Reply With QuoteNo no, nooooooo AND noooooooo
Cheap as chips which is what the engines seem to be made of.
Umm.
I feel slightly uneasy about starting another thread considering the plethora of car threads. And no doubt there's probably an RX-8 thread which I've missed (apologies if so)...
Also, I started this thread not so long ago. Having driven a few superminis though, I've been left feeling a bit underwhelmed.
With a very small budget of around 3-4k, I've discovered that RX-8s seem to be good value for money. I'll be doing a lot of online reading but thought I'd ask you all too.
I used to indecisive but now I'm not so sure.
No no, nooooooo AND noooooooo
Cheap as chips which is what the engines seem to be made of.
I know two people who had them from brand new/nearly new. When they work, they are great. They did have an inordinate amount of problems though - and that was when they were new.
£3-4K budget? At the risk of even boring myself with my stock reply...Subaru Legacy 3.0R Spec B.
Buy one. Buy some winter tyres. Await snow. Thank me later!
Great cars. As long as you don't mind an engine rebuild every now and then.
To be fair, more reliable that the RX7 but nothing like a cheap car to run if you get a badun.
Also seem to eat exhausts too.
And fuel.Originally Posted by Dave O'Sullivan
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Your a week to late, a bloke at work just sold his, good condition, no visible rust, de cat, mechanicals sound £800
You could get a 3.0 Z4 for the same money, which are great cars (and bullet proof)
Or a Honda S2000, if you want a decent jap option...
Great build quality, good interior and sound system but I couldn't live with the 15-17 mpg. I never had the oil consumption issue that some had, using a litre per 1000 miles or so.
FFS - the thread is now going to be rugby scrummed by MX5 comments.....Lol
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
^Ah.
Thank you all for your responses - sounds like a mistake to go ahead as you're all fairly of the same opinion that they're a bit fragile.
I will be keeping my S2000 but thought 2+2 accommodation would be handy for a daily driver.
Right, back to the drawing board...
Hahaha, sorry :-)
I must admit, I've always fancied a Wankel (fnarr, fnarr). I've had many different cars/bikes, from 1 cylinder to 8 but never had a rotary.
RX-8s can be had on the cheap and my Mrs. (who views cars as white goods and never expresses an opinion) actually said, unbidden, that they look "nice". Praise, indeed.
So, why not buy one? Lots of reasons. Abysmal fuel consumption (this coming from someone who runs a 5.5 litre V8). No torque whatsoever, from what I've read. £500 a year road tax if you buy a >2006 one. Bore wash problems if you don't warm them up thoroughly every time they're driven, leading to a knackered engine in no time.
Fun in small quantities, I think, but Caveat Emptor and all that.
Cheers,
Plug
Well, that's that then Plug!
I've already got one engine that needs warming up properly although that's forgivable as it's very reliable.
My brother in law had one. Drank oil as fast as petrol and had to get the AA out multiple times over his four years of ownership, including tows to the dealer four times for various serious problems.
The best one was when the electrics in the car just died overnight. He'd driven it the night before with no issues, then in the morning it was dead. He couldn't even get in as the doors were locked down - total ECU failure and it was away for two weeks getting that sorted.
He might have had a 'Friday afternoon' example but it was enough warning for me. When it was working though, it was superb fun, and he managed to get two adults and two kids in there easily enough.
I've got a Mazda 6 now and the only problem is the lack of dealer network. I'm in London and I have to drive 26 miles into Essex or Kent to find the nearest. And there don't seem to be any indy Mazda specialists either. But, touch wood, no problems so far. What could possibly go wrong with a Japanese, naturally aspirated petrol engine? It's also the only car I've ever owned that doesn't have any rattles or squeaks. And that's after 8 years.
^It's a real disappointment to hear this.
Sounds like the absolute antithesis of the car I need.
I might take a look at Kirk's suggestion before returning to the more mundane choices.
My wife had one and it was brilliant. Fab handling, fun engine and no significant problems.
