Is it not a 5100 with the day and 24 hour display removed?
Hello. I recently acquired vintage Alpina Startimer automatic sea-strong (yes, full name on the dial) with Lemania 1340 chrono movement. The watch is from 70's. I found out that this legendary movement was followed by Lemania 5100 and that even was used in some Omega models.
Does anyone know more? I am very curious about this...
Tnx
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Is it not a 5100 with the day and 24 hour display removed?
5100 was successor, inside is 1340 Lemania (that is what I was told by my colleague and friend, I have no reason to doubt that)
Hope this helps..
http://www.chronomaddox.com/omega/ar...s/georges.html
Wow! Tnx for that...a good choice then
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This movement, when used in 70s Omega chronograph was marked up as the Omega Cal 1040.
Last edited by colin t; 18th September 2019 at 17:34.
Some more information here on the Lemania 1340 , Omega cal 1040.
https://journal.hautehorlogerie.org/...s-chronograph/
Your watch is a beauty . They also did the other panda version which I think is stunning .
Last edited by Tazmo61; 18th September 2019 at 17:37.
Anyone with the same watch or panda dial feel free to post a few pics
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The 1340 is Lemania's haute horologie version of the 5100, pre-dating it (in terms of release) by only 4 years, meaning that the poor old 1340 was probably planned to be obsolete as soon as it was released, as the 5100 would have already been in development.
It's slight foible is that it is clear that the winding does not disengage when the crown in withdrawn to the first setting detente position. This is also true of the 1341 (Tissot only) and 1343 (Regatta Timer) versions.
It was also used by Sinn in their chronos before they moved onto the 5100, but being all steel, the movement was quite expensive.
Georges' article on the ChronoMaddox site doesn't quite finish the story either, because the 1340 is also the base for the Breguet Type XXI (and XXII) movements, as Breguet inherited the Lemania factory when the Swatch Group decided to re-establish Breguet as a manufacture (and kill Lemania at the same time).
So your Alpina has some very posh relatives.....
Dave
The Breguet cal 582 .
https://monochrome-watches.com/bregu...5-years-wrist/
Tnx for explanation. Can you explain the crown possible problem once again (I am not a native english speaker...)? I wind it up (clockwise) when is fully locked in last position. First position is date change, second is time change (no hacking)
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Wrist time non stop
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It is a great strap, I ordered through aliexpress, very good quality. Link:
HRK 109.12 11%OFF | nylon watch strap 18mm 20mm 22mm 24mm canvas strap +Rubber sole leather strap with stainless steel buckle free shipping
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/nrtNxdF6
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Isn’t this the same as a Sinn 140?
Last edited by martyloveswatches; 21st September 2019 at 14:42.
Well, I found all of this in the last few days, so I am quite new here myself
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Sorry, none of that is true.
Sinn's own website claims the foundation of the Sinn company in 1961.
And here is an early Sinn 140 using the Lemania 1340.
And here is another with Sinn's rather wierd Doppelzeiger for Zulu and Zulu+1 time
Dave
I was reffering to Sinn 140 which was stated in the post earlier. Sinn 140 was introduced in 1985. Right?
Dont know for other models you posted.
This pilot watches design with inner rotating bezel, turtle case, dial layout can be seen in Sinn, Alpina, Lemania, ... from that era
I dont know who introduced it first, but would be nice to know
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Am I imagining it or did they do a Malboro dial version of this?
Seems like it...
But hey, 45 yrs and ticking and looking like this...pretty great IMO
Those are Sinn 140s. Internal bezel? Check. Pilot watch? Check
The 1985 date is when that model was flown into space, and Sinn (falsely) claimed it was the first automatic chronograph in space (an honour that we now know went to the Seiko Pogue).
Furrer wore a 140 (S) - a black one, and 7 years later Flade wore a 142(S) with the 5100 movement.
There is also a version with a Lemania dial...
It is very difficult to say who came up with the design and the idea first.
At the time you need to remember that brands shopped components from the same suppliers and put their brand on the dial.
The Autavia 2446c shares the same case and movement as the sinn 103a and the jlc shark. Breguet xx also used the same case with a valjoux 23 for their xx and dugena also used the case with a Calibre 12 in it. Walkman also used the same case from base metal with a valjoux 7733, 7734 and 23 in it...
