Reply With QuoteIf you paid PayPal with your credit card, get your card company to reverse the transaction. PayPal won't like it but who cares?
Eddie
Have been after a Omega Black rubber for my SMP for a while now and have been pipped
once or twice on the bay..
Then this pops up...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=017
Looks and reads just what i want.
I'm not proud of it but i asked the seller if he had a price to end early..
He said he'd take £55 including postage which I thought was very (perhaps too) reasonable.
Paypaled the money and waited with baited breath...
....Eventually, ten days after he said he'd posted it a shitty very well worn HK fake lands on my mat... :evil:
Started a dispute via PP for goods significantly different from as desribed and contacted seller to try and get a suitable outcome
(ie "give me my money back you shit") No reply..
Warned him that dispute would be escalated to a claim.. No reply..
So i have just asked PP to escalate this dispute to a claim and within 30 seconds i get an email saying..
"..the claims process only applies to the delivery of
goods. It does not apply to complaints about the attributes or quality of
goods received. Therefore, we are unable to reverse this transaction or
issue a refund."
So what is the F***in' point of having a claim proceedure against goods that are significantly different from described.. ?? :?
It seems that there is nothing further i can do...
And i'm f***in' fuming... :evil:
If you paid PayPal with your credit card, get your card company to reverse the transaction. PayPal won't like it but who cares?
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
I think that their User Agreement includes items being grossly misrepresented. So, I would do the following.
1. Make sure that the email really is from PayPal.
2. Quote the relevant section of the User Agreement.
Best wishes,
Bob
In the 1st instance if you did fund it with your credit card then I'd do what Eddie suggests, after which I'd do what Bob suggests. PayPal's so called "protection" leaves a lot to be desired. I've not used PayPal for a long time & luckily all my transactions through it have been fine .. but you keep hearing horror stories & unlike any bank does not seem to have to be regulated, which it should.
/vince ..
Hmmm. Seems to me that yours was the bigger mistake, buying sight unseen from an unknown seller. I've bought and sold many times on the bay but whenever it's been a valuable item (watch) always insisted on closing the deal face to face, cash for goods. Less valuable, taken a chance. Been had a couple of times! I wouldn't touch paypal for anything other than minor items. If I were buying, then I'd consider it just like handing over the cash, all this talk of "protection" is just hot air, in my experience. After all, they don't provide an escrow service and those that do charge heavily for it! If it were made any easier for you to cancel the transaction then what's to stop you cancelling it after receiving perfectly good items? (Not that you would, of course) That's what prompted my thread on here last week and why I turned down an offer to buy my B. & R. and why I wouldn't touch paypal. Cheers
Paypal customer service agents are trained in fobbing off complaints and telling you that there is nothing they can do, (of course they don't want to get involved) and it works. Many customers just leave it and don't follow up.
But the agreement clearly says misrepresented goods and you can also use counterfeit goods. In a second stage they will tell you that they will only get involved when it was an ebay transaction; the agreement only applies to ebay, which it does not. Make sure you clicked on Goods and described what you purchased with the payment, otherwise they will hang you on that one as a last try.
In my experience the only thing that works is through the cedit card company to reverse the charge. Then they will jump to your attention. I never complain about high paypal charges but I expect something in return, something they only offer on paper and not in reality.
Make sure you point out counterfeit, immitation, illegal goods, breach of copyright and not an issue with quality!
I just had a similar circumstance although with a Sony Memory Stick. Because you were sent a Counterfeit you have rights under the PayPal User Agreement. If you don't make a point of saying that its Counterfeit (eBay and PayPal are under a LOT or pressure on this issue legally) you will probably be wasting your time in my experience. I got my money back but it took over 2 weeks of complete BS. Unfortunately for me I have a merchants account with Paypal and the money was deducted from the balance NOT from my CC so I was completely at Paypal's mercy in this one.
Good luck.
I feel for you... I'd keep on at Paypal, as has been suggested... good luck and let us know what happens.
Don't credit card companies only cover you for purchases over £100?
You might have shot yourself in the foot by bypassing Ebay.
If it's a definate fake, and you paid with a CC, give Paypal a miss and do what's called a 'Chargeback'.
https://www.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/websc ... side#goto1
Trouble is people are using this to get their money back for goods which are perfectly OK, leaving sellers in the lurch and having to deal with Paypal.....a nightmare.
