Reply With QuoteSounds like a problem his end, you have fulfilled your part of the bargain IMO. BUT......it's a sticky one.
So I sold a watch and posted as usual via RMSD fully insured - what could possibly go wrong?
Watch was apparently signed for in buyer’s name - so far so good. Buyer contacts me the same evening advising that he was out at the time of delivery and hence has no idea about the whereabouts of the watch.
I spoke to Royal Mail the next day and they started an investigation to figure out what had happened. The buyer then informed me he spoke to his postman who admitted having signed for the watch and having left it on the porch in order for the buyer not having to collect it from the post office.
After around a week I spoke to RM yesterday and asked about the outcome of the investigation. RM advised that they concluded the parcel had been successfully delivered and if the addressee disagreed he would have to lodge a complaint and they could not do anything with me from a sender’s perspective.
The buyer has now lodged a complaint but is not happy that he has to now deal with this (apparently the process can take 30 days) and would like a refund.
Given that RM insists that the item was delivered and I have no evidence to the contrary, I somehow feel that refunding the buyer is not a reasonable thing to do given the position I am in.
I would very much appreciate any advice - has anyone been in a similar position?
Many thanks
Sounds like a problem his end, you have fulfilled your part of the bargain IMO. BUT......it's a sticky one.
I think it would be reasonable to ask the buyer to hold fire on any refund until the 30 day process has concluded. I appreciate that still leaves you with an issue unless RM are willing to cough up.
I agree. You’ve done your bit and it really is the buyers problem to take up with the Royal Mail.
Exactly this.Originally Posted by seadog1408
Usually when there come to me I’d informally interview the postman- if this comes as a complaint to the office there will be a manager who has to look into it (locally)
I know it’s a pita but I’d ring customer services and explain that the postman admitted leaving it in the porch-
Either you had another delivery after his or someone was watching him
I’ve had this a few times (don’t know the final outcome) but the guys are honest and the truth is told
I’ve given them a disciplinary- usually it’s the same old story (not saying that’s how it is in your case) ‘customers asked-me to leave it there’- perfectly safe 99.9% of the time
Last edited by lewie; 2nd March 2018 at 19:02.
I'm very surprised the postman admitted to forging the signature. It's clearly his fault. Both you and the buyer got screwed.
Last edited by JP Chestnut; 2nd March 2018 at 19:02.
IIRC 'tis you, the sender, who will invoke the insurance claim and will therefore get the refund.
I would say that is the way to go; invoke the insurance and assure the buyer that on your receipt of the amount reclaimed you will return his purchase price.
Ask RM to provide the signature for a start. Then I expect you'll need a statement from the buyer that it isn't his signature.
The postman is potentially in a huge heap of trouble here - though its' possible he'll deny signing for it when faced with a proper investigation.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the buyer to wait the investigation out.
I think you should do nothing for now ; there is a signature, and not a scrap of evidence that he did not receive the watch. You posted it correctly, the Post Office seems not to believe his account. Why should you?
The idea that a postman would admit improper conduct...a sackable offence...in a chat with a customer is implausible. Wait for the result of the investigation .
Last edited by paskinner; 2nd March 2018 at 19:05.
In my experience (and I’m not saying it’s 100% correct), RMSD parcels are NEVER signed for by the postman and left. If the owner isn’t in then a card is left and proof of address has to be given at collection.
If it was only posted “signed for” then the postman will sometimes sign it himself.
From the above, I’d say that there’s probably more investigation required.
At this point I don’t think I’d be giving a refund unless you sent it “signed for” rather than RMSD.
How can RM insist on the fact that the package was delivered? The postman signed for it himself and (supposedly) left it on the porch?? What kind of brainless nitwit does that?
I've had this once too, when I sent a watch to the UK. Apparently these delivery guys don't care about anything, so this one signed for it himself and left it in front of the door (centre of London). How long do you think it was there for? I think maybe a minute. But I'm more convinced that the guy is now wearing the watch himself.
I refunded the buyer immediately after PostNL declared the package lost. That was 30 days after the so called delivery. I received the money from PostNL two weeks after that.
Agreed. The sender cannot claim since the item is considered as having been delivered. The buyer has a nice postie who may have thought he was helping and who is going to get in trouble for it but it's the only possibility.
