Were these photos on sellers site photoshopped?

[sandman]

I took delivery of a Speedmaster Reduced and was surprised to see a bit of damage on the bezel that I wasn’t expecting. Don’t get me wrong I wasn’t expecting the watch to be in new condition (it is almost 20 years old) but I studied the sellers pictures closely before buying the watch.
Here are the photos from the sellers site:



And here is a photo I took when I recieved the watch:

Look at the bezel next to the lower pusher. Has the seller edited their photos to hide this damage? If so you would you expect the seller (a well known dealer in Japan) to rectify the situation. I paid over £200 import fees when the watch arrived in the UK so I don’t think a return would be very straight forward.
I have emailed the seller pointing out my concerns and will update the thread when they respond.



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[hughtrimble]

I think the damage is visible in the photos, just favourable lighting is all. Yours does make it look worse, but there clearly is damage shown in the seller's photos. It's why I prefer to do videos now when selling as it reveals the exact same spots at multiple angles and with the light catching any issues.

Any damage you don't expect will always be a real sting. The seller might refund anyway, and a reclaim of your VAT paid is definitely possible. The handling charge by your courier is likely lost though.

[Nansbread1]

Even if he did not use photshop he used very clever lighting to hide the damage very well indeed. It was sly and with the kind of scuff seen in your photo it willbe a legitimate claim imho.

[Jocke]

I took delivery of a Speedmaster Reduced and was surprised to see a bit of damage on the bezel that I wasn’t expecting. Don’t get me wrong I wasn’t expecting the watch to be in new condition (it is almost 20 years old) but I studied the sellers pictures closely before buying the watch.
Here are the photos from the sellers site:



And here is a photo I took when I recieved the watch:

Look at the bezel next to the lower pusher. Has the seller edited their photos to hide this damage? If so you would you expect the seller (a well known dealer in Japan) to rectify the situation. I paid over £200 import fees when the watch arrived in the UK so I don’t think a return would be very straight forward.
I have emailed the seller pointing out my concerns and will update the thread when they respond.



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To me it looks Photoshopped and if it so it's a very stange thing to do in a ad because how will they believe you should not see the damage.
So if thay try to hide it I'm pretty sure thay will say you have done it. It should be very interesting to hear theirs respond.

I hope it will ends in a good way for you. The bezel is replaceable so you can save the watch.

[learningtofly]

I think the damage is visible in the photos, just favourable lighting is all. Yours does make it look worse, but there clearly is damage shown in the seller's photos. It's why I prefer to do videos now when selling as it reveals the exact same spots at multiple angles and with the light catching any issues.

Any damage you don't expect will always be a real sting. The seller might refund anyway, and a reclaim of your VAT paid is definitely possible. The handling charge by your courier is likely lost though.

I disagree. In my opinion there's been a very clear attempt to mask - or at least minimise- the evidence of damage. I'd be asking for a replacement bezel, or a hefty reduction in price to cover the cost of buying and fitting one.

[magirus]

I disagree. In my opinion there's been a very clear attempt to mask - or at least minimise- the evidence of damage.

I agree with this.

[-Ally-]

Who was the seller?

[sandman]

I really don’t want to return the watch as the damage really isn’t noticeable unless you really look for it. It is obvious on a zoomed in photo of course but to be honest I didn’t even notice it until I took the photo above.
I have asked the seller for a partial refund and done so by email and also via PayPal. How much of a partial refund do you think would be fair in this instance? I have suggested £200. I paid £1000 for the watch thinking it was in unmarked condition (than another £200 VAT).
I wasn’t sure about naming the seller as i wasn’t 100% sure if there had been foul play. The responses above aren’t exactly conclusive either.

[Lawbreaker5000]

I think the damage is there on the original picture.

But it's a good job of hiding it.

Nice watch though.

[learningtofly]

Personally I'd say it's pretty conclusive. £200 is probably about right, though.

[Gee252]

You can certainly see the damage in the original photos but nothing like your photo!!
Clearly the photos that were took used the angles of the shots and light to their advantage!!
I would be gutted and certainly be asking for some refund.
Why people cannot just be honest show it how it is then go from there.

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[pacifichrono]

I think it was photoshopped.