In your case I think it's justified. Good luck.
I think to do a charge back if you're claiming the strap is a fake you will have to take it to an AD and get something in writing.
When I had something stolen in transit Paypal wanted me to fax them a cpy of the "crime report", my local Police station at first didn't even want to know as they said I had no proof a crime had been comitted, all I had was an empty box. In the end they took some details and gave me a crime number but no paperwork, the crime number alone was not enough for Paypal and things kept going in circles until the time limit for a claim expired.
I'm pretty sure that if the seller can prove delivery, of anything, you will find it hard to issue a charge back. The seller can always claim he sent an original strap.
It's quite easy to issue a charge back if goods are sent by a method that does not record their delivery and this system is open to abuse.
I do have some sympathy as I've been ripped off twice now via Paypal. Although you must realise that buying Omega via E-bay is a little like buying a Lacoste T-shirt at your local street market.
Too many wankers out there - good luck with your credit card company and paypal.
Although you must realise that buying Omega via E-bay is a little like buying a Lacoste T-shirt at your local street market.
I've seen alot of the fakes on fleabay and think i know what to look for..
In hindsight i should have asked for better photos.
I PMed the seller and asked him to confirm that it was 100% genuine, which he obviously did
I suppose one gets a little blase, especially after dealing with the guys on here.
But if you ask someone "Do you guarantee it's the real Mcoy" and they say yes... :?
Unfortunately didn't pay by CC so can't go down that route.
I'm waiting for a reply from PP to a email which was worded around the "you are condoning the sale of counterfeit goods" type.
I know it's only £55 quid but it's the principle of the thing isn't it..
Will keep you informed.
Thankyou 5 littlefish.. i knew i should have bid another tenner.. :D
:D :DOriginally Posted by John Wall
Yeah - the problem is the one you bought didn't have a shot of the other side of the strap - I assume when it arrived it had those little lugs sticking out?
I'm surprised by this because I bought a golf club which although wasn't a fake it clearly wasn't in the "as new" condition described by the seller.
I asked for a refund a never got one and took it up immediatley with paypal as it as via ebay. After a load of hassle and standard type emails from paypal they eventually forced the seller to refind the money and whilst it wasnt perfect I did get my money back.
Good luck!
For what Paypal charge they should come to the rescue when needed, paper tiger or what ?
I have a pretty straight forward view on this, ebay is sh*t and paypal is f*****g shit, don't use them, wouldn't use them. Big company couldn't give a sh*t attitude.
Doesn't help you I know but I really really hope you manage to get it sorted.
Nev.
Don't tell me you low-balled someone on the SC, "because they're cheaper on E-bay" :?:D :D
Yeah - the problem is the one you bought didn't have a shot of the other side of the strap - I assume when it arrived it had those little lugs sticking out?
No, No No... Nothing so heinous.Don't tell me you low-balled someone on the SC, "because they're cheaper on E-bay" :?:D :D
Yeah - the problem is the one you bought didn't have a shot of the other side of the strap - I assume when it arrived it had those little lugs sticking out?
5.L.F. and I ended up bidding against each other a few weeks ago for a REAL strap.. :D
:lol: I didn't know they were so expensive, I sold my 42mm PO with the rubber and bracelet for £975.
I bought a mobile phone on eBay earlier this year, and was sent a completely different phone, with a swapped case to make it look like the one ordered. In other words, a fake. Had no joy with the seller, needless to say. I sent it back, but he refused to sign for it, so it came back to me.
PayPal were brilliant. Had a bit of to-ing and fro-ing (had to fax them proof that I had attempted to return it), but they did refund my money in full after a few weeks. I was impressed, to be honest.
The seller is fuming, because I have my money back, and his phoney phone. He's welcome to collect it, of course. :twisted:
I sold a watch on July 19th this year for the best part of £700 and
paypal say because i've passed a limit of withdrawing £500 in a year i've
now got to confirm all my bank/credit card details,postal address and
e-mail address.They say they've sent me a 6 digit code by post that i
need to enter in on their site and when all these criteria are cleared they
will lift my limit.Problem is i've still not received the 6 digit number :roll:
they say its on its way from the States or Canada and could take up to
30 days..............Paypal are F*cking w*nkers all this sh*t so i can
get my money out of their account.Stay well clear from these`internet
highwaymen :bounce: :bounce: :evil:
Bearing in mind that if you register your real current account with them then in the event of a dispute they'll go in and remove any cash they want.
