Reply With QuoteSorry to hear. I've used Newall BMW who are an independent located opposite the new Sytner. They've always been good in the past but the worst issue I've had addressed is a dual mass flywheel.
Afternoon all,
Driving my e63 M6 yesterday and got an engine management light. Immediately pulled over and turned it off. Felt as if it was running on 9 rather than 10 cylinders.
Recovered to main dealer who have checked the obvious, i.e. coil pack, plug, ionic module. Got a lack of compression in cylinder 5.
Put a scope down the bore and saw oil in the cylinder.
They're thinking the head needs to come off and are now weighing up if the engine needs to come out to facilitate this.
Possibilities include a snapped valve spring (not uncommon) or worst case piston rings that have gone, scored the bore and toasted the block. I think replacements are circa £15k so that won't be happening.
I have a limited non-BMW warranty that will pay a contribution towards labour and all parts once diagnostics are complete. Problem is that diagnostics are going to involve potential removal and strip down of engine...
I have some outstanding finance of about £9k on the car.
Looks like my options are:
1) Breathe deeply and absorb the costs
2) Find an independent and trailer the car there for further investigations (I'm in Sheffield if anyone knows a good engine specialist)
3) Part it out or sell for scrap and try and cut my losses
Usually I am fairly decisive but I am genuinely at a loss to decide what to do next. My wife is sharpening the hatchet as we speak.
Any ideas, recommendations, etc as to what to do???
Sorry to hear. I've used Newall BMW who are an independent located opposite the new Sytner. They've always been good in the past but the worst issue I've had addressed is a dual mass flywheel.
I know a guy who's 760i lunched itself recently and BMW wanted 12k to fix it, he got a BMW specilaist to do it for 7k
I would say get it to an independent asap
Ouch!
What sort of mileage & age, and does it have FBMW service history? Might be some good will there.
Having just typed that, I remember reading 10cylinders to 9, so clearly the V10 one. Might be a long shot for good will, but you never know!
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Have a look on a regional pistonheads thread for a good BMW garage in your area
Have the carried out a leak-down test?
this would give a much better indication of what the problem is.
its a long way away from you but a great local-to-me independant called Brystone are always worth talking to
I've seen more than one v10 engine in bits there, so pretty sure they're conversant
what about a used engine out of a written off car?
I'd do some research to establish whether this is down to a known issue with the engine, and cast the net wide.
My old Audi A4 developed an engine problem when older than warranty age but within warranty mileage, and the fix was an engine-out partial rebuild including pistons and rings, costing over £4,000.
I researched it online and found out that it was down to a known piston ring issue affecting a large batch of the engines worldwide. Audi were evidently accepting it as a manufacturing fault and fixing it for free in several countries, so I took it up with Audi UK direct after my local dealer diagnosed the problem.
They initially refused to help, but with the assistance of someone in the UK with whom I connected via Pistonheads, who had had the fix carried out free of charge outside of his warranty period, I persevered for a couple of months, and escalated it by emailing their CEO direct.
Audi UK finally agreed to pick up the cost of the fix at my local dealership, and shortly after that the fault was featured on BBC Watchdog, and Audi caved in, saying they would offer the fix to all those affected.
Sorry to hear of your problem, and good luck.
Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act might be your friend in this instance if there’s the remote possibility it’s a manufacturing fault.
Sorry to hear of your woes.
A good independent will probably save a few £k, but obviously make sure they come recommended.
Dropped a cylinder? Reminds me of my uncle Arthur. As a kid, I remember him buying an Armstrong Siddeley, really, really posh at the time. He got it for next to nothing, was dead chuffed, even though it ran as lumpy as f**k.
As a mechanic, he wasn't particularly bothered about the poor running, and reconed he'd easily fix it.
Turned out that one of the cylinders had grenaded itself, and the owner at the time fixed it by removing the piston, con rod and valves on the offending cylinder.
I would definitely see about recovering the car and in the meantime researching a well respected independent.
Dealers have a knack of investigating issues like this by the book and running up hideous labour charges in the process, rather than going on experience and familiarity with common issues. It’s possible you might be able to find a specialist who has encountered this sort of problem before and who won’t need to sting you on a lengthy and expensive tear down of the motor to assess the fault.
I know conrod bearings are a common weakness on these engines, so wondering if that could somehow be related.
Or fit an engine from an insurance right off.Originally Posted by chicaneuk
This ⬆️⬆️⬆️ Would be my approach.
Bit of a bummer that ,I’d be looking for a specialist,main dealers don’t want to fix problems these days,they just want to replace items that could probably be fixed.
There’s probably not too many proper mechanics at main dealers who could strip it and put it back together,independents the way to go ,sorry don’t know any,I’d get on Bmw forum.
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Ironically, the ads on the website showed an ad for a Skoda next to the thread starter text...
I think that Dutch a GB BMW dealers act the same... never looking for the cheapest option and I'm not really impressed by their skills vs hour rates. Here: 120 euros/hr. I expect top-notch work. Given the prices & hour rates here in our own workshop working on Jaguars etc, I'm afraid that BMW's 15k is a very conservative estimation... When we restore a Jag V12, the bill is already above 15k these days!
