Lockdown easing?

[oldoakknives]

Welcome to "elderly care" US style.

Yes, have their roots in the 80s under Thatcher and Major, and continued by Blair and Brown.

[Ruggertech]

Did any hospitals actually run out of PPE supplies?

Do you think the people managing care homes should bear more responsibility for the situation, given that they knew their residents would be particularly at risk and didn't isolate them sooner?

Given that the average cost of a residential care home in the UK in 2019, was £33,852 a year rising to over £47,320 a year when nursing care was included, do you think the NHS (or government) should be paying for, and supplying, PPE required by them?

I know two care home owners, one is a millionaire, the other a multimillionaire. The watches and cars I've seen both sporting would pay for an awfull lot of ppe for their staff, and their second, and in the latter case third and fourth homes would pay for an incredible amount more.

Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk

[Carnut]

Following my questions yesterday about antibody tests, ( in my opinion the only key to opening up wider society) some glimmer of hope in the news today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52656808

[TBKBABAB]

Well if they keep to there time scale, all primary school years will be back in July with maybe bars restaurants open. Lots more people back to work. Social distance in the schools will just not happen. I'm pretty sure by the summer hols that R number will be above 1. Just looking at some of them public transport pictures today is scary.

That time scale is all down to what happens to R and other things so the later steps may not happen, I saw public transport pictures yesterday where it still looked pretty deserted and we live in area where a large number of people commute to London although the tube in London is a problem.

[TBKBABAB]

Isn’t the issue that likely infected elderly people were discharged from hospitals into care homes to make beds available, thus spreading the virus into the homes?
As for PPE, could equally say the hospitals should also be managing procurement, not for the Government to micro-manage this. Reality was PPE became almost unobtainable, not a matter of cost and who was paying for it.

If it’s a private hospital yes they should be responsible for procurement, if you are running a business making money out
of providing care you should take some responsibility. I saw an interview with someone running a care home
about not being able to get tests when it was expanded and was asked how often they had tried and the reply was several times and was moaning that they couldn’t get them, if it was that important I wouldn’t have tried several times I would beeen constantly trying.

[Saint-Just]

That time scale is all down to what happens to R and other things so the later steps may not happen, I saw public transport pictures yesterday where it still looked pretty deserted and we live in area where a large number of people commute to London although the tube in London is a problem.

That’s a very passive way to see things. What happens to R depends on the measures we take. Test, track trace and indeed isolate and R will be kept down while Britain returns to work. Fail to do that and every time you ease the lockdown the R will go up again. I don’t believe there is a way to release lockdown ‘just right’ so that R is kept under 1 and the country returns to normal. And if there is it will be so slow that it makes TTT and I look cheap in comparison.

[TBKBABAB]

That’s a very passive way to see things. What happens to R depends on the measures we take. Test, track trace and indeed isolate and R will be kept down while Britain returns to work. Fail to do that and every time you ease the lockdown the R will go up again. I don’t believe there is a way to release lockdown ‘just right’ so that R is kept under 1 and the country returns to normal. And if there is it will be so slow that it makes TTT and I look cheap in comparison.

Just pointing out on what basis the proposals have been made I think we need to start trying to move forward. I am sure a close eye is being kept on other countries opening up ahead of us although we will only know for sure when we do as because of demographic differences and other factors there will be a difference between countries.

[Carnut]

So, a layman here, thinking out load ;-)

I am still not getting the fixation on the mythical R number. Surely, the government released R figure is not and never will be a constant to you, it's all about a personal R. Your location is much more important. The R can rise to 1 million, it will still not effect (or infect/affect) you, if you are stood on a deserted island all on your own. However if the government R is 1 and you step into a large crowded nightclub, go to Glastonbury or a football stadium, your personal risk of this much lower R number will be higher.

The virus has a fixed ability to infect other people, which does not rise or lower by anything other than its ability to reach a person without an antibody. We can stay in lockdown for 10 years, that fact will not change.... will it?

[Kingstepper]

If it’s a private hospital yes they should be responsible for procurement, if you are running a business making money out
of providing care you should take some responsibility. I saw an interview with someone running a care home
about not being able to get tests when it was expanded and was asked how often they had tried and the reply was several times and was moaning that they couldn’t get them, if it was that important I wouldn’t have tried several times I would beeen constantly trying.