[Itsguy]

Try this link. I’m no expert at analysing the results, but my very basic understanding from reading the tutorial is that similar areas should have a similar level of brightness unless something has happened to the photo. There seems to be a hot spot where the bezel issue is.

[Redwolf]

Bit naughty that. Was it written in the description?


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[sandman]

Bit naughty that. Was it written in the description?


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No, no mention of any damage in the description. Unfortunately the watch has been removed from the site.

- - - Updated - - -

I’m just glad I saved the photos from the original listing.

[Redwolf]

Yeah, that’s not on and you have a case for recourse imo.
Good luck with it. It’s a pain but stick to your guns and it should work out.


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[sandman]

Thanks for all the advice. I will definitely update the thread when the seller responds.

[Rob998]

There's definitely something there on the sellers pics, but they've either messed about with the contrast or been very clever with the lighting to ameliorate the damage. Bit naughty IMHO.

[JGJG]

The question isn’t “is this photoshopped?” (To which, by the way, I think the answer might be “no”).

Rather the question is “have these images been manipulated in order to present an image of the item for sale that varies materially from its actual visible condition?” (To which the answer appears to be “yes”).

The means, even if only angles and lighting, aren’t of relevance; the pictures do appear to misrepresent the watch and that is what matters.

[Mn80]

Doesn't look to me like there is any obvious attempt to Photoshop it. It's as I'd expect it to look photographed in a light tent. That much soft light you loose texture and definition to the metal. I've done some stuff like this before for a local Rolex dealer and he actually said the images where to good as some minor marks vanished on some older pieces from the lighting.

But it should have been in the description as it is obvious damage. So that's naughty by the seller.

[ktmog6uk]

if nothing else the damaged should have been clearly stated in the description..

[Der Amf]

The good news is that you paid by PayPal and they will be eager to take your side, seeing the difference between those two photos.

[stelmo01]

It definitely looks poorly photoshopped with either the blur or clone tool - I don't think you could soften that amount of damage with clever lighting. Hope the seller resolves it for you OP.

[paskinner]

I don't understand why a seller would act like this. Obviously, when the buyer gets the watch h he will complain, and quite rightly so. The seller ends up having to offer a refund, and his reputation takes a hit. Doesn't seem to make sense.

[gcleminson]

To my eye the first two pics are probably not edited but a very favourable use of light. The third I have to say looks manipulated. I’ve studied other parts of the bezel (where you’d most likely try to clone from) and can’t see an obvious match though. In any event, £1k for a Speedmaster Reduced with bracelet is a very good price these days. You may get some reimbursement from the seller, but I personally would be tempted to polish out the scuff and begin enjoying my new watch - everything else looks good.

[RBear1981]

Whether photoshopped or a different watch the seller has been dishonest. Given that trust is such an important part of online distant selling - particularly with used watches - I think they’ve committed a cardinal sin. You’d be doing us all a favour by disclosing the name of the company as I sure as hell wouldn’t buy from them.


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[200mwaterresistant]

The seller photos are photoshopped, yes. There is clear evidence of artifacting left over from an amateur attempt to 'draw' and use the spot healing tool over the damaged area.

This is a major part of my job. I can guarantee the area of damage has been worked on, and not subtly.

[verv]

Looks like they've used a spot healing tool in PS. Particularly in 3rd pic.

[jameswrx]

It looks to me like a blemish tool has been used on the pic rather than photoshop cutting and pasting other parts of the bezel.

It reminded me of a photo editor app I have, you just click on the blemish and it sort of smooths it out getting rid of the harsh edges. That’s what it looked like when I first saw it.

[gerard]

I'm not so sure they used a tool to cover it up. Rather just bleached the photo through either saturation slider or added more Fill light.
I have just darkened the image (adjusted shadows/blacks) and the scratches are there.
Admittedly this was cheeky of them.

[walkerwek1958]

Regardless of whether the seller has tried to represent the watch more favourably than he should, you need to consider the options based on what's in front of you. One is ask for a full refund and send the watch back, but that still leaves you looking for a watch. If the rest of the watch is good you could consider having the edge of the bezel refinished or go the whole hog and have a new bezel fitted. Clearly there's expense involved and it's reasonable to expect the seller to reimburse some of the cost. Stinging him for the full cost of a new bezel isn`t realistic, on a 20 yr old watch there's obviously an issue of betterment, but paying around 40-50% of the cost could be deemed reasonable. Refinishing might be feasible, but it's a tricky one and the chances are it wouldn`t be perfect. Without seeing it I couldn`t give an opinion on this, it could certainly be improved significantly but the question is how significantly.

