Reply With QuoteIt's fair to seek advice and discuss potential purchases, as reducing any potential loss on resale is good practice, but this shouldn't get in the way of the hobby, or it becomes less so.
Gosh, that's refreshing . . . .Originally Posted by 2ptjoe
It's fair to seek advice and discuss potential purchases, as reducing any potential loss on resale is good practice, but this shouldn't get in the way of the hobby, or it becomes less so.
You've made some good points, people have acquired collections over the years (myself included) and now they're faced with high costs to service/maintain them. It's all too easy to dismiss this, but many people who bought watches years ago never signed on to paying £400+ to get them sorted out and serviced.
I'm turning virtually all requests for service work down, partly because I`m fed up with chasing after parts and struggling to keep costs to a sensible level, for me the juice ain't worth the squeeze any longer. Even the ETA stuff will become harder to source unless the action Cousins are taking against Swatch Group succeeds.....and that could rumble on for years. I`ll sort my own collection out, plus a few fixer-uppers for sale, then I'll take stock and decide what to do next. It's like fighting with one arm tied behind your back thesedays and it's mainly due to the pig-headed arrogance of the big Swiss brands. LVMH do things differently but that's about all.
If I couldn`t maintain my own watches I would've sold most of my Omega collection a while ago; it's not that long since I was in the same boat as everyone else, relying on a local repairer to sort my stuff out. I got into the watch hobby over 20 years ago and if it had been as difficult to buy at good prices and get watches serviced/repaired cheaply I never would've got so involved.
The forum membership reflects the changes we've seen, it's no surprise that there's now a stronger emphasis towards expensive watches because that's the way everything's gone, it's becoming an expensive hobby and the pitfalls for the unwary are even deeper.
Paul
Agreed, discussions regarding price and future values etc does have a place on this forum, it does help people.
Paul
Having been a member here for a couple of years, I have no idea how it's changed over the years. However even in the brief period I have been here, there do seem to be more "what shall I buy that will retain the most value" type of threads.
As a fan of Rolex, albeit one who has managed to buy them with out seeking anyone's advice, I do find it strange that someone would ask what watch should they buy. However asking for advice having identified a watch and seeking confirmation that it has say the correct dial/bezel insert etc. based upon the reference number is understandable.
I think it's a forum with many very knowledgeable members. There is even some interesting stuff in the BP, although many threads just descend into supposedly grown adults having a pop at each other.
I think we need to be open minded too. I personally don't think there is anything wrong or even boring about an individual building a collection with "investment grade" as his or her objective. For me it's the same as someone who wants a Seiko diver collection, everyone has different objectives and values and that's what a forum is about. Sure, if the talk is everyday about rolex sport watches, particularly modern ones, it does indeed get super boring very fast but having an "investment" objective for me is fine and fair enough. We seem to bash collectors or buyers who buy with potential investment in mind but i don't agree. An investment minded watch person can just be as knowledgeable and appreciative of the design, history, movements. In fact to pick the right investment watches requires a lot of knowledge.
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That's the spirit, I like the cut of your jib! Words like fun and joy are easier to type and nicer to read than "residuals" and "future values" etc etc, ad nauseum . . .
F.T.F.A.
I can't see why some longer term members refer to people 'Hoovering up' watches bought on SC. Surely if it's for sale it doesn't matter who buys it.
I think the issue is that they have been offered for sale at keen prices which has meant individuals ‘hoovering’ up to sell elsewhere which is a shame but I get it and arguably you’re tight who cares as long as it’s sold right?
Instagram @blowersmayfair
RIAC
^^^ It is after all up to the seller to set the price.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Yes, but it's uncontested that prices on the SC tend to be on low side, the sellers preferring the security and collegiality of SC to more public selling routes. This creates the possibility of a worthwhile margin for a hoover buying from SC and selling on eBay / WUS etc. Nothing can be done about it, but it's a shame that some people exploit the forum in this way.
I'm not so sure why there being people noting this unfortunate situation disapprovingly is thought to be a problem?
^^^ Unless it's set higher than paid for and then it's considered profiteering!
I didn't think it was a problem when I asked. I just wondered why the term was used as didn't want to fall foul of it.
Wouldn't have mattered to me as it happens, I don't sell often.
Although having said that I might be making room for new ones soon but if I do sell any I wouldn't trust eBay.
I agree.
When looking at some of the things people post I really cant believe that they would be so offensive, belligerent and cruel if it was a face to face conversation. It only takes a few who derive a twisted pleasure in causing others distress to pull the whole thing down to another level. Looking back on some of my posts I think that I have lowered myself in such a fashion on occasion, to my acute embarrassment.
It will be interesting to see how developments in legislation relating to on line bullying and abuse impact upon forums that are largely self moderated.
