These days are all cars the same ?

[TheTigerUK]

By that I mean are cars in the same price bracket by different manufacturers all the same ?

I was just driving up the M1 and a Jag passed me by (I let him :) ) I would have had no idea what it was if I hadent seen the badge on the boot, years ago you could spot a Jag a mile away.

[snowman]

The XF is still pretty recognisable (and XJ, although not sure it's still in production), although all their SUVs look like everyone elses (I only recognise Range Rovers!).

There is a lot of commonality in appearance, partly, one presumes due to aerodynamics, partly to the preference of the market (lowest common denominator?) and partly due to the fact that so many vehicles are based on a limited number of underlying platforms.

The truth is everything is probably 'better' these days, but possibly less enjoyable.

A few weeks ago I did something unusual - I watched (and enjoyed) a football match from beginning to end. It was back and forth, cut and thrust, thrilling, not the mired down in midfield rubbish leading to 0-0 or 1-0 results.

Trouble is, it was the 1966 World Cup Final!

Still, at least I don't need to rediscover my love (lost when I was about 12) for football and start saying things like 'They just walk it in'...

I own a Golf R estate - It'll do 40MPG if I'm gentle on a run, it'll do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds if I'm feeling stupid, is comfortable, has lots of toys (one currently not working!) and carries all my dive gear - BUT, I still liked my 2002 Skoda Octavia vRS more and the RX8 (cheese engine and all) was a million times more fun... There must be at least a dozen similar looking cars on the market, half of them with exactly the same running gear and switch gear, just different badges!

M

[MartynJC (UK)]

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...qNS6C-1280.mp4

Not all cars are the same - try an MX5

[Maysie]

I recently replaced my 12 year old Audi which I had owned since new and it had been utterly faultless for the 200k miles I had driven in it.

My new Range Rover Velar is now just over 9 months old and has done 7k miles, yet it already needs to go in for a substantial repair which means the engine needs to be removed from the car.

In my experience, modern cars may sometimes look alike, but not all cars are the same!

[tixntox]

Simple answer - Yes! They all have built in obsolescence! Engineered to put a quart into a pint pot (turbos!) with ancillaries that only just manage to get through the warranty period! Electronics galore (which often fail due to poor manufacture or wiring and connections that self destruct!). Even the old "bulletproof" companies seem to have these problems! Read the forums and weep! We live in a throwaway world. Will electric cars be any different? Most likely not!

[Devonian]

By that I mean are cars in the same price bracket by different manufacturers all the same ?

I was just driving up the M1 and a Jag passed me by (I let him :) ) I would have had no idea what it was if I hadent seen the badge on the boot, years ago you could spot a Jag a mile away.

My dad for years bought Jags. XJ sovereigns I think, always got the long wheel based ones and they were amazing to drive and very distinctive back in the day. He’d let me drive it when I was in my early 20’s and it was a really big deal for me then. I never even consider Jag’s nowadays as I kind of forget about them - They don’t look like Jags to me.

[Carnut]

By that I mean are cars in the same price bracket by different manufacturers all the same ?

I was just driving up the M1 and a Jag passed me by (I let him :) ) I would have had no idea what it was if I hadent seen the badge on the boot, years ago you could spot a Jag a mile away.

Err no. Jump into my passenger seat, strap in and tell me all cars are the same

[roadrunner1972]

I think Jaguar Particularly has become insignificant in styling terms, and they were once one of the most distinctive. The 2010 XJ and even the 2003 one were in my eyes unappealing. Then again style wise so was the 7 BM. And S Class Merc. I think the most appealing and different drivers cars at least, behind the wheel, remain BMW and Porsche. But in lots of ways yes...there is no modern e24 BMW is there...or 928.

[GraniteQuarry]

For me the last great car design was the E34 BMW, namely the 5-series 1987 to 1996 with proper brand identifiers like the small kidney grille and the four headlights.

[Damo]

A lot of the modern stuff does look quite 'samey' in my opinion so much so I keep looking at going back to a late 80's, early 90 's Bremer, always one of my fave cars. I'm really not keen on much of the new stuff at all., bar a newer golf R or audi RS4, very little else is of much interest.