One of the ways round this is to register either a deposit only savings account or a second bank account in which you keep only a small amount of money.
Ok. This is the reply. My original is at the bottom...
I think i'll sleep on it before trying again in the morning... :roll:
Dear John Wall,
Thank you for contacting PayPal in relation to case ID PP-***-***-***.
We understand that you received an email from us which informed you that
PayPal is not investigating the dispute you filed.
Our policy is to investigate claims filed for items that are significantly
not as described if they were purchased on eBay and were paid for with
PayPal (using the category 'eBay item' and the respective auction number).
Since you purchased your goods independently of eBay or have not marked
your goods as eBay items while paying through PayPal, we are not able to
investigate your claim. This is because we are unable to compare pre-sales
and post-purchase descriptions of the item.
I recommend to stay in contact with the seller in order to find a
resolution that you are both happy with. If you purchased the goods on an
auction site you could also contact the customer support for that auction
site in order to find out if they have a protection policy in place.
If you'd like more information please have a look at our User Agreement.
You can find it by clicking on the link at the bottom of any PayPal page.
You will find specific information on the 45-day deadline in the PayPal
Buyer Protection Policy and PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy.
I understand your frustration regarding this matter and regret any
inconvenience it might have caused you.
Sincerely,
Judita
Protection Services Department
PayPal, an eBay Company
Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Form Message
customer subject: goods not as described
customer message: Additional Information:
'Hi.
Used paypal to fund a buy it now for ebay item No.############.
Item that arrived was a fake and significantly different from the
description of "100% genuine"
I am prepared to return the item to the seller, send the item to
paypal or
have it destroyed as directed by your user agreement.
A previous claim Case Number: PP-***-***-***
has been rejected because Paypal informed that you are not responsible
for
the condition of goods upon receipt but this seems to contradict the
above
direction for goods that are significantly different to as described.
Please advise.
Thank you for your time
John Wall'
Am I going mad or does the response to John's letter make no sense at all?
Isn't the point they are making that the deal wasn't completed on Ebay? Not that it would have made much difference, the swine would doubtless have wriggled out of it some other way!
Ah, thus because he closed the auction early it ceased to be an eBay affair, became a private arrangement and Paypal aren't interested any more.
A fine point that allows eBay and Paypal too much wriggle room. :?
Here's this mornings effort... :roll:
Thank you for your reply.
You say that you are unable to compare pre-sale and post-purchase descriptions of the disputed item.
I have given you the ebay item number, 270259601589 and can give you a post-purchase description.
It is a counterfeit Omega watch strap.
What other comparison do you require.
Please confirm that If this auction had ran its course and i had won and received this counterfeit item
that I would have been able to file a claim for fake goods.
I am very disturbed that a company like yourselves and your sister company Ebay, can let the sale of counterfeit goods be sold and to make a profit from these sales and then be unwilling to help the innocent party.
Ebay have had an insertion fee for Item number: 270259601589 and Paypal have taken a percentage of the £55 for handling the payment to Jordan Price.
What exactly is the Paypal policy and indeed the ebay policy of the sales of counterfeit goods ?
It seems to me that you are condoning this sale by being unwilling to do anything about it.
Are you really telling me that if i were to now re-advertise this counterfeit Omega watch strap on your Ebay site and ended the listing early for a agreed sum, I would get away with the unfortunate buyers money because the buyer would have no grounds for a claim through you ?
I look forward to your reply
John Wall
I don't understand their unwillingness to help. They appear to be saying that because the auction was ended early, it's no longer their concern yet PayPal is used for many payments, not only eBay purchases. Are they saying that unless it was an eBay purchase, the "PayPal Promise" doesn't apply?
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
The irony to this is I bought a "Genuine Omega rubber strap" of a forum member here and it turned out to be fak [I sold it to JonW and he put me straight :) ] I assume the guy who sold it to me realised his mistake when he bought it from eBay, then posted it for sale here!
I refunded JonW immediately, I have had no such luck form the original seller :? If I could rememer who it was, I'd post in H&V.
Paypal do seem to be total weasels, don't they?
Dave E
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day
...Now that's an injustice to weasels !!
I bet that if it is a private sale (say one conducted here) they have no responsibility whatsoever for misdescribed goods. Thinking about it, why should they?