One of the issues that has effected everything is the ramping asset prices . Once this type of stuff gets pushed in the Mail online . I suspect the old style SC really is in danger . Recent example a poor chap had his SM300 mugged off him the chap had served in the SBS and used it in the SBS. Apart from reading about horrible crime I spotted the Watch was generally quoted at about 4K .
Just heard an SM300 sold through Philips at 80k CHF. The days of passing interesting watches around the forum are simply broken by economics. Sad isn't it ( apart from those on a massive payout ) I feel though that this why we get the dull price retention postings.
It's ok having moderators but some forums have more bullying by some moderators than members so its a difficult call.
Totally agree with itsguy and Martyn. To add: Martyn's observations apply to a wide range of (international) watch forums (many of which I am a long time member of). I understand that it deteriorates the 'hobby' element a bit in some peoples' view. However, the fact of the matter now is that a lot of high quality/provenance watches are investment grade assets since bank interests are historically low and the financial markets aren't soaring... (same with classic cars).
On the bright side... a lot of the lesser known brands and 'micro' brands can still be bought relatively cheap and every now and then there are still very good deals to be had in the various sales corners and on eBay. I think it sort of adds to the hobby to anticipate on trend and which brands will be keepers and which watches are just hyped...
Taking everything into account our hobby is still very fun and interesting. Thanks to Eddy for facilitating us
I can only agree, and it's one of the reasons that I simply stopped posting on Pistonheads. I have no problem with a heated discussion, but personal attacks or vindictiveness are anathema to me.
Sadly, this is the norm on social media; people can hide behind a keyboard and simply trot out whatever they like. The only good thing is that you get to see people's true characters - a dogwalking acquaintance who would appear to be a very respectable middle-aged lady turns out to out to have a penchant for 'liking' and forwarding racist rubbish posted up by the many extreme right wing groups out there.
I no longer walk my dogs with her.
'ramping asset prices'? Describing our watches as assets hardly helps.
I guess it comes down to what people's core values and motivations are....
For example a businessman working in the Stock Exchange spends his day working to make money... he would consider it a failure to "lose money", so that type of person will probably exhibit a similar attitude in other areas of their life..... they may well at least "want what they paid for it" or very near to the price when they come to sell a Watch or any other material possession.
Then there are those of us who do not work in a profit driven environment. We buy things because we like them..... we have had our enjoyment out of them and then kindly offer them for sale to fellow enthusiasts at bargain prices (I am expanding this to other interests beyond watches).
So which is the "winner" and which is the "loser"?
I have sold / given away cars, bikes, guns, knives, outdoor gear, snakes & spiders for "peanuts".... Lost a fair amount of money in doing so, but I have enjoyed seeing someone happy with the item.
The size of a persons bank balance does not automatically equate to happiness and in the end we are all going to die and other people will get our precious "stuff".....
Can equate with that entirely. We're moving soon and have been giving stuff away that won't fit/suit our new home. Have had comments we should sell but really it's nice sometimes to see other people happy with something.
Only been on here a year and generally find it a useful and friendly forum.
However, I'm always surprised when people are IMO unnecessarily nasty about another person's property. If you are going to ask a question like "What do you think of this?" then expect some frank responses. But when somebody posts a picture of their pride and joy I don't understand why people are keen to jump in and tell them how awful they think it is.
I wouldn't walk over to my neighbour polishing his new car and tell him I thought it was terrible!
Duplicate
Last edited by sarky; 8th September 2017 at 11:25.
But if you were to politely approach the neighbour and discuss certain points, say questioning the fuel economy, it wouldn't be rude.
Watch talk should have a Rolex sub-forum.
Imagine the kudos of being able to post on there!
If people love their Rollies then good luck to them, but the subject swamping all the other topics is not good for the forum.
Case in point.
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...houghts-please
If some folk care about loss then that's an element to the hobby for them.
Personally I don't care one iota about resale value, I'll buy a watch because I like it. Some do command great resale, some don't. Either way if I like it I like it. If I don't I'll sell it. If I lose money then so what? It's a hobby.
Not to mention the panic buying that it causes. People have seen so many (mostly older Rolex) watches increase so fast in price that they went from "yeah I can stretch and make that work" to "I'd need to take sell my house to pay for it" within a shocking amount of time. It creates a really frenetic and stressful money obsessed attitude in some people. It also causes people to rationalize any price now, no matter how seemingly unreasonable under the premise that it will be more expensive in the future.
Last edited by JP Chestnut; 8th September 2017 at 18:11.
I can relate to the concerns over value etc in some respects, but what I find hard to grasp is the way people know they won`t keep a watch long-term when they buy it! Some folks seem to treat it like buying a car, which is typically kept for 3 or 4 years then traded in for another. Even the language is the same, with reference to 'future value' and 'residuals'. Cars and watches are totally different to me, I accept that a car will be with me for only a few years but I`d never buy a watch with that mindset. I guess I`ve reached a stage where my collection has a 'matured' and I'm not aspiring to something I can`t yet afford, so I do see things from a different stance.