[roadrunner1972]

For me the last great car design was the E34 BMW, namely the 5-series 1987 to 1996 with proper brand identifiers like the small kidney grille and the four headlights.

Yes the e34 was lovely, i think the 7 of the same era was similarly spot on, and most of what came out after 1990 was a let down. Look at the CL mercs against the SEC mercs etc, or the subsequent BMW coupes against those of the 70's and 80's. For me the 8 series was a let down after e24. But yes e34 was much nicer than its replacement as was e30.

[roadrunner1972]

A lot of the modern stuff does look quite 'samey' in my opinion so much so I keep looking at going back to a late 80's, early 90 's Bremer, always one of my fave cars. I'm really not keen on much of the new stuff at all., bar a newer golf R or audi RS4, very little else is of much interest.

I think that apart from the dreaded rust now of 80's 90s BMW's and even Series 3 Jag XJ's that there is nothing modern to touch them in looks. Maybe its my age as I grew up with these cars as a teenager, but i prefer them to the old 60's cars, even the E Type! Give me a 1989 M6 any day or M3 against any E Type Jag or Aston from the 60's or even 70's.

[GraniteQuarry]

Yes the e34 was lovely, i think the 7 of the same era was similarly spot on, and most of what came out after 1990 was a let down. Look at the CL mercs against the SEC mercs etc, or the subsequent BMW coupes against those of the 70's and 80's. For me the 8 series was a let down after e24. But yes e34 was much nicer than its replacement as was e30.

You have fine taste

Although I said IMO the last great car design was the E34, if I had to choose any car to have today in factory condition it would be the E28 M5 in Zinnobar Red exactly as below. I had a Dolphin Grey one but the red suits it so well, just gives it that sporty kick whilst still remaining demure. I'll stop there!

[awright101]

Lovely, my favourite design

[Brighty]

This thread reminded me of a monstrosity i saw a couple of weeks ago.

Saw a big car in my rear view mirror that i didn't recognise, from the big front grill it looked like one of those big Chryslers at first, as it got nearer i saw it was a Bentley front grille. I turned off to the right and as it went past, the rest of the car looked like some generic SUV thing. It looked like a cut n shut of a Bentley front end stuck onto a Volvo XC90, truly awful. Just googled it and it is apparently a Bentley Bentayga, starting price £133k, no thanks.

[vagabond]

For me the last great car design was the E34 BMW, namely the 5-series 1987 to 1996 with proper brand identifiers like the small kidney grille and the four headlights.

Arhhh - the e34, one of my favourite cars, ever. Had 2 back in the day, first a Silver 525i SE, then a Gunmetal Grey 535i Sport with the full M5 look and interior. Always hankered after the "real thing" a full blown M5 but never got around to it. Both were pedestrian compared to most of today's cars.

[roadrunner1972]

You have fine taste

Although I said IMO the last great car design was the E34, if I had to choose any car to have today in factory condition it would be the E28 M5 in Zinnobar Red exactly as below. I had a Dolphin Grey one but the red suits it so well, just gives it that sporty kick whilst still remaining demure. I'll stop there!

Yes the e28 was nice the first m5 on trx alloys like the 735 was very cool. I still have Car Magazine from 1985 when they tested the rover sd1 vitesse with the m535i and cx gti. Mid 80s were when it got very interesting with bespoke tuning from amg and alpina too. I think looking back the e24 635csi just before highline was an all time great. I remember the reds bmw used in the 80s, zinnobar and henna. With the latter being orange almost to my eye in some lights. I had a kashmir gold 1980 635csi in 1989 and we also bought another 635 that had been baltic blue, but had been resprayed in an 80s ford red like an xr3 it was a very bright red

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[roadrunner1972]

Arhhh - the e34, one of my favourite cars, ever. Had 2 back in the day, first a Silver 525i SE, then a Gunmetal Grey 535i Sport with the full M5 look and interior. Always hankered after the "real thing" a full blown M5 but never got around to it. Both were pedestrian compared to most of today's cars.