The price you've paid obviously has a bearing, if you've paid strong money for a top example you expect it to be cosmetically good and without this type of damage, but if you've got it at a favourable price you may be cutting off your nose to spite your face by sending it back.

Getting hold of new bezels for these involves using an Omega accredited repairer thesedays, folks like me can`t get them at reasonable prices anymore. I`d expect it to be around £200 plus a small charge for fitting. Factor in postage etc and the cost mounts up, as does the cost of getting it refinished if you chose that.

Only you can make the decision, but I`ve pointed out the way I`d be thinking. It's disappointing when something isn`t as good as you expect and it's frustrating when the pictures have misled you. I`m no expert, but my impression is that he's used bright lighting for the pics and posted pictures that certainly don`t highlight the damage. I`d be surprised if it's deliberately been photoshopped but I`m no expert.

I would definitely be contacting the seller and telling him you're disappointed. If he's reasonable he'll listen to a partial refund but he could easily claim you've damaged the watch and in a dispute situation it becomes your word against his.

Paul

[kevkojak]

I'm very surprised at this. There is almost certainly (ok, definitely!) a level of deception here, but why??? A Speedy reduced for a grand should have sold regardless, especially on bracelet.

Sticks in the throat somewhat but I would just swallow this one. See if it can be polished out, but it's still a cheap Speedmaster.

[gcleminson]

Regardless of whether the seller has tried to represent the watch more favourably than he should, you need to consider the options based on what's in front of you. One is ask for a full refund and send the watch back, but that still leaves you looking for a watch. If the rest of the watch is good you could consider having the edge of the bezel refinished or go the whole hog and have a new bezel fitted. Clearly there's expense involved and it's reasonable to expect the seller to reimburse some of the cost. Stinging him for the full cost of a new bezel isn`t realistic, on a 20 yr old watch there's obviously an issue of betterment, but paying around 40-50% of the cost could be deemed reasonable. Refinishing might be feasible, but it's a tricky one and the chances are it wouldn`t be perfect. Without seeing it I couldn`t give an opinion on this, it could certainly be improved significantly but the question is how significantly.

The price you've paid obviously has a bearing, if you've paid strong money for a top example you expect it to be cosmetically good and without this type of damage, but if you've got it at a favourable price you may be cutting off your nose to spite your face by sending it back.

Getting hold of new bezels for these involves using an Omega accredited repairer thesedays, folks like me can`t get them at reasonable prices anymore. I`d expect it to be around £200 plus a small charge for fitting. Factor in postage etc and the cost mounts up, as does the cost of getting it refinished if you chose that.

Only you can make the decision, but I`ve pointed out the way I`d be thinking. It's disappointing when something isn`t as good as you expect and it's frustrating when the pictures have misled you. I`m no expert, but my impression is that he's used bright lighting for the pics and posted pictures that certainly don`t highlight the damage. I`d be surprised if it's deliberately been photoshopped but I`m no expert.

I would definitely be contacting the seller and telling him you're disappointed. If he's reasonable he'll listen to a partial refund but he could easily claim you've damaged the watch and in a dispute situation it becomes your word against his.

Paul

Paul, I’m curious - would Omega charge more in your experience for a service on these because of the difficulty involved with the added chrono module? I’m asking because if it were me I might be tempted (if I decided to keep it) to just send into Omega for a service.

[gcleminson]

Regardless of whether the seller has tried to represent the watch more favourably than he should, you need to consider the options based on what's in front of you. One is ask for a full refund and send the watch back, but that still leaves you looking for a watch. If the rest of the watch is good you could consider having the edge of the bezel refinished or go the whole hog and have a new bezel fitted. Clearly there's expense involved and it's reasonable to expect the seller to reimburse some of the cost. Stinging him for the full cost of a new bezel isn`t realistic, on a 20 yr old watch there's obviously an issue of betterment, but paying around 40-50% of the cost could be deemed reasonable. Refinishing might be feasible, but it's a tricky one and the chances are it wouldn`t be perfect. Without seeing it I couldn`t give an opinion on this, it could certainly be improved significantly but the question is how significantly.

