Reply With QuoteAnd he is correct. I have binned the (made of chocolate) locking wheel nuts on my car and always tell the fitter what the correct torque is for the nuts before they fit them. I then go home and check them myself.
I took my MR2 (loving this car) to ATS to have two new rear tyres fitted.
What was interesting was when the fitter came to remove the wheels he came over and asked me who had fitted them because the wheel nuts where on so tight, I told him not me and he asked if they had been fitted with an air gun, I said yes, he asked me if I was prepared to let him continue trying to remove them because of the danger of perhaps breaking the lock nut and then being in the sh**.
He said as a company they had stopped using the air gun a couple of year back because they just dident trust them as they often tightened the nut much to tight which could cause problems with many cars and especially mine with the lock not design on my MR2.
They use a socket on a long handle to remove the nuts and when replacing them start the nut by hand (no chance of cross threading) then nip up with a normal socket and then use a torque bar to set the correct tightness, all sounds logical to me and correct.
He said they still used the air guns on such as lorries though, in his opinion fitters using the guns on cars were being lazy and unprofessional.
And he is correct. I have binned the (made of chocolate) locking wheel nuts on my car and always tell the fitter what the correct torque is for the nuts before they fit them. I then go home and check them myself.
Yep agreed. You'd be surprised how "loose" wheel nuts are when torqued on rather than using an air gun. They don't need to be anywhere near that tight and it causes issues.
Assumed air-guns had a torque setting.
I imagine thats why so many of the supplied with the car wheel nut braces are quite small ?Originally Posted by midgetda
Like he said to me imagine being broke down in the middle of nowhere with a puncture trying to replace the wheel with the supplied brace.
Another tool I need a decent torque wrench :)
- - - Updated - - -
So did I but when I said this to the fitter he shuck his head and said don't believe it.
All decent tyre fitters I know use a torque wrench now.
Surprisingly they don't. You can use an attachment which starts twisting at specific torque, but they are imprecise and I've never seen a garage using one. Power tools save time, but need to be used judiciously with final tightening done with a proper wrench.
Not that I have seen, and if you have molybdenum Disulphide (MolyKote) on the studs/nuts - any air gun has the ability to keep tightening until the threads let go.
Costco use a torque wrench, and each nut is double checked by a second fitter going around the car, and checklist cards are used. As much as anyone can do to assure quality.
Neighbour has just forked out £40 for a new locking wheelnut key as Costco broke his last one fitting a set of new tyres and trying to remove the nut.
He then took said car to a local tyre dealer who stripped the new tool. So he then had to enlist a specialist who does two things , siezed on locking nuts and miss filling. £60 later in quote ” the time it took me to make him a brew” the offending locking nut was off. £100 plus lots of lost time.
Specialist tools used I hear you say, nope. Apparently the wheel fitter hammered on a socket then use a 1 metre tommy bar to loosen it.
Steve
Nothing wrong with using an air gun to initially tighten the wheels, most have 3-4 settings on them with variable torques however, whoever just uses them to gun them up and then go over them afterwards where it would simply click out already shouldn’t be in the motor trade. They need to be tightened to well under the wheel torque then finished with the torque wrench and rechecked again after final road-test.
undoing is a different kettle of fish though and I always try where possible to use the bar on the locking nut to undo, sometimes however an air gun on these is of benefit as the quick short crack of the impact gun is better than the progressive and sometimes off centre torque of your bar.
This is a newer version of mine but adjustable torque electrics guns exist, not that I’d rely on them, mine connects to an app (yes I know) and can be adjusted
https://uk.milwaukeetool.eu/en-gb/m1...m18-fmtiw2f12/
Never seen the point of locking wheel nuts when you can get these cheap as chips so if someone wants the wheels they will have them.