If NHS Trust hospitals were, as we were constantly being told, unable to source PPE or tests for staff (within budget funded by taxpayers) why do you think private homes would be able to (no matter how hard the tried)?
Do you think they would be able to arrange an RAF airlift from Turkey?

[oldoakknives]

I know two care home owners, one is a millionaire, the other a multimillionaire. The watches and cars I've seen both sporting would pay for an awfull lot of ppe for their staff, and their second, and in the latter case third and fourth homes would pay for an incredible amount more.

Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk

Fairly common for these homes to make large profits then?

As for running out of PPE, given the airtime that it was given, with people saying they had run out almost every time the news was on, there don’t seem to be many actual cases. In fact there are cases where health authority leaders deny it happened.

[Saint-Just]

Indeed. But as I said, we can make a success of this if we take the right measures. Or not, if we don’t.
It is of course much more difficult now because of the stranglehold the virus has. If R=0.8 (an optimistic hypothesis) and we have 3 million people infected, they will contaminate 2.4 million people who in turn will contaminate 1.9 million more, etc. By the time we have herd immunity, and considering how lethal the virus is among older people, there will be hardly anyone left over 75 years old in the country. It may suit Classic Dom, though.

[Saint-Just]

Fairly common for these homes to make large profits then?

As for running out of PPE, given the airtime that it was given, with people saying they had run out almost every time the news was on, there don’t seem to be many actual cases. In fact there are cases where health authority leaders deny it happened.

I would have thought that the very heavy toll paid by frontline staff was enough to demonstrate the lack of protection they had. Did I dream up the gowns made from bin bags? The scrambling to send RAF to Turkey, only to come back with shit?

[oldoakknives]

I would have thought that the very heavy toll paid by frontline staff was enough to demonstrate the lack of protection they had. Did I dream up the gowns made from bin bags? The scrambling to send RAF to Turkey, only to come back with shit?

Was it because of a lack of PPE though? And were the staff using bin bags working in the ICU or virus wards?
And yes the government were desperate to obtain more PPE, as was every other government. Being let down by suppliers with sub standard goods is hardly something you can prevent if the initial samples or specifications were correct.

But you never answered my question about how many cases there were of hospitals that actually ran out of PPE.

[TBKBABAB]

If NHS Trust hospitals were, as we were constantly being told, unable to source PPE or tests for staff (within budget funded by taxpayers) why do you think private homes would be able to (no matter how hard the tried)?
Do you think they would be able to arrange an RAF airlift from Turkey?

That’s a rather silly reply the PPE and testing has nothing to do with budget, a care home doesn’t need the same volume as the whole of the NHS, and all these supposed smaller U.K. companies who were saying they could produce it in small volumes but the government weren’t going back to them could have helped? Seems to me that people could have done better
things with their time than just getting on the TV and moaning. I would think there are some who did but of course we don’t
hear from them as they are busy getting on with it.

[oldoakknives]

Indeed. But as I said, we can make a success of this if we take the right measures. Or not, if we don’t.
It is of course much more difficult now because of the stranglehold the virus has. If R=0.8 (an optimistic hypothesis) and we have 3 million people infected, they will contaminate 2.4 million people who in turn will contaminate 1.9 million more, etc. By the time we have herd immunity, and considering how lethal the virus is among older people, there will be hardly anyone left over 75 years old in the country. It may suit Classic Dom, though.

Reading some people’s comments on here it seems to be an idea that suits many others as well.

[oldoakknives]

That’s a rather silly reply the PPE and testing has nothing to do with budget, a care home doesn’t need the same volume as the whole of the NHS, and all these supposed smaller U.K. companies who were saying they could produce it in small volumes but the government weren’t going back to them could have helped? Seems to me that people could have done better
things with their time than just getting on the TV and moaning. I would think there are some who did but of course we don’t
hear from them as they are busy getting on with it.

I believe the government did look at many smaller companies who offered to manufacture, but the logistics involved to buy from many small suppliers and test all the products as well would be huge. Imagine the outcry if the products were below standards.

[Rodder]

Grandparents are generally older than teachers.
There is a risk to more grandparents than teachers.
Schools will follow protocols to minimise risk.

It doesn’t matter if grandparents are older. The point is children can spread it.

And with the ways schools are built risk can not be lowered to an acceptable level.

[TBKBABAB]

I believe the government did look at many smaller companies who offered to manufacture, but the logistics involved to buy from many small suppliers and test all the products as well would be huge. Imagine the outcry if the products were below standards.