So I guess you should be looking for the company that started manufacturing that case shape at the time...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, I did get a lot of info so tnx to everybody
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Well, after researching now I am not sure whether I have a 1340 or 1341 Lemania movement. I should open the backacase and then see. Probably when service time is met
Edit: it is 1341
Last edited by martyloveswatches; 22nd September 2019 at 21:29.
Sinn did not start by making watches from a blank sheet of paper. Far from it.
He used bought in designs, he copied other people's designs, he amalgamated designs to create new ones (for example the 156 is the illegitimate child of the Heuer Bund and the Porsche Design Bund).
The 140 Case was bought in from a third party, who also sold it to many others - Alpina, Lemania, Marlboro, Sicura, Rodania, Richard, Rotary and VIP are the ones I have notes on.
It fits the 1340 movement, and was designed for that, but Lemania was very specific about keepping its movements the same dimensions, so the 5100 just slots right in (much like the Omega 1861 manual wind chronographs fit into cases made for the earlier 321 movement generation).
So the case existed in the early 1970s, and was made all the way until the 140 was killed off by Sinn. By the end Sinn themselves were probably making it, having bought the design, but it wasn't to begin with.
Here is my own example of this case, a Lemania slate blue dial, with a 5100 and French Day wheel inside.
It is cal. 1341 inside, the cal. 1340 has a 24h indicator added to the small second hand on the left.
Beautiful blue dial btw
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A good good info:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/176-...-review.32325/
Those seamasters are stunners!
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Just a photo update with custom made leather strap...
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Hello all,
First time posting here, but I've been collecting for a while and may have crossed paths with some of you on other corners of the web. The focus of my collection for the last several years has been the Omega cal. 1040. Thought I would add this to the discussion: https://www.calibre1040.com/calibre-...ide-movements/ If you scroll to the bottom there are pdfs of the official parts guides from Swatch Group that can be of use as well.
I wrote page as more of an identification guide than a technical guide as I'm not a trained watchmaker. I also limited it to the 1340/1341/1040/1041 for simplicity's sake and don't cover the regatta variant (1345) or the later Breguet iterations. I welcome any corrections or clarifications!
Forgive me reviving this old post and indeed creating a zombie post - but bringing it back from the dead seemed a good option to keep this pic in context.
Here is a Lemania 9801-72 model and case powered by the cal. 1341 but branded HEUER! It is most likely from 1983 created during the five years that Lemania owned Heuer.
In all honesty I do not believe that to be a Heuer.
If that is a Lemania case, the 72 in the case code is a Lemania date, 1972, which would fit the narrow window of using tge 1340 movement which is inside that watch.
I have never seen anything in any Heuer catalogue that has anything like that dial, in that case.
I think it is a franken. Sorry.
D
All the pics I have.
Photo prior to refurbishing:
I definitely agree nothing like it in the catalogues, but I have seen Heuer watches with Lemania references in the past. I hate the word prototype (usually means Franken of course) but could it possibly be - the dial doesn't look "cooked" up. I don't believe it to be that unusual to see Heuer's with Lemania, as Lemania was the owners of Heuer as you are aware. And I am not surprised if they were using old Lemania stock as the whole early 80s was a tumultuous time for the Swiss watch industry. I know of a person who owns a Rodania branded, identical cased watch, with a serial number in the same range and though I am uncertain (for this Lemania owned period) I have seen 3.5xx.xxx serials dated to 1981/82, so that would be during the Heuer period.
If I could show that the dial was a fake then that would make it so easy. If I could find another dial with the same 3 and 6 design that would be interesting.
I truly appreciate all the responses and I am taking them all on board. But for clarity, what was the run of the model 9801-72 case model in terms of years produced?
Last edited by Ozyjohn; 30th May 2022 at 16:29.
Your best bet would be to ask the question here:
http://www.chronocentric.com/forums/heuer/
or
'The International Vintage Heuer Owners Club' group on Facebook
Edit: I see you've emailed Jeff, any response?
Last edited by ed335d; 30th May 2022 at 18:15.