+1 to the 'No!' brigade
Mostly knackered at 50k miles, 'piston' tips wear out causing huge starting problems and massive oil consumption. So many good cars available at your budget, steer clear of these!
I've got one!
Had it 6 years & it's brilliant.
I'll respond to all the above questions later when I've more time, but please don't be put off.
Key points
- Get a good one, which has been maintained properly - There are far too many which haven't been.
- Find a specialist - Rotary Revs Wakefield are my choice but they're are others.
- Do your research - The Wankel is a different engine as such you need to use it differently. If you are open to learning this you'll have a ball.
Fuel, oil and engine consumption would have me looking elsewhere.
Nice car, but potentially ruinous.
It's interesting that the owners here have all reported good things & the none owners think they're all going to blow up?
From what I've read they use more oil than they do petrol.
A friend had one back when they were new - clever car, great to drive, very thirsty and the reliability and maintenance issues are legendary.
There's a reason why the Wankel engine never caught on...
As others have said, plenty of other great alternatives at that price or less.
So clever my foot fell off.
My mate used to work as the service manager at a large Mazda dealership near Glasgow. They used to play a game called "guess how many engines" every time an RX8 turned up at the workshop.
From what i've heard, they also suffer from the MX5 issue of rusting from the minute they leave the factory.
I bought an R3 (the latest version) in 2009. It had revised rotors with more injectors, a better oil pump and various other improvements.
I had it for around four years before selling it on.
It liked fuel at around 15mpg but didn't really drink as much oil as I expected. It was a lovely car and I do miss it, but not the fuel bills.
Very light and RWD meant that it was hopeless in snow - even the slightest covering but had great handling. Mine never had any reliability issues and I had loads of fun with it.
Would I buy one again? Probably not - just too expensive to run.
Ok, here's a more comprehensive answer.
You MUST get a good one, which has been both USED correctly & maintained properly.
By properly I mean by either an enthusiast or a Rotary specialist, my experience over 3 Mazda dealers is they do not know how to look after them.
Mine is on its third owner & all have been enthusiasts & looked after, it's just had clean compression test at 90k miles whilst its been in for its first clutch change.
Most have been incorrectly used or cheaply maintained & this does prematurely wear the Apex seals & require an engine rebuild.
Avoid these by buying cleverly & you'll be fine.
After 6 years of ownership I can report the following;
- The car has never let us down, ever.
- Oil usage is very comparable to other performance cars I've owned from BMW & Mercedes.
- Fuel consumption is as terrible as you've heard, its slightly better than my supercharged e55 AMG.
- Tax is a joke.
- Standard maintenance is slightly more expensive, but not silly. e.g. Coil packs change at 3yrs.
- Repairs are very reasonable, clutch change has just cost me £350 fitted, even the dreaded engine rebuild is "only" £2,500 fitted. This is a key point when you consider that the Z3 dreaded steering column failure is £2,200 for parts alone.
- Torque isn't great low down, but then you're not supposed to drive it like that, torque is fine above 4000rpm & driving it like this does not affect the fuel consumption either way.
Competitors
Mx5 - I'm a huge fan, I also own one, my 4th incidentally, but they're not in the same league performance wise & obviously size/space wise.
S2000 - Great car, but significantly more money like for like & again much smaller size/space wise.
350z - Similar to the S2000 as an ownership option, even thought quite different so again significantly more money like for like & much smaller size/space wise.
Z4 - These have there own issues but also a good car which is significantly more money like for like & again much smaller size/space wise.
Others - TBH because they are an oddball as a rwd 4 seat coupe there's not much which is comparable, but you could consider Subaru or others if 4wd or Fwd works for you?
Any specific questions feel free to ask.
So often the case. I also had a TVR once. For 6 years, at least once a week another expert told me how they'd heard how unreliable they were and they'd never get one. 35,000 miles later I was still waiting for them to be right. FWIW my RX7 was also faultless back in the day - maybe I'm lucky.