I`m not obsessed with value, but I accept that I've got a significant amount tied up in watches so I consider them an asset. I've never bought new, I`ve always bought second hand at fair prices, so I`ve never lost significantly on a watch when selling. However, I`d be hesitant to spend 5 or 6 grand on a watch in the knowledge that it's lost 2 grand (or more) when I walk out of the shop. Buying the same watch for 4 grand second hand works better for me, I have lots of watches so any single watch doesn`t get a lot of wear. I can justify owning a watch that barely sees the light of day if it's costing nothing, but if it's costing money to have it sat unused I wouldn`t be less pleased. I`m sure some folks will agree with me whilst others will think I`m crazy, but that's my attitude to the money side of it. If I thought the watch market would go into serious decline I`d offload a few but I`d always keep the hard core of the collection on the basis that I like the watches enough to not care what they're worth. Some of my more modern ones don`t meet that criteria and they'd be the ones for the chop.
With such a diverse forum membership we're bound to have polarised views on many aspects of the watch game, the key is to discuss and disagree without squabbling like kids.
Paul
Well it is an asset isn't it? Even if you feel it's a disservice it's a fact of life that Daily Mail and others have run articles suggesting there's money to be made in Watches . I wish I'd been into watches in the 90's (would have bought a bucket load of vintage Subs , Daytona's Speedmaster metal hands, UG Nina Rhindts but sadly not. What I now have I hold and a bit like Paul would cash in on some if I thought it were going pear shaped but would hold onto a number of vintage pieces whether they went up down or sideways.
If it's in the Mail they must be ramping.
I think most of us need to be honest when we talk about investments and residuals. I have purchased 5 Rolex for myself and one for the wife. The reason why the wife was ok about it was that I convinced her that they are as good as money in the bank. If she or I thought the prices would decline, I would be less inclined to buy them.
Well, fair enough, but prices never, ever, go just one way. At some point they will fall, we just don't know when.
But happen it will. That's a historical fact. Even houses have faced big dips. Nothing is immune. The only reason to buy a watch , I think, is because you want to wear it.;
Yes I agree with you in the main, if I wanted cold blooded investments, I would continue to pile every penny into the markets where you tend to do well but it is somewhat dull, despite being lucrative.
I agree with you in that I think Rolex prices have gone a bit crazy and a correction will happen sometime. However I bought 5 Rolex to wear in rotation and I enjoy it. Eventually I will kick the bucket and my watches are being passed down to my 3 sons and 2 grandsons for them to wear for at least ten years and then they can do what they want with them. Assuming I have got 10 years left and they hold onto them for ten years, I think it is safe to assume that they will do ok out of them but it's not guaranteed.
My main point as a husband who is under the thumb of his missus, it is easier to get her agreement to buy several Rolex when the evidence is that you should at least break even.
Each to their own Paul, I bought a new car in 2001 and I am still driving around in it. It probably has a value of £200 tops and it costs me £300 to £400 a year to MOT and service it, but it gets me from A to B. Watches on the other hand are not necessary. I have probably bought and sold over 50 in the last few years. It's just a bit of fun, trying out different brands etc, but I have no sentimental attachment at all, hence why I have no problem selling them.
Trying different watches is no different to trying different wines or listening to different bands. I just go with the flow. I would dearly love to discover contentment and be satisfied, but I think that I have accepted that I never will. Cars I just couldn't give a s**t about.
This thread is now no different to the OP's views - talk just about residuals and a certain R brand.
I agree.
I think the OP's sub-text was that both "bonhomie" and "joie de vivre" are less evident than previously.
And, from the development of this thread -- QED.
Pity.
I've gone from sympathising to thinking there's too much moaning about this! Yes it's a little dull at times, like discussing house prices at a dinner party. But it's also dull that many watch prices have doubled or tripled within the space of a few years, to the point where few of us can just buy a watch without carefully considering the consequences. Do we really expect this not to be discussed? It does make the hobby less interesting and does tend to focus people on safe choices, but what do we expect when the 'man maths' becomes this hard?
Perhaps the next person to buy a new sub might consider the possibility that we've seen one before, and ask themselves if we really need an unboxing post. But beyond that, if people want to see more interesting threads about unusual watches, movements, and appealing vintage pieces, I suggest starting them - don't expect someone else to do it for you. I very much look forward to reading them!
When was the last time Rolex prices fell?
Famous last words
Not the main sports models perhaps, but walk out of an AD with your Explorer II purchased at retail and try to get your money back. People on forums often seem to buy models specifically to hold value, which is sad in my opinion. Just accept cost of ownership, buy what you want. What other goods can you buy and not lose on resale? Life would be boring for me if I worried about it and for those who do worry about it I'd say you shouldn't be spending.