Well they don't have any responsibility for the goods per se, they only have responsibility for ensuring that the transaction is legal, decent and honest. If it isn't, they take back the funds from the seller and return them to the buyer. That's neither too difficult nor too much to ask, is it? Your credit card issuer would do it, so it's reasonable to expect that PayPal would.I bet that if it is a private sale (say one conducted here) they have no responsibility whatsoever for misdescribed goods. Thinking about it, why should they?
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Have you tried to give them a call, ask to talk to a manager or manager on duty. The agents are just like robots and will not help, as they have no authority of any sort. Brainwashed they just play the broken record.
Might be worth a try...
After what can only be described as various to-ing and fro-ing and attempts by PP to
fob me of with legaleese and company policy.. I was begining to loose the will to live.
Lost the plot and had a rant.. Copied below.
I have today received three replys from three different representatives
with various responses to my ongoing struggle to try and recover my £55 losses.
I understand that Paypal only give buyer protection when the goods
are bought through ebay.
The item in question was an ebay item no. ############. And was
described as 100% genuine Omega watch strap.
The seller ended the listing early to sell to me. I inadvertently
described the item as goods and not an ebay purchase when paying
through Paypal.
Upon arrival the strap was found to be a counterfeit item.
It is possible for paypal to compare the original listing with my description.
All attempts to contact the seller by email have been ignored and so
i believed that the Paypal protection proceedure would be able to recover my losses.
I have used paypal for many thousands of pounds of purchases over
the last four years with my ebay account and all without any complaint.
I'm just disgusted now that a simple misplaced click in a payment box has
left me £55 poorer and another scam artist has again got away with
his "crime".
He gets £55 of my hard earned money for nothing and i get a $5
piece of
tat and absolutely no support from the company who stand up and
denounce this kind of fraud on its sites.
I will be contacting BBC "Watchdog" and writing to the Daily Mail to
enlighten other paypal users of this apparent loophole that lets these
pirates get away scott free.
I look forward to your response.
John Wall
...And today have received this reply:
Dear Mr. John Wall,
Thank you for contacting PayPal. I sincerely apologise for any difficulties
you have encountered while using PayPal. Your concerns were recently
forwarded to our office for review in the hope that we might be able to
assist you further. I have reviewed your PayPal account and your recent
enquiry. Please allow me to offer further explanation concerning your
issue.
A review of your account registered under email address #####@aol.com,
shows that on 28 July 2008 , you sent a payment in the amount of £55.00 GBP
to Jordan price, #############@hotmail.co.uk (transaction ID
7GD18131JN745405K). On 14 August 2008, you filed a dispute through PayPal
for this transaction, citing that the merchandise received was not as
described (PP-528-147-339). On 19 August 2008 you escalated the dispute to
a claim and on the same day, upon the completion of the investigation, the
claim was closed in the sellers favour.
I have now reviewed all the details of your claim and determined that a
full credit in the amount of £55.00 GBP will be provided to you Mr Wall, as
a goodwill gesture from PayPal. Please allow up to 72 hours for your credit
to be applied to your account. Please note that the actions we have taken
regarding your account are among the rare exceptions made for our valued
customers. No further exceptions will be possible going forward in relation
to this matter.
(Skip this next bit it's agreement bollox)
Please understand the terms of the PayPal User Agreement apply and legally
bind each user every time they use the PayPal Service. Our records
indicate that on 10 November 2004, you accepted the PayPal User Agreement.
At this time you were required to positively accept the terms and
conditions of the User agreement by ticking an indication box on the
application page, indicating that you had read and agreed to the terms of
the PayPal User Agreement. Please refer to the relevant portions of the
User Agreement for your reference:
User Agreement:
1. Our Relationship With You
1.1 PayPal is only a Payment Service Provider.
PayPal is duly licenced as a Luxembourg credit institution in the sense of
Article 2 of the law of 5 April 1993 on the financial sector as amended
(the “Law”) and is under the prudential supervision of the Luxembourg
supervisory authority, the Commission de Surveillance du Secteur Financier,
with registered office in L-1150 Luxembourg.