Yep but my point was they could have contacted care homes or care homes could have tried to contact them.

[TBKBABAB]

It doesn’t matter if grandparents are older. The point is children can spread it.

And with the ways schools are built risk can not be lowered to an acceptable level.

You mean what you think an acceptable level is knowing the plan of every school in the U.K., physical plan
and the plans schools will implement.

[Saint-Just]

Was it because of a lack of PPE though? And were the staff using bin bags working in the ICU or virus wards?
And yes the government were desperate to obtain more PPE, as was every other government. Being let down by suppliers with sub standard goods is hardly something you can prevent if the initial samples or specifications were correct.

But you never answered my question about how many cases there were of hospitals that actually ran out of PPE.

Answer to your question is : I have no idea.
As to the beginning of the quoted post... Why would frontline staff die of Covid-19? Could it be because they are in close contact with people that can contaminate them? And patients are able to contaminate you over a week before they end up in ICU. And before getting to the virus ward, they need to be tested and the hospital must have the result of that test. Or would you prefer to be put in the virus ward until they knew whether or not you had it? Which means that all personnel in contact with patients whose test results haven't come in yet should have appropriate PPE. And they didn't.
Of course, I could have read your post as if you were saying that it was the deceased's fault if they had become infected. I chose not to, because I don't believe that's what you meant. But I am sure some people will say that, and will meant it.

[oldoakknives]

Yep but my point was they could have contacted care homes or care homes could have tried to contact them.

Sorry yes, I misunderstood the point you were making. That is a good question.

[TBKBABAB]

Indeed. But as I said, we can make a success of this if we take the right measures. Or not, if we don’t.
It is of course much more difficult now because of the stranglehold the virus has. If R=0.8 (an optimistic hypothesis) and we have 3 million people infected, they will contaminate 2.4 million people who in turn will contaminate 1.9 million more, etc. By the time we have herd immunity, and considering how lethal the virus is among older people, there will be hardly anyone left over 75 years old in the country. It may suit Classic Dom, though.

If 3 million people are currently infected I don’t think it matters what you do, in this case better just close your eyes
and go for herd immunity.
Last estimate I saw was about 136/140,000 but this was is a very initial estimate on 9th of May but official survey figures should be published later today by ONS who are carrying it out with Oxford University, UK Biocentre and IQVA.

[oldoakknives]

Answer to your question is : I have no idea.
As to the beginning of the quoted post... Why would frontline staff die of Covid-19? Could it be because they are in close contact with people that can contaminate them? And patients are able to contaminate you over a week before they end up in ICU. And before getting to the virus ward, they need to be tested and the hospital must have the result of that test. Or would you prefer to be put in the virus ward until they knew whether or not you had it? Which means that all personnel in contact with patients whose test results haven't come in yet should have appropriate PPE. And they didn't.
Of course, I could have read your post as if you were saying that it was the deceased's fault if they had become infected. I chose not to, because I don't believe that's what you meant. But I am sure some people will say that, and will meant it.

If the guidelines for when PPE was necessary were not wide enough then that would be wrong, in hindsight perhaps, and a different point altogether. Yes of course frontline staff could have caught the virus because they were in close contact with people who were infected. But was it because they had run out of PPE?

[Saint-Just]

Yep but my point was they could have contacted care homes or care homes could have tried to contact them.

The problem is, those company offered their help to the government. Only the government knows who they are. They did not receive an answer.
What they do is not make PPE: it just happens that they can make them. Not receiving a response they concluded there was no interest. Which is the logical conclusion to take. And they continued making whatever it is they were initially set up to make.
Furthermore the directive was that care home patients were not at risk, as demonstrated yesterday in PMQ.

- - - Updated - - -

If the guidelines for when PPE was necessary were not wide enough then that would be wrong, in hindsight perhaps, and a different point altogether. Yes of course frontline staff could have caught the virus because they were in close contact with people who were infected. But was it because they had run out of PPE?

Are you saying they were careless then?
As to the guidelines: you must wear PPE when in close proximity with a virus that spreads like wild fire across the world. Where is hindsight necessary? And no, it's the one and only point: there was not enough PPE so the guidelines were adapted to reduce the need for PPE. It is absolutely shocking!