Very true its amazing how cars have moved on my 635 had only 218bhp but at the time was one of the fastest cars about locally circa 1989. I have a 2005 sapphire black 330i now and it is amazing to think even at 15 its only about 20bhp down on the original m5 or m6. I was re reading an old edition of Car from 1985 and there was an article on the first m5. It said unlike the m6 the m5 was fully built assembled at m sport rather than the normal bmw production line.

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[GraniteQuarry]

I was re reading an old edition of Car from 1985 and there was an article on the first m5. It said unlike the m6 the m5 was fully built assembled at m sport rather than the normal bmw production line.

Both the E28 and E34 M5s were hand-built at BMW Motorsport in Garching, as in a painted shells taken from the standard production line at Dingolfing and then completed on trolleys over a period of around two weeks.

There was also a small number of both assembled in Rosslyn, South Africa from kits sent from Germany, effectively all the M parts shipped down in crates and slotted into locally-made shells.

[Dave O'Sullivan]

It’s a consequence of ever tightening regulations.
There is only one ‘best’ solution to a problem. Most firms get close to that so by design, are similar.
Headlights need to be a certain height, the space between the bonnet and the engine likewise. Add to that improving understanding of aerodynamics, crash safety and the continued automation of design, (removing more and more human input), and I t’s only natural, sadly, that everything starts to meld together.

I noticed it in the mid 2000’s, with the Corsa / 307 / I30 blobs that I couldn’t tell apart from the side.

[dulux]

This thread reminded me of a monstrosity i saw a couple of weeks ago.

Saw a big car in my rear view mirror that i didn't recognise, from the big front grill it looked like one of those big Chryslers at first, as it got nearer i saw it was a Bentley front grille. I turned off to the right and as it went past, the rest of the car looked like some generic SUV thing. It looked like a cut n shut of a Bentley front end stuck onto a Volvo XC90, truly awful. Just googled it and it is apparently a Bentley Bentayga, starting price £133k, no thanks.

Oh I agree with that. The Bentayga might be big n comfy but it really is absolutely howling. Why anyone would part with £133k for that is astonishing.

But yeah I do think a lit of the current 4 door saloons are very similar, jaguar, bmw, alfa, vauxhall, etc.

[oldoakknives]

By that I mean are cars in the same price bracket by different manufacturers all the same ?

I was just driving up the M1 and a Jag passed me by (I let him :) ) I would have had no idea what it was if I hadent seen the badge on the boot, years ago you could spot a Jag a mile away.

No.

I can still spot a Jag from the distinctive grilles. Surprised if anyone can't. (yes I own one)

[roadrunner1972]

Both the E28 and E34 M5s were hand-built at BMW Motorsport in Garching, as in a painted shells taken from the standard production line at Dingolfing and then completed on trolleys over a period of around two weeks.

There was also a small number of both assembled in Rosslyn, South Africa from kits sent from Germany, effectively all the M parts shipped down in crates and slotted into locally-made shells.

Thanks for clarifying, I thought the magazine had got it wrong.

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[roadrunner1972]

No.

I can still spot a Jag from the distinctive grilles. Surprised if anyone can't. (yes I own one)

I was a Jag man for years, from being about 22 to 35. Mainly because my dad had them and fond memories that way. My last was a 2003 x350 bought in 2006 and sold 2016. I must admit that the 2010 on XJ does have that animalistic aggression that is lacking in say Audi and BMW, which seem to favour a more modernistic sculpture. In fact the last xj as grown on me lots and is the only car at the moment i was change my older 2005 Audi A8 for. I just hope if i do...that the jag will be as reliable as the a8. Which as been spot on.

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[roadrunner1972]

My dad for years bought Jags. XJ sovereigns I think, always got the long wheel based ones and they were amazing to drive and very distinctive back in the day. He’d let me drive it when I was in my early 20’s and it was a really big deal for me then. I never even consider Jag’s nowadays as I kind of forget about them - They don’t look like Jags to me.