The price you've paid obviously has a bearing, if you've paid strong money for a top example you expect it to be cosmetically good and without this type of damage, but if you've got it at a favourable price you may be cutting off your nose to spite your face by sending it back.

Getting hold of new bezels for these involves using an Omega accredited repairer thesedays, folks like me can`t get them at reasonable prices anymore. I`d expect it to be around £200 plus a small charge for fitting. Factor in postage etc and the cost mounts up, as does the cost of getting it refinished if you chose that.

Only you can make the decision, but I`ve pointed out the way I`d be thinking. It's disappointing when something isn`t as good as you expect and it's frustrating when the pictures have misled you. I`m no expert, but my impression is that he's used bright lighting for the pics and posted pictures that certainly don`t highlight the damage. I`d be surprised if it's deliberately been photoshopped but I`m no expert.

I would definitely be contacting the seller and telling him you're disappointed. If he's reasonable he'll listen to a partial refund but he could easily claim you've damaged the watch and in a dispute situation it becomes your word against his.

Paul

Paul, I’m curious - would Omega charge more in your experience for a service on these because of the difficulty involved with the added chrono module? I’m asking because if it were me I might be tempted (if I decided to keep it) to just send into Omega for a service, and get the bezel dealt with as part of that.

[sandman]

Just to be clear this isn’t a £1000 speedmaster it became a £1200 speedmaster once it arrived in the uk. It is the 3rd photo I think is photoshopped. I can see how the 1st two could be trick of the light but the 3rd looks more dodgy to my untrained eye.

[timc]

i wonder how the seller thought this would play out?

[Stringer]

Out of interest, is this a commercial seller with other watch sale listings, or is it a one-off, private sale by them?

I ask because, even if they haven't used photoshop (and they may have, even if not to totally remove the damage), the lighting balance is otherwise very weird/unrealistic. If they have other listings for sale using a similar photo set-up then maybe you could give them the benefit of the doubt, but if that's not the case then it's an extremely odd choice which sets alarm bells ringing...

At this stage, I'm inclined to think they've been a little bit naughty, but the damage was still self-evident, so with it being (hopefully) a sound watch otherwise at a good price, I'd probably be inclined to settle for a partial refund to either put towards restoration (or not, there's a few nibbles to other parts of the bezel) or at least help assuage disappointment.

Even if I got the money, I'd be tempted to have a cautious go at smoothing the damage myself at little cost - it won't remove it, but it might soften it enough to blend better with the rest of the bezel, which isn't pristine anyway. That's a tricky & delicate polishing balance though.

[walkerwek1958]

Paul, I’m curious - would Omega charge more in your experience for a service on these because of the difficulty involved with the added chrono module? I’m asking because if it were me I might be tempted (if I decided to keep it) to just send into Omega for a service, and get the bezel dealt with as part of that.

If it goes to Omega they may try to refinish the bezel or recommend a replacement. I’m guessing the price of replacement would be £200, that’s on top of the service. As far as I’m aware Omega don’t charge a premium for servicing these,but I can’t say for certain. They are quite involved to service, the chrono module is totally separate but, contrary to popular myth, tgey aren’t too difficult to work on. I’ve serviced one recently and whilst it was ‘involved’ to say the least, it wasn’t unduly difficult. Lack of spares availability is a problem for repairers, but in most cases the chrono module just needs cleaning and relubricating carefully. The rest of the watch is ETA 2892 with a couple of minor differences ( no date!) so it isn’t rocket science.

I’m not taking any work on at the moment so I can’t offer to get involved on this one, I suggest you contact Brendan ( Webwatchmaker) and see what he could do. Alternatively, try Duncan at Genesis, he’s Omega accredited.

Paul

[sandman]

Well the seller responded to my email with this:



Thank you for contacting us.
Our apologies for the late response, on the weekend we work limited operation.

As you mentioned, there are scratches on the bezel and it can be found in 1st&2nd photos. Please see it in the link below:
https://mall.elady.com/bf315545.html

Our inspection team confirmed there is insignificant scratches on the bezel when they inspected and before shipping, but not bigger scratches as the photo you provided us.
Thank you for your understanding.



So there you have it. They are denying hiding the damage and went as far as to say I caused it myself.
They also responded via PayPal saying I can return the watch for a full refund if I want.