[Kingstepper]

That’s a rather silly reply the PPE and testing has nothing to do with budget, a care home doesn’t need the same volume as the whole of the NHS, and all these supposed smaller U.K. companies who were saying they could produce it in small volumes but the government weren’t going back to them could have helped? Seems to me that people could have done better
things with their time than just getting on the TV and moaning. I would think there are some who did but of course we don’t
hear from them as they are busy getting on with it.

And your reply is sensible? Obviously a care home doesn’t need the same volume as the whole of NHS but an NHS Trust isn’t procuring for the whole NHS either.
Maybe we didn’t hear about the smaller UK companies just getting on with it either.

[Kingstepper]

It doesn’t matter if grandparents are older. The point is children can spread it.

And with the ways schools are built risk can not be lowered to an acceptable level.

But best not to spread it to older people.

[Passenger]

The problem is, those company offered their help to the government. Only the government knows who they are. They did not receive an answer.
What they do is not make PPE: it just happens that they can make them. Not receiving a response they concluded there was no interest. Which is the logical conclusion to take. And they continued making whatever it is they were initially set up to make.
Furthermore the directive was that care home patients were not at risk, as demonstrated yesterday in PMQ.

- - - Updated - - -



Are you saying they were careless then?
As to the guidelines: you must wear PPE when in close proximity with a virus that spreads like wild fire across the world. Where is hindsight necessary? And no, it's the one and only point: there was not enough PPE so the guidelines were adapted to reduce the need for PPE. It is absolutely shocking!

Yup, shocking doesn't scratch the surface, negligence, at a minimum, of the fatal kind. Shifting thousands of potentially infected folks from hospitals back into care homes, without first testing them for Covid, goes against all common sense, never mind the 'science'. Much had been reported about how it, covid, had raced through care homes in Italy and elsewhere, it was such an obviously dumb thing to do, why take the chance of introducing something so deadly into such a target rich environment, why create a fish in a barrel scenario...simultaneously waffling on about 'shielding' the most vulnerable.

[TBKBABAB]

And your reply is sensible? Obviously a care home doesn’t need the same volume as the whole of NHS but an NHS Trust isn’t procuring for the whole NHS either.
Maybe we didn’t hear about the smaller UK companies just getting on with it either.

Individual NHS trusts didn’t buy plane loads from Turkey either and I ‘believe’ once we go into a health
crisis like this the procurement shifts to PHE. As I said maybe the smaller companies were supplying care homes
and possibly others, I think OOK’s reply about why the government didn’t chase down a lot of potential smaller suppliers
is spot on.

[domwells]

So, a layman here, thinking out load ;-)

I am still not getting the fixation on the mythical R number. Surely, the government released R figure is not and never will be a constant to you, it's all about a personal R. Your location is much more important. The R can rise to 1 million, it will still not effect (or infect/affect) you, if you are stood on a deserted island all on your own. However if the government R is 1 and you step into a large crowded nightclub, go to Glastonbury or a football stadium, your personal risk of this much lower R number will be higher.

The virus has a fixed ability to infect other people, which does not rise or lower by anything other than its ability to reach a person without an antibody. We can stay in lockdown for 10 years, that fact will not change.... will it?

As I understand it, the R value is an average of the number of people currently being infected by an infected person.
A personal R would be the number of people that you have infected. This isn't the same as the risk of you catching it, which as you say depends on your behaviour.

[TBKBABAB]

The problem is, those company offered their help to the government. Only the government knows who they are. They did not receive an answer.
What they do is not make PPE: it just happens that they can make them. Not receiving a response they concluded there was no interest. Which is the logical conclusion to take. And they continued making whatever it is they were initially set up to make.
Furthermore the directive was that care home patients were not at risk, as demonstrated yesterday in PMQ.

A lot of these companies contacted the press I’m sure they could have contacted carehome U.K., AGE U.K. or several
other organisations.

And another person using a misquote like a certain person at PMQ yesterday.

[Saint-Just]

A lot of these companies contacted the press I’m sure they could have contacted carehome U.K., AGE U.K. or several
other organisations.

And another person using a misquote like a certain person at PMQ yesterday.

These companies contacted the press when it became obvious that the government (and PHE) were not able to supply PPE. What they did say was that they offered their help and received no response. Look, you need help with a French text, I speak French (native) but I am not a translator by trade. I offer you my help and you don't reply. That could be because I am not on your list of translators, or because you have lost my email (something the government uses as a defence regularly), or because you're so disorganised that you didn't bother. That's fine with me. But I am not going to PM every member of the forum to enquire if they need a translation: I'll go back and continue my normal job. But if you then post again saying you can't get hold of a French translator and it's compromising your ability to do something, expect a post from me in the thread.