In concept the Rotary engine is inherently reliable, minimized rotating mass etc, however, people need to know what they are.
E.g. The coil plug change I discussed earlier, many leave this until it fails & does consequential damage to the engine due to poor spark. Keep an eye out for the warning signs / stick to correct maintenance & this issue is eliminated.
When you consider the coils & plugs on an RX-8 fire at up to 27k times per minute vs 6-10k times per minute in a piston engine I think you can allow them being a serviceable item.
Alternatively like myself, you can upgrade them to units with much higher capacity & improved cooling & they last for a good few years longer.
I've driven a number of TVR's and in my experience you either get a good one, or a bad one.... both types are great, but one is less reliable! I had a Tamora which literally never finished more than the odd drive without needing to call the AA out, and T350c which never had an issue. Both cars are essentially the same underneath.
The Chimera 450HC is about as likely to be reliable as any TVR.
A little more forgivable for a hand built marque than a mass produced vehicle, in my opinion.
Buy the best condition body wise with an oilburning motor or failure, cheap.
Send to one of the few engine tuners to rebuild.
Use & abuse, awesome on track, flames just for fun on overrun.
Despite the horror show reports I've read, I do still fancy one. It would have to be cheap (many are) and basically disposable in that if it did go bang I'd just throw it away.
So, RX-8 owners, is there much difference between the 192 and the 228? My natural disposition is to get the most powerful available, but 30 BHP isn't a lot so would I even notice? I see the 228 has a 6 speed box rather than a 5 speed, I'm guessing with the thrashability of the rotary engine the 6 speed would be better as it will have closer ratios and therefore less opportunity to drop out of the power band?
Cheers,
Plug
You'll have to try both I think. I found the 5 speed plenty of fun and I've had more powerful cars. The chassis really is very good. If I remember rightly the more powerful engine has the torque come in at higher revs, so you might find the 5 speed stays in the power band more readily.
My next door neighbors lad had one and got through a couple of litres of oil every 1k miles, he loved though
Thanks to all who have taken the time to respond - esp. Paul and Alfa.
It's a difficult one.
The problem is that with older moderns, they might look ok and feel ok on a test drive but are a bit of a dog in reality.
When I was buying my last car I travelled all morning by train to get it. There were plenty closer but none gave me the impression they'd been looked after.
I saw one low mileage car with 26k on the clock. When I got to the owner's house, the book showed a recent service from an independent. I checked the oil and it was thick and opaque. After a while, I made my excuses and left.
Next day I called the independent garage and they said the last they'd seen of it was four years previously. Checking the oil on that car is a critical requirement.
With an RX-8, it sounds even more of a gamble. I need to be able to just get in and drive - I've already got a lengthy warm-up routine at weekends with the S2000 and I don't think I really want that during the week. So it's out for me I think.
But I'd be keen to hear how you get on if you go ahead Plug!
Do you really need a warm up routine for an S2K?
I've owned two of them (and wouldn't mind another frankly) and always just got in them and drove them. The second one had the thick end of 100k on it (and many many track days) when I sold it and was as sweet as the day I bought it.
Ok you don't want to rag it till the oil is warm but anyone with any mechanical sympathy would do that with any car...
All cars should be allowed to warm a little before driving hard, but driving at low revs until up to temp should cause no issues with modern cars and with modern lubricants.
Good question.
I've owned three of them and I've always warmed the engine - they've all been faultless. I think it makes it run more smoothly - a legacy from the early 51 plate car I had that was quite snappy. I remember going for a 993 test drive and the mechanic saying he thought the S2000 was potentially snappier than the Porsche. I never drove a 993 hard enough to find out, but I've had plenty of snap oversteer moments in S2000s. Perhaps you're right though, it's not essential - just gives me peace of mind that the delivery will be smoother.
I'd be interested if anyone knows if warming up makes sense from an engineering perspective. By warming up, I mean not opening the throttle fully until about 15 mins into a drive. By that time, the gearbox oil also seems to free up a bit. I might be talking rubbish though - happy to be corrected.