I am very sorry, but for me there is no doubt. Why?
Several reasons
- 1340 production was pretty short (see above, roughly 1971-5). It was prohibitively expensive when it came out, and was superceded by the 5100 within a couple of years anyway, which was much cheaper.
- Heuer never used a single Lemania chronograph movement in their watches until the two were joined by ownership. This movement pre-dates that union by a decade.
- Heuer always used Buren and Valjoux movements for their chronos until they were owned by Lemania
- Lemania actually produced new cases (as well as re-using then-current SSIH cases at the time) to create the Heuer Lemania chronos, they didn't re-use decade-old movements in decade-old cases.
- My own database of Lemania movement serials dates this as very early 70s, they were using 4 million serials in the 1980s.
- I have never seen a 3.5 mill serial Lemania movement in a 1980s watch
- The case design is 9801, the date is the 72. It follows the format of all Lemania-used case serials. This also fits the movement for date
- There are many examples to be found worldwide using this 9801 case, with signed dials by Lemania, Nivada, Bucherer etc etc. No Heuers
- So the movement type, serial number and case number all fit an early 1970s watch, which I am sure it is. All those quacks make it a duck.
- A 70s Lemania chrono would be impossible to be a Heuer (who at the time were incredibly well documented)
- Also, unfortunately, this seems to have a case of over-signing. The rotor engraving is well executed for the serial, and not so for the Heuer, which is both incomplete (first vertical of H and loop on R) but also misaligned, and done in a different manner (no square corners on the serial, it was done with a rotary bit, the Heuer has corners everywhere).
- Where you see signed rotors on the 1340, they are all engraved the same way, with a rotary tool, with round ends to all letters
- The same misalignment is also true of the Heuer shield on the caseback (which is also odd because that is engraved, when the Acier Inoxydable and the numerals are all stamped)
- Heuer Lemanias were not so prodigiously signed. Usually once only. The movements were never usually signed Heuer, and the casebacks only on the outside.
I wish I could find where that dial design comes from, but I cannot (which is slightly odd in itself).
However, I am totally convinced this is simple 1970s Lemania 1340 powered chrono in the 9801 case.
That has had Heuer signatures added to it.
I have no idea whey. It was a nice chronograph before, but any potential value added by association with Heuer is totally nullified by the certainty that it pre-dates Heuer-Lemania associations by a decade.
I am sure Jeff will conform this from the Heuer side of things
Dave
Thanks, Dave. Truly appreciate your detailed response - great stuff to know. I'll keep you and the forum updated on what Jeff also says.
That just leaves us with the dial - based on your well derived logic, the dial must be fake, right? Do you see the dial as "cooked up" from some other dial - I can't see anything on it that screams fake other than the odd design 6s and 9s on the subdial . If so why as it wouldn't really add any value?
Cheers
John
Last edited by Ozyjohn; 31st May 2022 at 03:36.
The dial is a bit of a mystery.
The outer blue track with the 0-60 scale is not one I recall seeing.
And the 6s and 9s are pretty unique, being open. And the 2s are quite top heavy.
The only bit that is suspicious (i.e must, by definition, be dodgy, if you follow my logic above) is the Heuer name, the rest "could" be original.
The outer blue track certainly looks it, with good print, even outlines, and even some flakiness you might associate with age.
However, I have to say from the photos that are here, it is possible that all the white print has been re-done. It is pretty well done, if it is, and I am not sure the definition on the photos is good enough to be sure, but the line thickness and the ends (serifing on fonts and the end of the subdial indices) look a little indistinct.
Cliche manufacture for dials like this has been at an immensely high quality for decades on OEM dials. Re-prints less so, often with cliches derived from pictures, not orignal artwork, and therefore missing the features that make the print so crisp.
Again, I must say that this may be a feature of the photos, not the print. The bad mistakes (like extending sub-dial indices too short or long, mixed fonts and so forth) are not present at all.
One of the photos also makes the lume look quite high build (convex) rather than flat-topped, and slightly glossy. Both might be signs of re-luming, but again, definition is not complete enough.
Does the lume charge up when illuminated with a torch and glow, even for a short time?
Dave