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[davie0146]

to my uneducated eye, it looks like they have played with the original image to mash the extent of the damage.

[stefmcd]

I had a Japanese return on a speedy reduced last summer: a pusher fell off within a week. They immediately offered a a refund (as they have done here).

They offered £50 back if I kept the watch. I just returned it and received a prompt refund. The refund from HM customs took a further 3 months thanks to their administrative incompetence.

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[Bodo]

If you created a case before you got any reply from the seller, that might explain there lack of willingness to help. That money will be on hold whereas you could have allowed them to respond first. Any money on hold for a seller causes some difficulty to deal with and can cause the situation to be a little harder to work out amicably imo. If they don't respond within a few days then that's the time to create a case.

Apologies if that's not what you did, but that's how I've interpretated it. Of course I'm not suggesting the seller is fully justified with their dismissive response, just explaining why it could be worse than it might have been.

I'd say you have at least some silver lining to the situation if they explained in the case you could return it. Because if they have removed the listing and all you have is pictures, PayPal wouldn't have had enough evidence to see how the watch was advertised to side with your claim. They don't take pictures into account. In that situation your case would and should be denied if the seller simply disagreed with your claim. Always save a listing and Web page with screenshots if it's not on eBay or there is a chance it could get removed.

You might want to look into getting your import duty back, but I am not sure if that's possible, but I would make a decision then to return, which will cost another fairly costly sum.

Your watch is slowly turning out to be circa 1400+ pounds at the moment. What is the value of the watch as it is usually and what would it be with a service and new bezel?

[paskinner]

I still struggle with this; as the seller immediately offered a full refund it is difficult to see what they would gain by misleading the OP originally. It doesn't make sense . This is more likely just a poor set of pictures, which has led to the seller losing the sale, and money. No villains here, just the sort of thing that will occasionally happen.

[stefmcd]

I still struggle with this; as the seller immediately offered a full refund it is difficult to see what they would gain by misleading the OP originally. It doesn't make sense . This is more likely just a poor set of pictures, which has led to the seller losing the sale, and money. No villains here, just the sort of thing that will occasionally happen.

I'd say it was a bit fly of the dealer not to clarify the damage. They were counting on the buyer just accepting the cosmetic issue. I guess maybe 6 out of 10 buyers would.

The OP is entitled to his import duty back and the seller will probably pay for return postage, my seller did.

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[sandman]

I still struggle with this; as the seller immediately offered a full refund it is difficult to see what they would gain by misleading the OP originally. It doesn't make sense . This is more likely just a poor set of pictures, which has led to the seller losing the sale, and money. No villains here, just the sort of thing that will occasionally happen.

They have a no questions asked return policy. This is not unique to my purchase. I believe they have photoshopped the photos (at least one of them) and are now claiming I caused the damage. I don’t want to return the item as it will cost a few quid for return postage (which they don’t pay) and it would also take months to reclaim the VAT i paid to customs.



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[paskinner]

But why would they photoshop the watch? What do they gain...it just gets returned. And if they photoshopped that, then presumably they photoshop lots of watches...getting lots of returns and ruining their reputation.
It just doesn't make sense.

[sandman]

But why would they photoshop the watch? What do they gain...it just gets returned. And if they photoshopped that, then presumably they photoshop lots of watches...getting lots of returns and ruining their reputation.
It just doesn't make sense.

I agree. It doesn’t make sense to me either but I believe that’s what they have done (or at the very least hidden the damage with clever lighting).
Perhaps they know that returning goods to Japan is an expensive ball-ache and with customs involved many buyers won’t bother.

For me I will live with the watch. I think I still got a decent deal at £1200 all in which is a couple of hundred less what I could buy one in the UK for. I won’t ever buy from elady again though and will discourage others from doing so too.



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[Evanssprky]

Elady. I've often looked at their watches on ebay, they always have a good selection at good prices. But a Grand Seiko they have on there now has what looks, to me, to be too bright photos, fine details are hard to make out. Pretty much like the photos of your speedy, I'm very cautious now, thanks for the heads up.

[BillN]

photoshopped - a slight clone and heal - not really done a "proper" job so as to leave some damage showing for when you go back and complain

[Estoril-5]

If you did return it and they relisted the item it would be interesting to see how they describe the watch again.

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