That's pretty much my experience of growing up with Jags, my dad bought his first when I was about 13 in the mid 1980's. It was a Daimler, but they were more or less identical to the Jag XJ of the time. A Sovereign 4.2 Series 3 XJ, he traded in a Rover SD1 and the Daimler felt incredibly smooth, silent, and powerful. Then in about 1988 he bought a later series 3 4.2 Jag, registered in 1983. Which was similarly nice. Then he moved to BMW with a 7 series in 1989, which I think was a sign of the times, and history has followed on with Jaguar, who once dominated the luxury car scene in the UK, becoming a minor player to the German big 3 of Audi, Merc and BMW. Going back to the OP's question, of do cars all look the same? The XJ40 was probably a Jag that first watered down the Jaguar looks, then they returned to them with x300 and x350. Then when the 2010 XJ came along I think Jag thought they would sell more cars if they moved to a new style which many say was akin to the Audi A8. Judging by the number of 2010 on XJ Jags I see on the rd, it didn't work, and it looks like the Jag XJ might not be replaced, which is a shame.

[Seamaster73]

"Jags" could be anything these days.

The only heritage that lingers on in the Indian ones is the questionable quality.

[Andyg]

It’s strange that some folks think all 911’s look the same. However if you park an old 2.2 next to the 991 the differences are obvious. Mostly it’s size. Modern cars are huge and massively bloated. Not sure it’s because of safety features or simply to accommodate the folks who drive them. Other examples include Mini, Fiat 500, Polo, Golf, MX5 😀, etc. Fat and ugly.

Perhaps the blame lies with those who design the base platforms which are shared and which defines the cars dimensions. The only interesting cars these days are those massively (stupidly) overpowered necessitating all the extra safety aids (and weight) or those from the smaller manufacturers. All a bit depressing really.

Rant over

[roadrunner1972]

When I think back to the Jensen Interceptor and the Aston DB6, Not the mention the Facel Vega, and then even think back to the Rover SD1 and the ford Granada of the early 1980's before the jelly mould. I think, that it is probably fair to generalise that cars do all look more similar today, They are all distinguished mainly by grilles alone now...hence one comment earlier regarding Jaguar...seems their only distinguishing, or main set apart element of design is the...grille. As regards the 911, it is an evolution and still recognisable and still a 911...if only Jaguar could have done that with the E Type and created a true evolution. Instead we got the last XK. I dont rate Ian Callum at all in terms of any of his designs...then Again Chris Bangle wasn't much better, look at the 2002 7...However the 2002 7 at least does not look like anything else, and neither does anything BMW of the bangle era...having said that an e30 did look a little like a triumph dolomite

[Skyman]

No, made to order, by hand mostly, to your exact spec, and a one-off for barely more than JLR Defender prices.



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[GraniteQuarry]

However if you park an old 2.2 next to the 991 the differences are obvious.

You're not wrong! First time I saw this I thought it was Photoshopped

[Chris_in_the_UK]

No, made to order, by hand mostly, to your exact spec, and a one-off for barely more than JLR Defender prices.

Love the picture!.

[roadrunner1972]

You're not wrong! First time I saw this I thought it was Photoshopped

It does ironically show how they have tried to retain an original shape that looks the same, that as in fact become almost a parody, yes they are as far apart as series 1 XJ...and 2003 X350. I suppose that speed as necessitated the bloat.

[roadrunner1972]

It’s strange that some folks think all 911’s look the same. However if you park an old 2.2 next to the 991 the differences are obvious. Mostly it’s size. Modern cars are huge and massively bloated. Not sure it’s because of safety features or simply to accommodate the folks who drive them. Other examples include Mini, Fiat 500, Polo, Golf, MX5 , etc. Fat and ugly.

Perhaps the blame lies with those who design the base platforms which are shared and which defines the cars dimensions. The only interesting cars these days are those massively (stupidly) overpowered necessitating all the extra safety aids (and weight) or those from the smaller manufacturers. All a bit depressing really.