This is exactly what happened with those small companies.

It wasn't a misquote at all. the denial by Boris amounts to the directive saying: if there is no virus around, then care homes should not be affected. No shit Sherlock!

[Rodder]

You mean what you think an acceptable level is knowing the plan of every school in the U.K., physical plan
and the plans schools will implement.

Well, with that question you’ve just moved your argument and implicitly accepted you were wrong. I rarely get in arguments but this is an important point to me. It’s now become transparent how you and others can get in continual cycle of disagreement.

[vagabond]

If 3 million people are currently infected I don’t think it matters what you do, in this case better just close your eyes
and go for herd immunity.
Last estimate I saw was about 136/140,000 but this was is a very initial estimate on 9th of May but official survey figures should be published later today by ONS who are carrying it out with Oxford University, UK Biocentre and IQVA.

Extrapolating the figures released from today's detailed Spanish report, it would suggest that the UK has 3+ million infections.

[Rodder]

But best not to spread it to older people.

Going back to my original point, a significant number of teachers are old, over 50 or60. If they catch it there’s a real chance they’’ll be in hospital or die.

What I’’m trying to say is the advice isn’t consistent, lots of grandparents are in their 40s, 50s,60s etc But it’s not safe for them to look after or see their grandchildren, so why is it for older teacher?

Genuinely, kids might be safe, but there appears to be conflicting studies and government won’t publish the evidence. And, if children don’t spread it why on earth can’t grandparents see their children. It would really get the economy going if they could help with child care!

[Passenger]

A lot of these companies contacted the press I’m sure they could have contacted carehome U.K., AGE U.K. or several
other organisations.

And another person using a misquote like a certain person at PMQ yesterday.

From what I read and saw reported last month Care Homes were getting PPE being donated by local businesses in some instances. It's possible that those charities operating in the Care sector were in fact facilitating additional contacts.

It was also reported on one, several instances I can personally recall, those UK companies after trying repeatedly to get an answer from our Govt, who lets not forget asked/begged for their help, when Govt failed to reply constructively, decided for themselves to go ahead and supply overseas..they are after all businesses and global demand is through the roof, there's a pandemic donchaknow.

[ralphy]

Answer to your question is : I have no idea.

If you force staff to re-use PPE then theoretically you'll never run out of it...

R

[Passenger]

If you force staff to re-use PPE then theoretically you'll never run out of it...

R

Although you risk running out of staff.

[Saint-Just]

If you force staff to re-use PPE then theoretically you'll never run out of it...

R

Indeed, hence my mentioning the changes in the guidelines. Reminds me of this cartoon when a character shoots an arrow against a fence, then draws circles around the arrow afterwards, thus hitting the bullseye every time.

[Ruggertech]

Fairly common for these homes to make large profits then?

As for running out of PPE, given the airtime that it was given, with people saying they had run out almost every time the news was on, there don’t seem to be many actual cases. In fact there are cases where health authority leaders deny it happened.

In the two examples I know of yes, huge profits. I have no idea what the supply of PPE is to their staff. I'd like to think it good, hence my comment regarding the owners having expensive baubles about their persons and a string of holiday homes.
And as for running out of PPE in nhs trusts, maybe some are, maybe not, I dont know. But I do know that the ward manager on the ward my wife retired from has stated that any PPE required is a phone call away and on the ward within the hour. The other nurses on the ward that she is still in contact with confirm this also. Of course they are run ragged for twelve plus hours every day in an extremely stressful environment, but that's a different issue to PPE availability.

Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk

[oldoakknives]

In the two examples I know of yes, huge profits. I have no idea what the supply of PPE is to their staff. I'd like to think it good, hence my comment regarding the owners having expensive baubles about their persons and a string of holiday homes.
And as for running out of PPE in nhs trusts, maybe some are, maybe not, I dont know. But I do know that the ward manager on the ward my wife retired from has stated that any PPE required is a phone call away and on the ward within the hour. The other nurses on the ward that she is still in contact with confirm this also. Of course they are run ragged for twelve plus hours every day in an extremely stressful environment, but that's a different issue to PPE availability.

Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk

That’s very interesting thanks.

[OldHooky]

Good documentary on the box last night about South Korea. It shows how we got things completely and utterly wrong.

[number2]

Yes, have their roots in the 80s under Thatcher and Major, and continued by Blair and Brown.