Mine are done up by hand then have a silverline torque wrench to nip up.
https://www.halfords.com/tools/hand-tools/sockets-and-accessories/laser-locking-wheel-nut-remover-696823.html?istCompanyId=b8708c57-7a02-4cf6-b2c0-dc36b54a327e&istFeedId=367c5610-f937-4c81-8609-f84582324cd6&istItemId=xxpmww&istBid=t&_$ja=tsid:| cid:11902546034|agid:113456751337|tid:pla-330015456208|crid:487900199209|nw:u|rnd:1233009768 6910074916|dvc:m|adp:|mt:|loc:9073597&gclid=CjwKCA iA-9uNBhBTEiwAN3IlNMRwbcqz6olchuxMN00T3wMcoh_xyRqhO2t bc6ZC5dD_vNbC4XJ8phoCT4oQAvD_BwE
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-.../dp/B000LFTSG6
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Range Rover locking nuts are a total nightmare!
Their normal nuts get swollen too but you can get ointment for that :-)
You’re right about the swollen nuts on Range Rovers! Just replaced some of mine. The problem is the design. They have a secondary skin over them which traps moisture and swells. There’s an engineering company out there that sell really well made solid ones but they’re expensive.
JLR nuts are rubbish,swell for fun Toyota items are a straight swap.
Lorry wheels should be torqued to the correct figure.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Yes the fitter said that as well but that he used the air gun to nip them up on lorries.
There’s a reason the supplied wheel nut spanner’s are small.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I use a 1/2" Ingersol Rand windy gun as they are known for changing my summer-winter wheels, its adjustable torque wise and how much pressure you put on the trigger, it really isn't hard, once they are nipped up I then use a 1/2 torque wrench set to 120Nm which is correct for my car..
^^^ this ^^^
We always use a lower torque setting on the air gun. 60 Nm. And top it off with a ‘normal’ torque wrench with specific settings for the individual car. Sometimes it’s not available. In that case we go for 100 Nm and it has never caused any problems.
These wrenches need to be checked for their accuracy every now and then (it depends on how much you use it). A local toolmaker does it for the workshop equipment.
Then either left for 30 mins and redone or driven a few hundred yards and redone. We change the nut studs at 800000 km or 4 years as they stretch and even at correct torque they come loose
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I went to Le Mans one year in a classic car.
Just a few miles out of Caen, I got a puncture. No problem, I thought, I've got a spare
Jacked up the car, but the nuts would not move.
I had breakdown cover and a typically contemptuous Frenchman (complete with cigarette hanging from the corner of his mouth) arrived and immediately tried with a normal wheelbrace, presumably assuming I was a stupid, lazy Englishman who hadn't even tried.
He couldn't move it, so he went back to his truck and bought out a long metal tube which he then stood on with a satisfied smirk, which faded rather quickly when the tube bent to 45 degrees and the nut stayed firm!
Eventually, he did get them off, but he was a lot less dismissive of my effort by that point!
They'd been fitted with an airgun.
M
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Last edited by snowman; 14th December 2021 at 12:08.
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
I shall be dumping my locking nuts and replacing them with standard nuts on the MR2 and also treating myself to a decent torque wrench, 76 ft lbs/103 N/m, every day I learn something but also forget something :(
On my S2k I torque the 4 standard nuts to prescribed setting, the lock nut gets nipped up tight but a bit below the standard nut setting. Not ideal but I feel more confident in the lock nut coming off.
Do we still need locking wheel nuts ? I haven't heard of any wheels being stolen or any attempts in years but my "world" is little.
That's exactly what i've been thinking.. not heard about wheel thefts for ages. In fact, when i was selling a lovely set of 4 wheels for peanuts, nobody wanted them
Agreed, no longer hear much about wheel thefts - but that could be a result of all cars coming with a locking nut.
Local garage stripped the threads on my wheel nuts for my Impreza last year, just gunning it back on full speed after a puncture repair.
Thankfully the nuts and not the wheel studs were stripped - so easy replacement.
Normally I instruct them on the torque setting and then watch them to ensure they do not use the air gun.
Also have a cheapie torque wrench (Amazon Essentials make - but is fine) for checking them myself once home.
