will any of the CWC RN homages be remade as Precistas?

[vexingv]

I'm new to these forums and relatively new to watches in general. I came across those "Ray divers" on ebay and some more searching brought me here. Now, I would have already purchased one of those "Ray divers" (and am still considering it) had it not been for some negative reviews about its inconsistent and overall poor build quality. Looking at the PRS-3 and PRS-4 with its excellent build quality and features, I was really disappointed to learn that they were no longer made. From what I've come across, not too many of these Broadarrow models appear on the second-hand market. I love this design and would like to have one; the original CWC and Omega models are unfortunately out of my price range (and lack some of the modern amenities found on the homage models).

I understand the fallout from the Omega fiasco and am wondering whether there are any forthcoming plans for any of the previous Broadarrow CWC RN diver homages (PRS-3, 4, 11) to be remade as Precista models?

Sorry if this question has been asked/addressed before.
Thanks.
-V

[Fschwep]

Looking at the PRS-3 and PRS-4 with its excellent build quality and features, I was really disappointed to learn that they were no longer made. From what I've come across, not too many of these Broadarrow models appear on the second-hand market.
-V

There are two reasons for that. First, there were not that many built and sold, due to the Omega battle. If I remember well the total number was 300 for the 3/4 divided over 150 steel/150 pvd, each abut equally divided again over versions with orange resp. black dials (thus, say 75 of each case/dial combo). Of the mechanical PRS-11, again 300 were made. So they are exceedingly rare, in the case of the PRS-3 or 4 I'd say that having only 75 examples of any version in existence means they are even rarer than Dreadnaughts.
The second reason is that these watches are so good that very few owners are likely to want to get rid of them. Many other models, even superb ones like the DN, seem to change hands fairly often because once someone has 'experienced' them, they are not really worn that often - if only to avoid scratching them. A Broadarrow PRS-3 or -4 is quite a comfortable diver to wear (that mildiver case shape is popular for a reason), and an excellent beater - one can really bash them around a lot and they just won't give. They die hard, or not at all. So us owners (yep, I have a PRS-4 black/black) won't part with them. Sorry... :wink:

Whether Eddie will ever have them made again as Precistas is only for him to tell. Technically, the PRS-18 is very similar: same movement choice, same WR rating, sapphire crystal... but of course no PVD version, no date and a different (in itself interesting and probably comfortable) case shape.
What may give you some hope is the PRS-5 and PRS-10 which are being built now as Precistas, after being sold out as Broadarrows. It indicates that Eddie is not principally set against it; but of course the 5 and 10 were watches with no real equivalent in the existing Precista range (and the PRS-5 did exist as a real Precista, so it has returned to its proper flock).

[Dave E]

I'm pretty sure Eddie has said he's planning to remake some of them as Precistas, timescales unknown.

[Spike]

The second reason is that these watches are so good that very few owners are likely to want to get rid of them....................A Broadarrow PRS-3 or -4 is quite a comfortable diver to wear (that mildiver case shape is popular for a reason), and an excellent beater - one can really bash them around a lot and they just won't give. They die hard, or not at all. So us owners (yep, I have a PRS-4 black/black) won't part with them. Sorry... :wink:

I totally agree, my PRS-3 is my most used, abused and frequently commented on watch.
In a moments madness I almost sold it, and I am so glad I still have it. I have considered a CWC but felt the PRS-3's specification out classed the CWC. I hope a re-edition of it is made before I need to replace mine.

[vexingv]

Well, I really hope there are plans for them to be remade. I just really like the style of these RN divers and am actually considering having a mod made for me using the Seiko SKX031 as the base. However, I just gave away a Citizen eco-drive and would like to have a nice and reliable quartz watch in my collection.

While the PRS-18 is quite similar to the CWC RN divers, it's lack of a date function is really holding me back. I'm also not too fond of the case either.

[swanbourne]

I've accepted a quote to remake them as Precista but initially only steel case, quartz and automatic. Who knows when they will arrive?

It's a bit of a lottery with pricing though, the quote excludes movement and the cost of the movement, at the prevailing price when they are made, is added.

Eddie

[magirus]

Will they have fixed bars?

[swanbourne]

Will they have fixed bars?