Agreed though this is worth looking at

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/project...oney-spent-nhs

[oldoakknives]

If you force staff to re-use PPE then theoretically you'll never run out of it...

R

I think I'm right in saying a lot of hospital equipment and clothing is cleaned and re-used on an everyday basis. If it's safe and proper to do so then surely PPE wouldn't be an exception.

[oldoakknives]

Agreed - hopefully going forward our NHS will no longer be treated in such a cavalier manner.

At the end of the day it will depend on how willing people are to pay for it. Personally I'd rather pay more tax and have a better standard of care across the board. Others may have a different view.

[oldoakknives]

The problem is, those company offered their help to the government. Only the government knows who they are. They did not receive an answer.
What they do is not make PPE: it just happens that they can make them. Not receiving a response they concluded there was no interest. Which is the logical conclusion to take. And they continued making whatever it is they were initially set up to make.
Furthermore the directive was that care home patients were not at risk, as demonstrated yesterday in PMQ.

- - - Updated - - -



Are you saying they were careless then?
As to the guidelines: you must wear PPE when in close proximity with a virus that spreads like wild fire across the world. Where is hindsight necessary? And no, it's the one and only point: there was not enough PPE so the guidelines were adapted to reduce the need for PPE. It is absolutely shocking!

The government would have to contact every company to find out what they were offering. Then they would have to ensure standards were met, and numbers and costs were viable. Then co-ordinate with everyone doing the same to find out total numbers ordered. Then actual deliveries would have to be checked for suitability and standards. Over hundreds or thousands of small companies. It would be a logistical nightmare and need a veritable army of people to sort out. I think you are over simplifying the possibilities. Imagine the outcry if the items turned out to be sub-standard.

And no I'm not saying staff were careless, and I think you know that. Again you say there was not enough PPE, but again I ask how many hospitals actually ran out of PPE.

Perhaps Ruggertech's experience is not common, that's what I'm trying to find out. I'm not defending anyone, just looking for answers.

In the two examples I know of yes, huge profits. I have no idea what the supply of PPE is to their staff. I'd like to think it good, hence my comment regarding the owners having expensive baubles about their persons and a string of holiday homes.
And as for running out of PPE in nhs trusts, maybe some are, maybe not, I dont know. But I do know that the ward manager on the ward my wife retired from has stated that any PPE required is a phone call away and on the ward within the hour. The other nurses on the ward that she is still in contact with confirm this also. Of course they are run ragged for twelve plus hours every day in an extremely stressful environment, but that's a different issue to PPE availability.

Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk

[MrSmith]

At the end of the day it will depend on how willing people are to pay for it. Personally I'd rather pay more tax and have a better standard of care across the board. Others may have a different view.

I would rather pay more tax for a properly funded NHS but then I would also rather have the multi billion companies paying their share too.

On a separate note, this wiki link posted on twitter shows that despite all the media outcry about the flouting of social distancing there must have been some adherence otherwise the number of new infections and deaths wouldn’t have gone below 50 from a peak of 1000.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVI...emic_in_London



Will see if this starts to climb and all the good work gets undone by the current transport issues and lack of face covering..

[Rod]

Good documentary on the box last night about South Korea. It shows how we got things completely and utterly wrong.

Well they don't always get it right do they.
More infections when they re-opened night clubs again.

https://www.vox.com/2020/5/11/212544...pening-dangers

[Saint-Just]

As alluded to earlier, in my post and in Ralphy's, it's possible that no hospital ran out of PPE because they changed the guidelines to match what they had. The problem is: If a mask needs to be changed every hour because it becomes damp and makes breathing harder as well as less safe, telling staff they need to keep it all day makes them appear to have enough but staff suffer from even more exhaustion as they struggle to breathe, and the mask doesn't fulfil its role. So they're more likely to catch the virus and the government can say there was enough PPE to conform to the guidelines. Likewise for aprons instead of gowns.
See here, for example.

So it's possible no Trust ran out of PPE equipment if they followed the guidelines. But NHS staff died. This is a sobering read

[TBKBABAB]

Well, with that question you’ve just moved your argument and implicitly accepted you were wrong. I rarely get in arguments but this is an important point to me. It’s now become transparent how you and others can get in continual cycle of disagreement.

That wasn’t a question it was a statement.

[OldHooky]

Yes, more infections, but just compare where they were before then, to where we are now.