Last edited by AlphaOmega; 3rd March 2018 at 07:26.
I bought a new high power one at launch. It was the worst car I've ever owned. It literally fell to bits over the three years I had it and was almost undrivable in the end and the main dealer couldn't fix the problems. It had four catalytic converters (fuel ruined), three sets of road wheels (corrosion after 12 months), coil packs, different spark plug sepcifications and numerous recalls and modifications all under warranty. In the end the driver's seat frame broke (welds failed) and I wasn't prepared to spend £1500 replacing it, or re-welding and re-upholstering it myself.
If you find a good one they handle well (spun mine 360 with traction control off and carried on driving in the same direction) and if the engine is working as it should will be high reeving, powerful and smooth - good looking too. Will consume quite a bit of oil and fuel, so be prepared to top up and fill up regularly.
If you find one that still works it might be OK and would have to be sensible money.
Last edited by slever; 11th November 2017 at 11:15.
That was always been my experience as well, certainly on older performance cars. I'm sure the suspension used to feel a bit more supple on the TVR after 10 mins or so, especially on a cold day.
I'd guess that warming up a rotary engine before ragging it would also reduce the amount of unburnt fuel washing through into the catalytic converter, so prolonging it's life. Certainly Mazda strongly advise not revving the engine 'to clear fuel' just before turning it off.
I had an RX8 for 9 years until June. All rhat time it was my regular drive.
Good : It's a great handling car. The internet experts will tell you it's not as good as an RX7, but it's a different car. It was a 22k coupe not a 35k sportscar and, really, for day to dsy use the 8 is better.
Oil consumption on mine was never high on mine just needed a top up of cheap nom synthetic oil now and then.
Ride quality was good, I tried a later R3 and they made it feel like a hot hatch, which isn't really the RX8's thing. Some love the R3, I wouldn't have one myself.
Seats were very good. Room inside for 4 adults, boot is a decent size although the opening is a little tight.
Bad: my engine failed at around 72k. Rear oil seal failure, possibly due to a broken engine mount. I paid 4k in all to get it rebuilt with a number of extras (engine mount, new clutch, etc).
Fuel consumption is high. I never got better than 25 mpg often less.
Rust. The paint is thin, so they tend to rust more than similarly aged cars.
Overall, I loved mine. I've got a Golf R Estate now amd while it's great anf suits my needs better, the rx8 was much more fun and an event to drive.
I never had electrical issues, tax was cheapish as mine was pre March 06 and servicing and running cost (fuel excepted) were low.
The idea of getting a well kept one with a broken engine and rebuilding one is good, imo.
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Broken seats? I mean, really.
Dear me, no.
No.
Just, no.
Broken seats? Broken? I know all TZers have energetic sex lives but even so...
It's as if we're discussing a 70s Alfa rather than a 2000s Mazda.
Except everyone will tell you know nothing about cars if you say a 70s Alfa is trash, but everyone who's never sat in an RX8 'knows' they're rubbish.
My car had done 96,000 miles when it left my.ownership and the seats were both structurally intact and remarkably comfortable.
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
I forgot to add that I once owned a '70s Alfa, a Giulia Coupe that I still miss enormously.
You can tell I am never going to buy an Audi.
I hope you know I'm joking about the seats.
I appreciate the great report and FWIW, the RX-8 will remain on my radar. A good friend of mine ran a Prodrive version and he loved it.
Realistically though, I've been spoiled by a succession of highly reliable cars from Honda.
Edit: I too love old Alfas.
Last edited by AlphaOmega; 12th November 2017 at 23:52.
I wasn't sure, but it certainty seemed an exceptional failure!
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
My friend who had the Prodrive recently also bought himself an original MX-5 with less than 20k on the clock. He had an identical car back in the mid-90s. Perhaps it's possible to develop an affinity for a marque...