Probably not.

Eddie

[Spike]

Will they have fixed bars?

Probably not.

Eddie

My PRS-3 is only ever worn on a Nato strap and its fitted with shoulderless pins, but I would prefer the security of fixed bars. In my humble opinion fixed bars are the only point that the CWC wins on.

[vexingv]

I've accepted a quote to remake them as Precista but initially only steel case, quartz and automatic. Who knows when they will arrive?

It's a bit of a lottery with pricing though, the quote excludes movement and the cost of the movement, at the prevailing price when they are made, is added.

Eddie

Eddie,
That's great to hear! I'm looking forward to it and I guess I'll hold off on that modded Seiko for the time being.

Also, do you plan on making any changes from the original Broadarrow versions or will they remain the same (with the new Precista branding on the dial of course)?

Thanks.

[swanbourne]

I can't recall exactly what we discussed and it isn't detailed on the quote I received but I'm sure it will be 2mm bigger and have a better bezel.

If fixed bars are used, you won't be able to fit a bracelet and a lot of people like a bracelet.

Eddie

[Spike]

I can't recall exactly what we discussed and it isn't detailed on the quote I received but I'm sure it will be 2mm bigger and have a better bezel.

If fixed bars are used, you won't be able to fit a bracelet and a lot of people like a bracelet.

Eddie

That does sound good, for me the improvements compensate for the lack of fixed bars, another one to look forward to :D

[vexingv]

I understand that there can be no concrete date set for when this watch might be available, but I'm not familiar with the watchmaking process or the length of time involved in any of the previous projects. How long did it take for past models to be produced?

I'm essentially trying to gauge how long the wait will be for when this model will be available for sale. As I wait, I also get to watch my US dollars drop in value against foreign currencies...

Anyway, what time frames are we looking at? A couple of months (fall '08?), several months (Q1 '09?), or even more (Q3 '09 or beyond)?

Thanks.

[magirus]

Will they have fixed bars?

Probably not.

Eddie

:cry:

[abraxas]

.......the original CWC and Omega models are unfortunately out of my price range (and lack some of the modern amenities found on the homage models).

.................
-V

Omega?

The original was a 1980s Heuer ...

.................

While the PRS-18 is quite similar to the CWC RN divers, it's lack of a date function is really holding me back. I'm also not too fond of the case either.

What about the 17A (with date)? And much more individualistic with not too many clones of it ... yet.

john

[abraxas]

Will they have fixed bars?

All watches should have fixed bars and the straps and bracelets should be made to work with them.

I know something needs to give before the wrist does but it's ridiculous that something that may be worth thousands (and much more emotionally) is held on by a 1mm of often doubtful quality piece of metal. :evil: :evil: :evil: :(

john

[Seamus]

Will they have fixed bars?

All watches should have fixed bars and the straps and bracelets should be made to work with them.

I know something needs to give before the wrist does but it's ridiculous that something that may be worth thousands (and much more emotionally) is held on by a 1mm of often doubtful quality piece of metal. :evil: :evil: :evil: :(

john

I agree on the doubtful quality metal issue

Does anyone know how much force is needed to pull a springbar from the watch, provided this is a straight pull on the springbar, where it ends up getting bent/broken in the middle and how much is needed to break a fixed bar?

What I am asking is, are there any guidelines here as to how much force these springbars must handle before they fail?

Thomas

Thomas

[swanbourne]

Will they have fixed bars?

All watches should have fixed bars and the straps and bracelets should be made to work with them.

I know something needs to give before the wrist does but it's ridiculous that something that may be worth thousands (and much more emotionally) is held on by a 1mm of often doubtful quality piece of metal. :evil: :evil: :evil: :(

john

I agree on the doubtful quality metal issue

Does anyone know how much force is needed to pull a springbar from the watch, provided this is a straight pull on the springbar, where it ends up getting bent/broken in the middle and how much is needed to break a fixed bar?

What I am asking is, are there any guidelines here as to how much force these springbars must handle before they fail?

Thomas

Thomas

I can't give a measurement but the last time my nephew called to have his bracelet re-attached to his watch he told me it happened "when some fat bitch fell downstairs and pulled it off my wrist". Perhaps this will give you some idea of the force required.