Rant over

Possibly, this sums up the ambiguity that has affected, all car makers. And in reality sums up the point of the OP? All cars now look the same? The 911 is a parody of the original, in a good way, it has evolved to ensure, form over function, in the modern world. Well cited.

[Andyg]

You're not wrong! First time I saw this I thought it was Photoshopped

It ready hit home for me when I was sitting at the lights in mine and a car pulled up next to me. I looked across and then UP and it was a new mini clubman - the driver must have been about a foot above me. It’s a Mini FFS!

the upside is fitting into a parking space

[roadrunner1972]

it is a shame the 911 was never as good as the later 928's in its day. 911 took it up the arse.

[vagabond]

I suppose wind tunnels, crash testing, crumple zones and vehicle legislation has made almost everything homogeneous.

[roadrunner1972]

I suppose wind tunnels, crash testing, crumple zones and vehicle legislation has made almost everything homogeneous.

Like the morris ital eh come on you lot i know you know about watches? Get a grip on cars.

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[oldoakknives]

No, made to order, by hand mostly, to your exact spec, and a one-off for barely more than JLR Defender prices.



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But boring, and looks like a beer crate on wheels.

[Andyg]

it is a shame the 911 was never as good as the later 928's in its day. 911 took it up the arse.

The 928 with its front engine 5.4 lt V8 (In GTS guise) was a fine car, but the folks in Stuttgart decided that it wasn’t fine enough. A great GT, but not really a sports car, more like an early version of the Panamerica, except more expensive.

A similarly priced 993 Turbo would have it for breakfast

[oldoakknives]

The 928 with its front engine 5.4 lt V8 (In GTS guise) was a fine car, but the folks in Stuttgart decided that it wasn’t fine enough. A great GT, but not really a sports car, more like an early version of the Panamerica, except more expensive.

A similarly priced 993 Turbo would have it for breakfast

Have to admit the 928 was the only Porsche I ever wanted. A mate had a silver one and at the time it was the dogs whatnots.

[Paddy!]

You think its bad now...

If we are to believe the future projections in the motor industry, specifically total vehicle autonomy and subscription/shared ownership/drive-share model...

The question will be: who needs a vehicle any different from anyone else as no-one is owning it, you don't drive it and it's not a driveway ornament that requires any amount of (subjective) beauty.

For the motor industry though there'll be some changes. It won't matter if your "drone" turns up to take you to your Reiki class with a Porsche badge on the front or some spurious Chinese brand.

[Seamaster73]

If we are to believe the future projections in the motor industry, specifically total vehicle autonomy and subscription/shared ownership/drive-share model...

Bring it on.

[Andyg]

Have to admit the 928 was the only Porsche I ever wanted. A mate had a silver one and at the time it was the dogs whatnots.

It wasn’t long ago when you could have got a 928 for about £4K. Now you see them over £20k, so the love is shared. I always wanted a 928 S4 (in Gun metal grey), but the running costs would have bankrupted me.

About 15 years ago I was chatting to a guy who had just brought his late fathers 928 back from Hong Kong and was having it fully restored. Complete engine rebuild by Autofarm, new interior by Southbound, windows out respray, etc. Total cost over £30k. When I questioned the logic. He said “where can I buy a new 4 seater, capable of 180mph, for 30k. A New Mercedes S500 was over £100k at the time. Then I understood where he was coming from. I hope he still has it.

[Velorum]

It seems to me that mainstream cars for the average person are slowly becoming akin to white goods. Steadily more reliable (though with built in obsolescence, these days related to electrics), ubiquitous, bland commodities that instill little passion. The move to electric will accelerate this.

My VW Up (which I like) even looks a bit like a washing machine / fridge - its white and very square. The VW is just a badge of course - its exactly the same as Skoda Citigo and Seat Mii, its just a branding exercise. I expect that this will become the norm.

Could be that the long standing strategy of selling cars will move away from appealing to ego, aspiration and wish fulfillment fantasy to a more pragmatic, domestic agenda.