Mines a Prodrive, so I don't have the issues with wheel corrosion.
I'm also a Mechanical Engineer on Turbochargers so lets look at the warm up question.
Normal car
Warming up slowly is best practice purely to ensure the oil is operating correctly & everything that should be has the correct coat of oil.
There's many variable in this from oil quality to designed in tolerances etc... But ultimately we do test everything in the worst of worst conditions for oil delay.
Even so I'd advise the "don't hammer it until warm as a given".
Rotary "warm up"
In addition to all of the above for the gearbox & traditional engine components you need to consider the Rotary specific choke/flooding issue.
A key part of the poor fuel consumption is that during start up or "choke" the Rx-8 inject much more fuel you would in piston engine.
This continues until the engine is fully warmed through. If you shut off the engine whilst still cold you leave excessive un-burnt fuel in the engine & can in bad cases hydraulically lock the engine.
Mazda have in the their handbook an emergency cold shut off procedure which is basically to hold the throttle at 3.5k rpm for 20secs to blow any excess fuel through. Obviously this is not great for the Cat, apex seals etc... but IS recommended by Mazda as an emergency shut down procedure if you must turn off cold.
Whilst this sounds a right faff, in practice the engine is warmed through within 2-3 miles of easy driving and the only time it becomes a pain is when you want to shuffle cars on the driveway.
My wife drives our daily & just stops for fuel at the station nearer the end of the journey & it's never been flooded.
Buy the seller.
Mine was purchased via the Owners club forum from a guy who had two & a 450bhp Time attack S14.
The first owner was also an engineer & so am I, so I'd like to think it was reasonably well maintained.
Mine is starting to look a little tatty in places the thin paint is an issue on these & my similarly aged mx-5 but its OK if you keep on top of stone chips.
Yep had to drive it down the road with a wonky/ sagging seat. The whole experience was such a disappointment, it seemed the whole car was built to a price with lots of cost cutting rather than charging a bit more for it. I really wanted the car to be good because on the face of it, it was such an interesting proposition.
BTW, tou could easily flood it, which is not a huge problem, but it put fuel down the exhaust which ruined the catalytic converter; I had it replaced three times.
Funnily enough the three Alfa Romeo’s (164 Twin Spark, 156 Twin Spark and 166 V6) I had were all brilliant (my local dealer was dreadful though).
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Last edited by slever; 14th November 2017 at 11:58.
Flooded my RX8 a couple of times, cat was replaced when the engine was rebuilt, but passed the MOT before that.
The car WAS built to a price, it was 22K when released, the RX7 before was 35K! People forget the RX8 was a bargain when first launched and sold in big numbers.
It got a bad reputation, because it sold to the kind of people who buy Audi TTs these days, most just want to jump in and go and not to have to think about warming up, flooding the engine or checking oil levels once or twice a month.
Undoubtedly, owning an RX8 requires more effort than most cars of a similar age, but you'll be hard pressed to find a car which will seat 4 adults and handle like that. People are sniffy about BHP vs MPG (usually the ones who then say you should buy some V8 supercharger supertanker), but that completely misses the point of the RX8 - That said, the 230 BHP model is hardly slow by the standards of 2003, when it launched (in fact it was damn fast for a £22k car at the time!), but really, the beauty (and one some people just never 'get') of the RX8 is the handling and balance.
One argument against it that the 'never sat in one' experts trot out is that you "can't enjoy the handling at legal" speeds, which is absolute nonsense, it's a pleasure around the slowest of corners, especially if you've come from a FWD car (although it takes a while to adapt if you're rusty with - or have never driven - RWD).
A broken seat is pretty bad, but one bad apple doesn't spoil the barrel - I've never heard of that problem and still reckon the RX8 seats are amongst the best I've ever sat in (certainly the best I've owned)!
I've seen Rolls Royces broken down on the motorway and from the evidence of a recent journey it's clear that Ferrari ABS is useless!
M
Last edited by snowman; 14th November 2017 at 10:17.
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