Eddie

[Seamus]

Will they have fixed bars?

All watches should have fixed bars and the straps and bracelets should be made to work with them.

I know something needs to give before the wrist does but it's ridiculous that something that may be worth thousands (and much more emotionally) is held on by a 1mm of often doubtful quality piece of metal. :evil: :evil: :evil: :(

john

I agree on the doubtful quality metal issue

Does anyone know how much force is needed to pull a springbar from the watch, provided this is a straight pull on the springbar, where it ends up getting bent/broken in the middle and how much is needed to break a fixed bar?

What I am asking is, are there any guidelines here as to how much force these springbars must handle before they fail?

Thomas

Thomas

I can't give a measurement but the last time my nephew called to have his bracelet re-attached to his watch he told me it happened "when some fat bitch fell downstairs and pulled it off my wrist". Perhaps this will give you some idea of the force required.

Eddie

:lol: :lol: I does, lukily I've always shyed away from fat bitches :D

Thomas

[vexingv]

john/abraxas,
I actually was considering the 17Q as the PRS-18 didn't have a date. The only thing was that it's a bit smaller (37mm) than I'd like and I still wanted a watch with that "classic" CWC/Omega/Heuer look. Regarding Heuer, I thought that the CWC watches were the inspiration for these watches with Omega supplying similar looking models (SM 300M) to the British military in the 60's.

Regarding fixed bars vs spring bar, don't these and many Precista watches have drilled lugs? If so, shoulder-less springbars (similar to those Seiko "fat" springbars) can be an alternate medium as they're more secure than shouldered bars and still allow for strap changes via the drilled lugs.

I never removed the bracelet, but I had a Citizen eco drive that seemed to use a pin/collar attachment setup instead of springbars. However, that made the lugs themselves quite wide and the space between the lugs quite small (~14mm).

[abraxas]

..... Regarding Heuer, I thought that the CWC watches were the inspiration for these watches with Omega supplying similar looking models (SM 300M) to the British military in the 60's............

This is an early model, possibly French.

Regarding Heuer and CWC ... you've got it back to front. The Heuer diver was never an issued watch in the UK just provided the inspiration. The Omega SM300 has a completely different case.

Plow into this:

Notes on British Military watch issues (post WWII)
http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=18424

john

[Spike]

I can't give a measurement but the last time my nephew called to have his bracelet re-attached to his watch he told me it happened "when some fat bitch fell downstairs and pulled it off my wrist". Perhaps this will give you some idea of the force required.

Eddie

:laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5:
I do like the scientific approach, I caught my Prs3 recently (no fat bitch in sight) and the spring bar split at the end, kind of evidenced the security a nato strap gives you.

[abraxas]

..............

:laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5:
I do like the scientific approach, I caught my Prs3 recently (no fat bitch in sight) and the spring bar split at the end, kind of evidenced the security a nato strap gives you.

In Italy a few years back thieves used to 'yank' watches off tourist's wrists and speed off on scooter.

A yank is different to a pull ... you put 3 fingers behind the head at 9 and yank down hard ... I'd say nine out ten watches would come off. :(

We need a yank-off scale. Seriously.

john

[Spike]

A yank is different to a pull ... you put 3 fingers behind the head at 9 and yank down hard ... I'd say nine out ten watches would come off. :(

We need a yank-off scale. Seriously.

john

Very very funny. How quickly can a topic change!

[Timmypig]

... but I'm sure it will be 2mm bigger ...

I've just checked an archived copy of the old Broadarrow page of the Timefactors site. The PRS-3 & -4 were:

"39 mm across the bezel, 45 mm across the case to the tip of the protected crown, 47 mm lug tip to tip and 11.45 mm thick. Lug spacing is 20 mm."

That's already a pretty big watch. Eddie what's behind the increase in size of the proposed PRS-3 replacement?

BTW I'm still kicking myself for not buying one when I could. Will have to keep monitoring 'Sales Corner' .....

[swanbourne]

... but I'm sure it will be 2mm bigger ...

I've just checked an archived copy of the old Broadarrow page of the Timefactors site. The PRS-3 & -4 were:

"39 mm across the bezel, 45 mm across the case to the tip of the protected crown, 47 mm lug tip to tip and 11.45 mm thick. Lug spacing is 20 mm."