I've been here almost from the start and oh yes has it changed.
I'm lurking more than posting these days but mainly because I've seen most of it all before.... still enjoy reading the odd post and of course you never stop learning.
It would be nice if it could be friendlier... like it used to be. But we are probably just reflecting the mood in the whole country... that's not as friendly as it was either.
The following are a few rules that should IMHO apply to us all although far from exhaustive Im sure.
I also (sadly and predictably) anticipate sarky remarks or additions to them that will if anything confirm the need for such rules
1 / Don't post anything you wouldn't have the nads to say face to face (and be honest with yourself about that once the booze wears off)
2/ Don't criticise Rolex fans just because they post more than you...post more yourself?
3/ Don't winge about too many Rolex discussions but rather try and ask why are they so enthusiastic and passionate....and why aren't you? If you were the balance would be more even and therefore what's your problem?
4/ Don't post unless you can do so constructively and with respect (refer to No.1)
5/ Accept that there are just as many here who are bored with hearing about either Speedies or Seiko or let's face it some monstrosities but nevertheless respect the right of personal taste to the individual.
6/ Just be happy for someone whether you like the watch or not.
7/ It takes more energy to post than not so consider if you're wasting your own time as well as being an ass?
8/ Get some psychological advice if you get a buzz out of insulting others or stomping on their joy.
9/ If you can't play nicely with others then play with yourself.
10/ It's a hobby at most so calm down and get a life.
11/ If you don't like a thread, vote with your feet not your mouth!
I think skinny was on about new prices.
We've all seen what Cellinis do the minute you walk out of the shop with one so predicting a drop wouldn't make anyone a soothsayer
There is a contradiction between some of these and it boils down to something that isn't mentioned much, but is nonetheless one of the biggest problems around here: the low-effort post.
Thinks like:
"Nice watch mate"
"Love it"
"LOL"
And so on. All of these just add noise and don't add anything meaningful to the discussion. If you like/dislike Rolex, Seiko, whoever then that's fine, just say what it is about each specific model and avoid repeating cliches like "Rolex are overpriced" that we've all heard a billion times before.
Speedposting is one manifestation of this problem, but low-effort posting does not need to come from a speedposter, nor is it usually speedposters that are the problem. I think, as someone mentioned earlier, the lack of a reddit-like post ranking system encourages this sort of thing. It's actually to be expected on certain G&D & BR threads, but those sorts of threads, which encourage low-effort responses, tend to drown out everything else.
Take for example the recent seiko teardown thread. A few low-effort responses there are, unfortunately necessary, or hardly anyone would even have seen the thread. I didn't reply because I didn't have anything substantive to add. Just repeating "nice work" might be nice for OP, but it hurts the hundreds of other people reading by wasting their time and detracting from the more valuable contributions (and once thread gets past a certain length it gets realy hard to separate the wheat from the chaff). Fortunately, that thread attracted mainly insighful replies from knowledgeable people like Paul and Duncan.
If everyone just posted less often, but better, we would have a slower pace, but much higher quality content. Unfortunately, these high quality threads would get buried by low-effort jokes, Facebook Forwards and BP rants*.
The separation of WT helps slightly, but then again most of these interesting threads get buried by the low effort threads. The problem with Rolex is the vast majority of posts are low-effort "look at my new sub" or "which Rolex should I buy as an investment", many of which have zero originality and any probative value could be gained through 5 minutes' effort using the search. I enjoy Rolex posts from the likes of Haywood Milton and Mike Wood, because of their unique insight and arcane knowledge. That accounts for a tiny percentage overall though.
* which is another problem I will revisit later.
I only buy what I like, however I've bought what I liked in the past, tired of it and taken a tanking on selling it, so whilst I only buy what I like I do take resale into account just in case.
I've been on other forums for 10 years or more, investment ones especially and they've changed over the years as well. It's probably a mix of the changes in the markets (in whatever forum it is) and also a change of how we look and view things being a decade or so older.
As for the Rolex debate i looked in here years ago but only joined a couple of years back, as originally there wasn't much Rolex chat and recently there's been a lot more, which is something I'm interest in. So whilst some think there's too much, I don't. Not right or wrong, just personal choice.
It's an open forum. Minimally supervised ....thank goodness. It will take whatever form the contributions take, which is simply a reflection of the times we live in. Nothing can realistically be done. That's fine as it is still a good forum.
My own observation would be ''play the ball, not the man.''
This.
+1
Seriously though, people should feel free to say what they like AND don't like about whatever watches get posted. Too much sunshine makes for a really dull experience.
Why dont you start a few more threads in wt instead of h&v and sc?
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