain that there is no-where local to view/try a purchase .................. well - go figure!
Do watch retailers/ADs fall into the same category?
I think so, but hey.............
Hopefully Michael Spiers will keep his head above water for many a year to come - if only to provide you with a shop window.
Al
I think the OP is not saying that the AD should match or beat the online price but rather he would have bought if the AD would come close to it. ie was open to discounts which the AD wasnt. I think that is good reason NOT to buy from an AD, especially for a brand like Omega, where discounts can be had one way or another. Motorcycle shops, or cycling shops, these shops can offer additional value at the store with "servicing", "advice" etc and for me I tend to buy at the store rather than online.
But for watches, where the AD will provide absolutely NO Additional value to the transaction, I don't see why they should survive? It seems the business model is unsustainable, given brands moving to boutiques or online direct sales seems to be the future. For watches like Rolex, Patek, Panerai, by having that "transaction history" will obviously help in securing the sought after models, daytona , nautilus and the like. But other than that, if an AD doesn't even wanna knock down 10% for an Omega Speedmaster....they really don't wanna survive, they dont wanna sell. Thats what I would take away from such a conversation.
So how is it that the likes of John Lewis are absolutely thriving in the online-savvy world?
The point is that they understand.
They understand that they need to be competetive with online purchasing on price, and that they have the advantage of real world purchasing experience (touch, feel, try on etc) that the online world totally lacks.
The margins allowed on watches are large enough to allow a discount, of that there is no doubt whatsoever.
And the ADs do it as a matter of routine for corporates, voucher schemes, insurance payout systems, pretty much everyone who promises to work with them. Why not for their walk-in customers?
If you regard the walk-ins and individual regulars as a group, their turnover would dwarf that of the voucher scheme holders, so why not allow them some discount?
The ADs seem to miss the point that every time they do not attempt a price match and lose a customer, they grow weaker while the online sellers grows stronger.
They make their own demise unless they wise up quickly.
Because they do have to compete.
If they have a queue round the block for a model, sure, they won't discount. But if stock is there for weeks on end, shift it.
Increase turnover and get some profit is a much more sensible a strategy than keeping prices high and losing customers.
They could even try a bit of parallel selling with the customer. Insure the watch. Pay for a service in advance at reduced rate. Other straps, a winder. Something. Almost anything. But they need to keep the customer.
I am sure that if the OP had been offered 10%, he would have taken that rather than 20% online. That is easily affordable by the AD.
Dave
Exactly. ADs need to smarten up.
maybe the ADs abroad are less negative and more generous indeed, from personal experience I talk about asian dealers mainly, here in the UK I believe they are stingy as hell, and so am I.
By the way, I never asked for a daytona, what I wanted was to take both watches (6.7k retail price back then) at a price of 5.8k. he offered me 6.4k and I literally put a brick of 5.8k cash on the table. He then started saying I ll call my manager who was not responding his phone and then decided to remain stable to 6.4. I think I was haggling for about 7-8 minutes, so in the end I asked him how often customers buy two decent watches at once in a monthly basis, he looked not very happy with my comment so I put the monies back in my account and bought the speedie from chronext and the oyster perpetual from chrono24.
FYI the speedie back then was -27% from the retail AD price (when GBP was 1.4 EUR) and the OP 2nd hand was about -20% from retail (also from an EU dealer). I was biting my nails for a while since I had never ordered such pricey goods from internet before but all went well and since then I never spent a penny on a dealer, not even for a watch strap.
They can practice their snobbish and in parallel brown-nosy tactics for those who have no problem with that, but in my personal opinion, since I carry the cash and I have option#2, #3 etc., I have the upper hand in any negotiation.
I need to chime in here, exact same circumstances no so long ago. I know the AD for a few years, I know some of the lads working in there.
I asked them to match Iconics price on a Speedy Pro and told him he could add £150 ontop for the privilege of the time and premises and there was no problem. I think it was a saving of about £400 at that time. Iconic were offering a spectacular price at that time when the pound was worth something.
I went into WoS to buy a Panerai and wanted to buy the PAM312 outright. I asked for a discount and was told, no discounts available only the interest free credit.
I asked if they could throw in a strap and was declined again. So decided to buy in the 0% and leave my cash in the bank.
When U got talking to the salea guy he told me they don't offer discounts anymore as their buyers are mainly from Asia and pay asking price. Also with the pound being so weak UK is the cheapeat place to buy Panerai's and other luxury brands for non EU customers.
He kind of made it clear they focus is on Chinese customers who spend big.