The alternative is that watchdude loose a watch through no fault of his own without any mean to recover anything. It is even possible -although the buyer may be perfectly above board- that he actually got the watch and, having not signed for it, claimed he hadn't received it: both scenarii are identical from every actor's point of view bar the buyer who knows which of the 2.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Horrible situation and I fully sympathise with you as IMO you have done everything correct from your point of being the seller. I had a very similar situation once before that thankfully got sorted and since then ‘will only post’ when the buyer confirms they will actually be there in person to collect or I will not send the parcel, full stop!!
I hope this gets sorted but it unless a helpful neighbour has the parcel it seems that someone is going to be out of pocket.
But that's not how it works, the sender is the one with a contract between him and RM. So, he has to file a complaint with RM.
It does happen - but also I think how lightly is it that someone has stolen it from a shut porch??
I’ve had this issue with couriers, where the items have gone missing as they were just left on the floor in an apartment block. My parents usual postman regularly leaves their rmsd items in their garage - so far nothing has gone missing for them.
It's just a matter of time...
More than likely. I know my postie rather well, and he left a 3K watch in my back garden to save me the trouble of picking it up! He wasn't to know and I've since said thanks, but no thanks...
Not your fault. Leave it to the buyer to take up with Royal Mail. As has been said, you've done your bit and there's a signature at the other end. Whose it is, is not up to you find out.
Can’t see how you need to give a refund because RM screwed up.
However any insurance for the package is for you to reclaim. Is there any further recourse to take against them as the postman admitted signing for a RMSD package? Small claims court?
just a thought.
My work postman used to always sign for me and leave the parcel somewhere.
BUT - I asked him to do it if I was out.
I’ve come across this few times- all fine and dandy until something goes wrong - go back to RM
Actually in my view your sale includes safe delivery to the buyer. In this instance you chose RMSD as opposed to DHL, Delivering it yourself, carrier pigeon etc. As you haven't actually completed your end of the bargain (ie watch hasn't been delivered to recipient apparently), and this is because of the delivery party that you chose to use (unless the buyer specifically said use RMSD and I will waive any claims if they cock it up) then if the investigation comes up short you would need to compensate the buyer. That being said if the postie did sign for it then the royal mail team would be able to compare the signature they got with ones they have on file from the postie, or ones they have on file for the buyer. So they should be able to come to a reasonable conclusion.
He casn only claim if RM admitys the parcel was lost. In which case he'll be able to refund the buyer. But it is now (since there is a signature on the delivery) up to the buyer to convince RM that he hasn't received it.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
As far as I understand it, even if you paid for additional insurance, Royal Mail excludes watches and jewellery anyway in the small print.
Only the bueyr needs to get RM to accept it has not been delivered: There is nothing the buyer can do before that.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Yeah. In fairness something did get lifted once but I sucked it up. Take the risk etc.
Anyway.
Sticky wicket since there's a signature.
Surely if the posty signed for it himself then RM are in the wrong. Thats just breaching the contract you have with them on a signed for service.
It might be silly, but far from implausible. It used to happen all of the time at a flat in London with a communal letterbox. I wasn't impressed, so asked him about it when I got to the door to meet him one day, and he said that he was under too much pressure to be able to afford a couple of minutes waiting for a response and then for someone to get downstairs to sign for it. I in no way agree with it, but I could appreciate the position he was in. Occasionally I'd see him still on his rounds late into the afternoon. Many people are more than happy with such a situation as it is often a right pain to find time to get to a delivery office during their brief opening hours. Leaving a signed for parcel on a doorstep for anyone to walk off with is a whole different thing.
My postman signed a RMSD for me on Tuesday of this week. A little different in that I left a note, asking him to leave it in a parcel box by the porch.... But still.... He signed it for me and left the watch at the door, outside.
In hindsight.... A tad foolish on my part given it was worth quite a bit.
Based on the facts given, it would not be right for the seller / sender to issue a refund until compensated by RM, which he will need to initiate. Unless this happens, he doesn’t have a leg to stand on as his package has been delivered and signed for. Blame does however lay squarely with RM.
Exactly. No way should you be refunding, it's RMs problem - there's the potential here for a massive scam. No aspersions being cast in this particular case but, buyer realises it's been signed for by postie, says package has gone awol, ends up with refund (from either you or RM) and the watch too.
Not according to this - https://personal.help.royalmail.com/...lery-in-the-uk
At my old address in Berkshire I had an arrangement with the regular postman for him to sign for RMRD items and leave them in a hidden place. I agreed not to make a fuss if anything went missing. It worked well for years.