That's already a pretty big watch. Eddie what's behind the increase in size of the proposed PRS-3 replacement?

BTW I'm still kicking myself for not buying one when I could. Will have to keep monitoring 'Sales Corner' .....

To get more visible dial area and an improved bezel.

Eddie

[Nalu]

I've had two watches fall off due to springbar failure. I lost my Tissot Seastar 1000 whilst donning my body armor (~15-20 kilos)during a rocket attack and I lost my PRS-14 when it caught on the shoulder strap of my SCUBA rig (~30 kilos). Neither watch sustained any significant damage other than the lost springbar. The PRS-14 gained fixed bars via superglue after that episode.

I've also heard of folks losing a watch on a rubber strap unders stress when the rubber strap retracts the springbar due to it's grip on the metal.

[abraxas]

I've had two watches fall off due to springbar failure.

................

I lost a watch the very next day after I bought it when I was around 15. It was only £6 but in that time and place that was a week's wages. Broke my heart. :(

Life's a process of learning to live with dissapointment. :lol:

................

I've also heard of folks losing a watch on a rubber strap unders stress when the rubber strap retracts the springbar due to it's grip on the metal.

Most springbars 'with' shoulders when coupled to 'soft' leather are under the possibility of getting 'gripped' and pulled out. Shoulderless is the only way to go.

I like the method where a pin is screwed onto the lug ... but most people tend to mess up the screw heads.



Counter-sunk bolt heads are best from an engineering viewpoint, but look nuff .... or do they?

john

[vexingv]

...I lost a watch the very next day after I bought it when I was around 15. It was only £6 but in that time and place that was a week's wages. Broke my heart. :(

I had a watch for about a week (the Seiko 5 flieger actually) and the springbars would pop out when putting on a jacket on as watch head caught on to some materials. Another time, the watch fell off my wrist completely when I flexed my wrist (partially my fault as it may have been on too tightly).

Afterwards, I ordered a Zulu band. Nato/Zulu bands are so great. They may not look elegant, but for "tool" watches these bands will prevent lost/damage resulting from springbar failures. (I'd also like to see someone try to yank my watch off since they'll be yanking at the nylon band itself.) I find nylon straps to be super comfortable and I don't have to worry about damage like I would with a SS bracelet or nice leather.

Btw, did the old PRS-3 have drilled lugs? [If not, will the new one have them?]

[Spike]

Btw, did the old PRS-3 have drilled lugs? [If not, will the new one have them?]

No it didn't, I can't comment on the new one.

[Fschwep]

True, drilled lugs and shoulderless springbars are the most important improvement one could really make to the original PRS-3/4. I broke off a springbar when I banged mine into the corner of a balloon burner frame while I was rigging it. The NATO strap saved the watch, but I had to take it off for the flight (and switched to a backup watch I always carry). As far as the case is concerned, I guess the lugs could be just a mm or so longer, as the space between case and bars is not generous if you want to pass through a thicker type of one-piece strap (leather or rubber NATO). Personally I don't think the dial or bezel need to be bigger than they are in the BA - legibility is already fabulous.

[swanbourne]

I can take this as far as you guys want, ceramic bezel, fixed bars, screwed tube instead of pressed tube for the crown, etc, etc. The question is, will it please everyone and will you be prepared to pay for it?

Eddie

[Spike]

I can take this as far as you guys want, ceramic bezel, fixed bars, screwed tube instead of pressed tube for the crown, etc, etc. The question is, will it please everyone and will you be prepared to pay for it?

Eddie

I'd settle just for the fixed bars, but as already said the improvements you have listed will compensate for their absence :wink:

[Steven]

that's great news. PRS-3 was a great watch but the dial was pretty small. I think this was in large part due to the wide spacer between the edge of the dial and the edge of crystal. in any case a larger dial is always good.
As for spring bars popping out, I can't imagine what sort of blunt force it would take to make a fresh, CORRECTLY sized(so many people use spring bars that are too small for the lug width), thick spring bar pop out. It would probably be simple and inexpensive solution to widen the spring bar hole to accept Seiko thick diver spring bars, but then you would not be able to use those with a bracelet . if you did put a bracelet on and use thinner spring bars, they would not be as secure in an enlarged hole.
Will the lug width be 22mm or 20mm ?
thanks.