PayPal’s main business is the issuance of E-money and the provision of
services closely related to the issuance of E-money. Since the service is
limited to E-money, which does not qualify as a deposit or an investment
service in the sense of the Law, you are not protected by the Luxembourg
deposit guarantee schemes provided by the Association pour la Garantie des
Dépôts Luxembourg (AGDL). PayPal enables you to make payments to and accept
payments from third parties. PayPal is an independent contractor for all
purposes. PayPal does not have control of nor assumes the liability or
legality for the products or services that are paid for with our Service.
We do not guarantee the identity of any User or ensure that a buyer or a
seller will complete a transaction. Please note that there are risks of
dealing with underage persons or people acting under false pretence.
Conclusion
Again, I apologise for any inconvenience caused regarding this matter. If
you require clarification on any of the issues raised, please feel free to
contact us directly at ppelce@paypal.co.uk. You might also like to note
that if you are not satisfied with our response, you can refer this matter
to the following authorities:
Financial Ombudsman Service
PO Box 4
South Quay Plaza
183 Marsh Wall
London E14 9SR
Phone number: 0845 080 1800
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org/publ ... eaflet.htm
A hardcopy of the leaflet, “Your Complaint and the Ombudsman” is available
on request from PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. & Cie, S.C.A.
Or in writing only to our regulator:
Commission de Surveillance du Secteur Financier (CSSF)
110, Route d’Arlon
L-2991 Luxembourg
Yours sincerely,
Francesca
Executive Escalations
PayPal, an eBay Company
Copyright © 1999-2008 PayPal. All rights reserved. PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l.
et Cie, S.C.A., Attention: Legal Department, 22-24, Boulevard Royal L-2449
Luxembourg, RCS Luxembourg B 118 349
So... Squeaky wheels do get oiled. If you make enough fuss and ride the wave of bullshit..
Good will prevail..!!! :D
Great result John!
Glad your persistance paid off and you have got your money back - well done.
Cheers
Jim
Hurrah!
Dave E
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day
Good news!!
Now I need to try and help my daughter sort out an ebay transaction with one of the shops there. I am already getting annoyed and may go straight to the fraud route, on the basis that what she was sold was miss-representation.
Glad you got your money back but I have to admit that I am surprised you did. The seller ended the auction early to sell to you, giving his reason for ending the sale:-
'The seller ended this listing early because the item is no longer available for sale'.
The seller dishonestly ended the auction to sell to you privately, thus doing fleabay out of their 'final value' sales commission. Fleabay would have been well within their rights to disclaim responsibility in this case but amazingly they have paid you! Fleabay can now take action against the seller but with a feedback record that is not worth tuppence, I doubt the seller cares. What really winds me up about Fleabay is they have now made it COMPULSORY for a seller to offer Paypal. Who the hell do they think they are? No wonder their members are leaving in droves!
Fleabay & Paypal.
I think it was the threat of the Daily Mail that did it :-)
i was just about to say that!
What can I say? Congrats on the result - it is undoubtedly due to your perseverance and your refusal to accept a dishonest transaction. Nice one! :)
Good work, that man. Paypal still remain 'fatherless' though.
Nice one, If at first you dont succeed , skydiving is not for you ! :shock:
Good result.
I once had a decent day beating Paypal at their weasel game.
I had a better day when I closed my account afterward and feel very good about never doing business with them again.
I'm also careful of E-Bay as there are people who believe that you can't find them with a gun if they cheat you on the internet. Sometimes they're right. :evil:
I've taken the advice of one of you guys and set up a specific PP bank account.
The only money that goes in is the exact amount to pay for smaller value items of fleabay.
Larger values will go on the credit card. This will only be to buy stuff. I'm not giving those shits another of my pennies in costs for selling.
Any transactions on here with you fellas will be bank transfers.
I'm pleased with the result.. If only for the principle of it all.
It's a shame that i had to jump hoops and make threats for them to back down... :evil:
Ensure that you don't have an automatic overdraft on that account. Paypal can and will if necessary drive you into the red in the event of a dispute.
Just a couple of weeks back, I bought a belt which was supposed to be 1.5 inch wide from an Ebay dealer and paid with PP, using the Ebay transaction. The belt that arrived was 1.25 inch wide.
I emailed complained to the dealer about the wrong description and immediately received a refund, including the shipping cost. Dealer says I can keep the belt.
Can't complain . . . so far.
I'm glad you got your money back John, but it's a shame they don't take the sale of conterfeit goods more seriously. I can't believe they found in the sellers favour when he was selling fake Omega straps :evil:
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