RMSD was a step too far for him though and I quite understand why.
Ive never had an RMSD item even left with a neighbour.
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I can only assume RMSD has changed since the last time I used it. I've never had a RMSD package delivered by my postie. It always comes in a post office van.
Maybe it’s different down here in rural Sussex but they tightened up RMSD considerably a couple of years ago.
These days the postman will not sign for the parcel himself if it’s RMSD. Other services are more relaxed.
I see Ryan’s point but I’m not sure that I agree with him although I’m not sure that I disagree with him either!
This seems to have happened a couple of times recently where Watches have gone missing in the post, that's why I always push for a face to face where possible.
I hope you get things sorted Frank, it sounds like the Postie is at fault here, not yourself, I'm sure the buyer will be understanding and give some time to sort this out.
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I'm intrigued that so many people assume the buyer is telling the truth, and the postman lying. Who has most to gain by telling lies? Clearly, the buyer. He stands to gain both watch and money. He has offered no evidence , just a claim that the postman effectively volunteered to sack himself. Really?
This is why I only do face to face.
Last edited by paskinner; 2nd March 2018 at 19:41.
Proof of a signature would be my first line of investigation., then go from there.
So let me get this straight. If you guys here ordered a watch from a high st AD, this included home delivery, and the delivery cocked it up and you didn’t get the watch but they said they had delivered it, you would leave the high st AD well alone and would proceed solely with the courier? Cobblers! You’d be on to the AD head office, getting the credit card company to reverse the charges and so on. It’s the sellers duty to ensure the watch gets to the buyer.
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Fixation sent my camera to my old address by mistake [having previously used my new address as instructed].
UPS signed for it and left it on the step.
I can’t even get the manager to talk to me on the phone,so at the moment I am out of pocket around £4,000.
You would think it was all nice and simple,but they break procedures yet take no responsibility.
My postie refuses to leave any RMSD parcels with neighbours. If you want it you collect from the depot.
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I think that it a bit harsh. An AD is fully insured and has the financial muscle to persue in the courts if necessary. Surely this is a courier fault and they should be liable. Placing the blame on a private individual in these circumstances is unfair. I do however have great sympathy for both parties, its a horrible situation
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This isn't a case of them saying it was delivered though. There is proof of delivery. So slightly different.
As others have said, you have fulfilled your end of the bargain - you've posted it RMSD, and have a tracking ID to the buyers address where the item was signed for, as verified by Royal Mail. What more can you do?
If his postman has forged a signature, then a proper investigation will reveal this to be the case. If the postman hasn't forged it, but the signature represents the buyers name then he may be pulling a fast one. Either way you are under no legal or moral obligation to refund him. If RM insurance pays out on a lost item, then obviously that money should go to the buyer. In a nutshell, sit tight and await the outcome of the investigation, the buyer should be assured that he'll get his money back if what he says happened actually happened.
I leave in an apartment, but I walk weekly to find parcels from Amazon, Hermes, etc at my door.. royal mail tho, always a note to collect.m
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Pretty sure you can see the signature (digitised) on the Royal Mail online track and trace service.
Whenever I send anything (RMSD or Signed For) I always check it's arrived and signed by the buyer (though sometimes it's just a squiggle!)
^ this is exactly my experience. I was fortunate for a time to have a wonderful postman; we had known each other for 30 years, and he was great at leaving SF stuff for me. But when it came to RMSD, no way, it was always carded...
I'm with RyanB
If I BT a large amount of cash for a watch in good faith it is the sellers responsibility to get that to the buyer.
I think the seller is entitled to refund the buyer with the caveat that he gets a copy of the signature on the card and confirms its not his.
When this is in place I as the sender would be happy to refund as I can prove that the buyer had not signed for the item.
That should really be the only onus on the buyer as he has completed his side of the bargain.
In general better to deliver to workplace if possible.
This is a private sale, not a purchase from an AD. And he did do everything he could to ensure the watch got to his buyer - he sent it fully insured via RMSD whereupon RM have confirmed the item was signed for at the buyers address. Short of delivering it himself what else could he do? He can't be held accountable - he certainly shouldn't be issuing any refunds based on the buyers (slightky dubious)bstory that the postman privately admitted to forging a signature. The insurance is there for a reason, a complaint/claim needs to be pursued.
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