What the others said: I would go out and find myself an Indy or BMW Specialist with a good rep. 'Second Opinion' is the main message here.
Menno
Another vote for the specialist - main dealers pretty much follow franchise/factory protocols.
This (may) need a bit more flexibility and understanding.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Always worth going onto the beemer forums for stuff like this.
Likely it will have happened to someone else and the advice will be invaluable in a case like this.
Plenty of mechanics on M3 cutters for starters.
Unless you have some "attachment" to the car, it's just a financial calculation
A few simple questions - accurate figures, or maybe estimates will do, depending on the value involved
How much will the car be worth if repaired?
How much will an indie report cost to ascertain the true damage and cost to repair the engine ........ what range of £'s
How much can the car be sold for now "as is"
(clearly, from what you have indicated, NOT a job for a BMW Main Dealer)
You have my sympathies - (expensive) cars and the cost of running them - never pleasant when they stop working
There is probably also a Facebook Forum that may be able to help
Last edited by BillN; 31st October 2018 at 23:06.
This would be the best option. The issue you have is the labour to carry out the diagnosis & once the engine is removed you the have further labour for the repair. Once you factor in parts, the time off road, potential hire car costs etc, the choice, the most financially sound choice is staring you in the face.
Of course, this is if you want to repair, either way, not gonna be a nice experience.
M Series donks sell for stupid ££££'s
You fit, and keep fingers crossed.
Could fail early, and you're back to square one.
If it's a top end failure, suck it up, and just go for it.
If the block's shot...sell it.
If you decided to go the indy route, Darren Wood near Stockport is excellent. Not exactly local to you but they are a great outfit.
One option might be to call all of the specialists noted above and talk through the situation, because if there's unanimity then you'd have a better view on options from here. And agree with fora point as well. Clearly you will get outliers, but if you find a few folk with very similar stories and they all have the same cause, then that would be useful too. Realistically getting better informed at no cost feels like a sensible objective. Good luck, anyway.
Tough situation. First thing I would recommend is don't rush into decision, get 2nd, third and fourth opinions then sit down and work things out.
Unfortunately, you won't be the first person this has happened to so take solace in that there is a route of action but you need to figure out what is feasible.
IIRC Evo did a M6 buying guide, maybe some good indie's recommended in there as a starting point for a phone call.
Definitely go to an Indie as a main dealer will naturally steer you towards a new engine and charge a hideous amount for the diagnosis.
It is a significant decision so better to pay a bit more ££ to get it transported to an Indie that 100% knows their stuff than get too hung up on somebody local.
As others have suggested, get signed up on as many relevant car forums as you can and post for advice. This is your best bet for highlighting some known issues as well as recommendations of where to go for inspection.
Make sure you get a good dialogue going with your warranty provider and that they are happy with your approach. It might only be a contribution but you need to do everything you can to avoid them trying to wriggle out of settling any claim that may come out of this so for instance they may have their own specific requirements over garages.
Good luck!
its not been answered (post 6) but the first thing anyone who knows what they are doing is going to ask is has a leak-down test been carried out? this will give an indication of engine condition and provide most likely failure analysis.
Sorry to hear that. Definitely independent should be the way to go with an issue like this. Main dealer are usually inflexible and may end up saying you need a new engine! Keep us updated and good luck.
Lack of compression is pretty damning evidence that there’s a problem! Can’t see what a leakdown test would add unless the compression’s marginally down.
Is there virtually a total lack of compression, is the compression significantly lower than the rest, or is it slightly down? If a piston ring was broken surely the compression would be down, but not by a massive amount? A valve problem or simply a blown head gasket would be likely explanations IMO, why would a ring suddenley decide to break?
I’d expect the local BMW indy is the best bet. Also, I’d talk to the BMW dealer who’s tested the car initially and find out exactly what they’ve done ( compression figures etc, explanation of the fault codes flagged up). The more info they can provide the better, talk to their service manager and get him to discuss exactly what they’ve found and convince yourself their thinking us logical......this might not be the case.
Head’s got to come off, that should reveal what’s wrong. Hopefully the problem can be solved without delving deeper. I think the ‘piston ring’ theory is unlikely, when I’ve taken engines apart to address low compression problems the answer has always been gasket or valve- related and that seems far more likely to me.
Last edited by walkerwek1958; 1st November 2018 at 11:21.
Another vote for indie garage here! Best of luck getting it sorted
https://www.evo.co.uk/bmw/m6/19805/b...d-buying-guide
In essence, the iconic M6 V10 is a bitter sweet product that offers outstanding performance and harmonises a pure sound of beauty, though in its later years has developed some major problems. Munich Legends’ Stuart Draper informed us that even cars with around 70,000 to 80,000 miles on the clock will most likely end up with dropped valves or a valve spring failure which will result in the need for a rebuilt cylinder bank, putting you back £3k to £4k. In addition to this, the higher mileage cars tend to acquire Bottom-end failures which damage the cranks from picking up and spinning bearing shells. Just this could require a new engine.