[vexingv]

I've accepted a quote to remake them as Precista but initially only steel case, quartz and automatic. Who knows when they will arrive?

I can take this as far as you guys want, ceramic bezel, fixed bars, screwed tube instead of pressed tube for the crown, etc, etc. The question is, will it please everyone and will you be prepared to pay for it?

Eddie

I'm a little confused, earlier you had mentioned that you had accepted a quote for the watch to be made; I thought that essentially meant that the watches were on order and to begin production by the manufacturer? As such, wouldn't the watch specs need to be finalized for the manufacturer to begin production?

You're right, it really will be hard to please everyone and it still needs to be affordable.

[swanbourne]

I've accepted a quote for the specification submitted, I'm holding back on ordering the watches for a little while longer because I don't want too many arriving in a comparatively short period of time. The spec can be changed any time.

Eddie

[Engi]

I can't recall exactly what we discussed and it isn't detailed on the quote I received but I'm sure it will be 2mm bigger and have a better bezel.

If fixed bars are used, you won't be able to fit a bracelet and a lot of people like a bracelet.

Eddie

[Michael A]

Would somebody care to explain how a shoulderless pin is more secure (or rather less insecure) than one with collars? To my mind, there seems to be only about 1.5mm of pin in the lug regardless, whether the pin is contracted from the end or the side. :?

Pending such an explanation, I would support fixed lugs for this model.

[abraxas]

Would somebody care to explain how a shoulderless pin is more secure (or rather less insecure) than one with collars? To my mind, there seems to be only about 1.5mm of pin in the lug regardless, whether the pin is contracted from the end or the side. :?

Pending such an explanation, I would support fixed lugs for this model.

Shoulderless bars do not have the serrations* for a strap to grip against and pull-away.

*I used the word serrations for the part where you put the knife against to remove the pins.

john

[lysanderxiii]

ISO 6425 listed the required strength for straps (and by association, the pins) of diver's watches at 200 N, or 45 pounds.

There is no specified minimum strength for pins as independent items, which is why there is such a wide array of quality ranging from very poor to rather good, and material from pot metal to stainless steel.

If you want to get the strongest pin and cannot use fixed bars, get single shouldered pins with the tube portion the same length as the distance between the lugs.

When the collared or flanged spring bar, is used with cloth,or tape straps the cloth will conform the the flanges and grip them. Now, any side load on the strap will deform the strap in the direction of the load pulling the strap away from the opposite lug, when the strap pulls away it takes the flange with it, thus releasing the pin.

Some people like to use straps wider than the lug width t reduce the probability of this occurring.

[Michael A]

Thanks for that explanation.

Eddie, is it possible that a quartz PVD Precista diver might have day as well as date, like the CWC SBS one? If so, would it still have a 10 year battery life? Not a big point, just wondering. Otherwise the 715Li (black date wheel) would be fine.

[lysanderxiii]

Thanks for that explanation.

Eddie, is it possible that a quartz PVD Precista diver might have day as well as date, like the CWC SBS one? If so, would it still have a 10 year battery life? Not a big point, just wondering. Otherwise the 715Li (black date wheel) would be fine.

The Ronda 715 is not available with a day display, lithium or silver oxide battery.

I can't recall ever seeing a lithium battery analog watch with a day display.

[vexingv]

Thanks for that explanation.

Eddie, is it possible that a quartz PVD Precista diver might have day as well as date, like the CWC SBS one? If so, would it still have a 10 year battery life? Not a big point, just wondering. Otherwise the 715Li (black date wheel) would be fine.

The Ronda 715 is not available with a day display, lithium or silver oxide battery.

I can't recall ever seeing a lithium battery analog watch with a day display.

This ronda model definitely has a lithium battery. I believe it is the ronda 715Li, which is why it has a rated battery life of nearly 10 years. Looking at the movement on the website, it doesn't seem to have a day wheel and I'm not sure if one could be easily added. As an homage to the older CWC RN divers, did those watches have day displays? I would absolutely love a day display as well as the date.