The prospect of buying a new Hoover washing machine may be mildly diverting to some but once in situ its just a disposable commodity that you usually feel neutral about. When it doesnt work anymore you buy another and its simply part of the minutiae of everyday life. At some point in the near future cars will be close to this.

Its probably a good thing.

[jwg663]

I suppose wind tunnels, crash testing, crumple zones and vehicle legislation has made almost everything homogeneous.

Look to Audi for making the very technical 0.30 drag co-efficient of the 100 part of the advertising spiel. That was way back in 1982 (crikey!).

Vorsprung Durch Technik followed in 1983 in the UK...

[snowman]

It seems to me that mainstream cars for the average person are slowly becoming akin to white goods. Steadily more reliable (though with built in obsolescence, these days related to electrics), ubiquitous, bland commodities that instill little passion. The move to electric will accelerate this.

My VW Up (which I like) even looks a bit like a washing machine / fridge - its white and very square. The VW is just a badge of course - its exactly the same as Skoda Citigo and Seat Mii, its just a branding exercise. I expect that this will become the norm.

Could be that the long standing strategy of selling cars will move away from appealing to ego, aspiration and wish fulfillment fantasy to a more pragmatic, domestic agenda.

The prospect of buying a new Hoover washing machine may be mildly diverting to some but once in situ its just a disposable commodity that you usually feel neutral about. When it doesnt work anymore you buy another and its simply part of the minutiae of everyday life. At some point in the near future cars will be close to this.

I'm pretty sure in 20 years time, very few will buy a car, they'll simply licence use of certain number of hours...

Cars are becoming ever more like a domestic appliance - Automatic gearboxes everywhere, self parking, cruise control, the aim is to remove the driver from the equation altogether.

By the time we get there 99% of people will feel it's a good thing and that anyone who wants to drive their own car is a dangerous idiot.

Its probably a good thing.

Can't agree there, but doesn't mean it won't happen.

M

[Michael 38]

The 928 with its front engine 5.4 lt V8 (In GTS guise) was a fine car, but the folks in Stuttgart decided that it wasn’t fine enough. A great GT, but not really a sports car, more like an early version of the Panamerica, except more expensive.

A similarly priced 993 Turbo would have it for breakfast

I can remember clarkson trashing what looked like a very nice 928 when they did the Argentina road trip

[Velorum]

I'm pretty sure in 20 years time, very few will buy a car, they'll simply licence use of certain number of hours...

Cars are becoming ever more like a domestic appliance - Automatic gearboxes everywhere, self parking, cruise control, the aim is to remove the driver from the equation altogether.

By the time we get there 99% of people will feel it's a good thing and that anyone who wants to drive their own car is a dangerous idiot.

Which makes perfect sense. Leaving aside the emotional side of things, it doesnt really seem logical to own a depreciating asset that spends 90% of its time doing nothing.

If you could call on an automated car or people carrier, any time and place, probably via something like an app on your phone, and simply pay for what you use then it would make more sense financially, parking and maintenance would no longer be an issue and roads may well be safer too. There would be huge logistical challenges to overcome I guess and it will take a while for the automotive industry to move on - there's still a lot of money to be made from selling everyone an illusion of power, prestige, fun etc - it continues to be a sales and marketing bonanza.

However, everything changes in time and at some point private self operated cars and the behaviour that can now be observed on a daily basis resulting from their use will at some point be looked on with bemusement and probably incredulity..............

[Paddy!]

I don't know if posting these images will work, if not, visit the link here: https://www.businessinsider.com/5th-...11-3?r=US&IR=T

I know the world has changed considerably regarding the money tied up in oil/manufacture and those in power, voting on the big decisions having been put there by money from oil/manufacture.... so it'll take more time than what happened with the paradigm shift with car...

[Andyg]

I can remember clarkson trashing what looked like a very nice 928 when they did the Argentina road trip

It was quite a rare GT manual car as well. I think he said he paid less than £5k for it as well. All these cars were abandoned in Argentina after filming and were scrapped by the Argentina government - which is a shame really.