If you take a look at Arum Holdings wedsite who own WoS, Goldsmiths and Mappin & Web they are looking for Chinese Business Development managers.
Also, I moved back from HK last year and reached out to a friend who usualy flips watches on a regular basis. The dealers he uses order all their watchea from UK AD's at a discount and without VAT.
In other words UK AD's have never had it better. So unless you know someone chances are very little will be offered.
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I've only bought an expensive watch once from an AD, and that was overseas (present for my stepson) back in 2015 when the exchange rate favoured us. First AD wouldn`t meet my price, flatly refused to get close to it. I walked a couple of miles to another AD in the resort (another branch of the same business) and got a totally different response. After a bit on an arm wrestle he agreed to my price and the deal was done. He knew we'd been to the first branch, he made no secret of it. Same ownership of both branches, yet one was happy to play ball. Stepson asked me to get the watch only if I could get it at the target price, so I wasn`t bluffing when I said I would buy if I could have it for £X.
I couldn`t figure it out either!
Paul
This is also true. ADs just ship the watchs VAT free to clients in HK. HK buyers dont even bother with asking for discounts, with the cheap GBP and ex-vat price, some prices are frankly unobtainable even online.
Good shop, bad shop, i expect this scenario happens frequently in towns where the same AD has more than one branch, where there's a good chance the punter will go to the next branch..
I went there last week to look at some watches I have in mind. I was looking at some JLCs and asked about discounts and the sales assistant basically said the same thing but she did offer me a free strap. I then got chatting to one of the store managers and he said when I've decided what I want come back and they'll see what they could do. He did say the discount wouldn't be like a VAT saving from the airports so anything they offer would likely be <16%.
How have watch prices at ADs changed post-currency slump? Are they taking the hit on the margin or have prices all shot up?
If it's the former it would explain why discounts are not as easy to come by now?
To be honest, I'm not sure. I'm only looking now as I'm in the market for something. Couldn't say what the prices were pre Brexit. The sales assistant did some they get foreigners all the time looking to take advantage of the weak pound, so yes, it does make sense to a degree. Going to non ADs and being offered 20% off without even trying is what doesn't make sense (vs what ADs can offer).
Maybe what we all need to do is pool togther and and walk into an AD request a 20% discount or we walk
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Hand an interesting week regarding online and an independent AD.
I sold my tag to watchfinder a couple of weeks ago, so was in te market for a speedy. Thought would get in before the price increase.
Contacted an online retailer which been recommended on this form, and who seem to be advertising a proce 19% off list as goldsmiths refused any discount.
I was told they would be getting a delivery of 10 speedys on Friday and if I paid a deposit I could pick it up in their London shop Monday 13th. I promptly made the deposit. The. Received an email thanking me for the deposit and that i should expect delivery of the watch 22nd March!
So I contacted them back asking why such a delay, then was told the watch that was allocated to me was faulty so they sent it back. Insticts told me to cancel order and walk away so I did.
That got me thinking with the price of the Omega's now close to Rolex do I really want the speedy, when I am still deciding between the Sub no date and SD4k. So I thought I should just focus on the Rolex. Prob is most ADs I visited don't have any to try on.
That changed on Saturday. Was out with the wife to be for a day out and looking at wedding bands. The jewllers we were in was a Rolex AD. I noticed they had the exploer 1 in the window so asked to take a look, and also asked to bring out a selection of ladies Rolexs for the wife to be. Long story short, I didn't like the size of the explorer and the misses found something she liked. I told the jewller what I'm really want is the sub. He said he can take a look and see what he has as you never know, and to my surprise he came out with a Sub ND 😊
Did I buy it? Damn right I did. Have to say the experience was amazing and we were well looked after throught the experince.
Only problem I have now is, do I keep my SMP or not
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I've thought about this a bit with a Tag Heuer purchase.
My other interest is cycling, and in that life I only buy bikes from my local shop even though it's not the cheapest. I know the quality is good, it fits, the setup is right, and the aftersales is great. For clothing I know my size in Castelli and so mostly buy online, although I do use the LBS when they have a sale on.
The nearest cycling has to offer to watches is Rapha, which is as much a luxury product as a technical one. I spent £260 on a jacket last week, but they have very tight distribution control, so it's online, or one of their clubs (think boutique). The Swiss watch industry likes big volumes, but with those volumes comes a loose supply, grey market and discounts. I'm sure Rolex are big enough to go boutique if they wanted, but for everyone else online markets are a reality. The big sellers (Iconic, Chronext, Montredo) all have good reputations, and distance selling regs are on your side. I do feel some sympathy for small independents, but the larger chains need to adapt to this.
D
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