A leak-down test is the best way and only way of quickly diagnosing if it is a top or bottom end fault, therefore giving the technician and the customer at least a ball park indication of the costs and work involved. lack of compression could be several simple top end faults, stuck or bent valve, spring or retainer issue, damaged spark plug, head gasket. or Bottom end faults like broken rings, cracked piston, cracked block. in the paddock it is the fastest way to determine if to fix or change an engine.
Having read around on forums, I'm not sure that would be the best route. Given how notorious these engines are, even ones with an impeccable service history and a clean bill of health, can go from working perfectly to scrap in no time at all. If I was determined to keep the car, I'd want the motor rebuilding by a specialist with good quality / improved parts rather than taking the risk of an engine from a scrapper.
Full engine ( professional ) rebuild on the car in question is around the £10k mark. There is the issue that the op may not even be able to sorce an engine in the first place. Might be worth giving these guys a call, they are in your area & also buy broken cars.
http://www.quarrymotors.co.uk/BMWEngines.aspx
Thanks everyone for the advice.
Dealer wanted something like £3k to take the head off which I have politely declined.
Sometimes the answer is closer to home. After ringing round local independents who all drew air over teeth at the very mention of the S85, I remembered a colleague who I trained with whose husband is a BMW independent near Manchester.
Gave him a ring and he had a S85 on the bench as we were speaking. Has experienced several snapped valve springs on these before and I'm hoping it's that.
Going to get the car recovered over to him and take it from there. I'll keep the thread updated.
Does that mean you won't have to sleep on the settee now John :-)
Good luck and glad you've found someone who sounds well placed to give you honest advice
There's a company on Warren Street near Norfolk Bridge that specialises in high end car repairs. I'm working in that area tomorrow so could get their number for you
^^^^ this ^^^^
If he’s familiair with the problem, it’s worth taking tons of pics if you want to make a case against BMW.
Small update after reading this thread during the coffee break at the workshop this morning.
First reaction: "...coil". But you had that checked. Oil in the cylinder: "... not good!" 3k alone for lifting the head: "... daylight robbery!" Plan to contact an Indy: "... perfect!" Check Engine Light came on: "... is there a computer read-out available?"
Having said that, did you see for yourself the oil on top of the cylinder/piston and did you see the lack of compression or did you took the dealer's word for it? According to the mechanics in the shop, in more than 90% of all cases like this, the coil collapses. And since you were 'generously offered... a head-lift at the cost of 3K' it would be interesting to hear from the Indy if it's really a mechanical problem inside...
In short: it would be wise not to assume anything as 'that has been tested and ruled out!' Let the Indy start all over again!
Menno
Last edited by thieuster; 2nd November 2018 at 15:07.
^ wise words, a VW main dealer diagnosed a flickering headlight as my Zenon control unit being faulty and wanted about £500 to replace it. My Independent garage fitted a new bulb for £20 and it was fine. ( there’s a bit more to the story but that’s basically it)
Cheers..
Jase
In my experience, and it gets stronger year after year, Main Dealers aren't interested in repairing things. They just want to plug in a diagnostic computer and then have a stab at replacing ANYTHING that seems vaguely connected to the problem.
No attempt to find the failed part, or heavens forbid, repair it...
It's a fundamental divergence from "let's track down what's wrong and take it back to function"
It's "who cares which bit is wrong, let's just try random, expensive guesses until we eventually fit the correct new part"
So, a knowledgeable engine builder is what you need. There's a Porsche one on Bolton.
What The Doc says above, dealers these days are nothing more than part swappers who when confused reach out to head office for advice on which part to try replacing next. On the BMW andVW forums there are some really costly repairs as the swap monkeys begin this dumb process each time handing the car back asking for a thank you and money.
Hi John
A few common things on the s85 engine:
Throttle actuators
Shell bearings
It’s very possible that the issue you’re describing in shell bearings (which may in turn have caused the piston to score the bore).
I’m not sure if any mechanics on here know if you could check the shell bearing by dropping the sump?
I'm still hoping for a broken valve spring as this is also a common fault.
If the bore is scored then I'm done.
HI John,
How old is the car ?How many miles has it done?
Brian
It’s an ‘06 car with 82k Brian.
It’s got all the risk factors for it to be a valve spring.
Yes that seems to be the right sort of timing.
Bit of a blow :-( Good luck with the search for a good indie in your area
Relatively good news!
Broken valve spring as suspected but luckily the valve didn’t drop into the cylinder. The bill would have been prohibitive had it done so.
Plan is to drop the engine and replace the spring. Whilst it’s out we’re going to do the preventative job of replacing the con rod bearing shells and I suspect the clutch was getting near the end so that will get swapped as well.
Hopefully I’ll be back on the road blowing everyone away once more next week.
Good news!
How much to change all the springs for piece of mind? They've all done the same amount of cycles.
Given what it could have been, very lucky & very happy for you.
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