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A close friend drove home from MOT only to realise he'd lost 3 out of the 5 wheel nuts on the way. The remaining 2 were loose too, just about holding the wheel in place. Scary, considering he was doing 80mph on the motorway. The garage forgot to tighten them. They said sorry though
Not sure why the MOT station took his wheels off as that’s not part of the test.A close friend drove home from MOT only to realise he'd lost 3 out of the 5 wheel nuts on the way. The remaining 2 were loose too, just about holding the wheel in place. Scary, considering he was doing 80mph on the motorway. The garage forgot to tighten them. They said sorry though
Whenever I’m swapping wheels on the 928 it’s a long bar to loosen them, normal socket to remove then to replace I start them by hand, hand tighten with the socket bar and final tighten with a torque wrench. Air guns are doubly nightmarish on this car as the wheel nuts are alloy and can rather easily get crunched by too much torque.
I’m enough of a nerd to take loose wheels to the fitter for tyre changes, or watch to make sure he doesn’t use an air gun on the wheel nuts.
It still happens, and probably just as often. The difference is that a few decades ago alloy wheels were the exception rather than the rule and so cars with them on were specifically targeted. Now alloys are standard on all but the most budget models and the risk of theft is spread far thinner.
Have been replacing them with std bolts on my cars since a bad experience in 2004 with some locking bolts. Changed my sister's almost new Polo too and they were terrible to remove and the wheels rusted to the hubs so no copperslip used on the wheel faces when the car was assembled.
Last year I bought a new trailer and the seller urged me to check the bolts after about 100km/60 miles. Which I did - with a torque wrench set at 100Nm. Nothing had gone wrong.
Same thing when my wife's last company car needed new tyres. The fitter urged me to come back after 200 km for a check. Even on the bill there was a void (is that the correct term?) that they would not accept responsibility of a wheel coming off when you hadn't been in for a check. So I did return... nothing wrong. But it shows that you need to be careful after changing tyres. Both companies don't come up with that without a reason.
I always notice that the tyre fitters do not check the specific car's manual about the correct torque setting. You can't tell me that a run-of-the-mill tyre fitter shop's employee knows all specific settings. I guess that they're using a most-used-setting of 100 Nm. Any idea or different experience?
M.
I thought it was common knowledge that ‘windy guns’ shouldn’t be used to tighten wheel nuts/bolts?
I use them to remove wheel nuts, depending on whether using one would damage the alloy, but use a bar on the locking nut as they’re less robust.
The majority of my cars have been VAGs of some sort of other, wheel bolt torque for those is 120 ft/lb or 168 Nm, and always check them again a few days later.
Never thought of using a torque wrench but never had alloy wheels or fancy nuts so maybe unnecessary? Do as tight as I can with supplied brace (obv. not jumping on it) and have a extendable one I can use to undo if required.
I think you will find most VAG is 120Nm not 120ft/lb..
Yes, you’re quite right, 120 Nm or 88 ft/lb.
I should have checked before parroting it on a forum!
I always zero my torque wrenches for storage, but they read in Nm, I just set them to 120 before I use them. Got my conversion the wrong way around…
Don’t wheel nuts have a Morse taper? They need more force to undo them than do them up.
Not a morse taper - but more often than not both bolts and nuts will either have a free-rotating cone or conical landing face for absolute circumferential location of the wheel. Otherwise - the clearance holes in the wheel would allow a tendency to rotate the wheel within the confines of that clearance.
I decided to buy a torque wrench so that I could set and check my wheel nuts and remove the locking nuts because they seem a feeble design.
I got the ones off from the rear that had been on and off last week and torqued correctly, bit of a struggle but off and replaced with standard wheel nuts torqued up to 103 N/m.
The front wheels had both been put on after having new wheels with the air gun, the locking nuts were very hard to remove (I nearly gave up :) ) but I got them off after a struggle and also replaced these with standard wheel nuts after rubbing some copper slip on the threads.
I then decided to check the standard nuts on the fronts that had been put on with the air gun, I managed to undo two while almost breaking my back undoing them but the third one seemed even tighter and my socket broke on this one, Bedford made in England.
If I had had a puncture while out and about I would not have had a hope in hell swapping the wheel with the cars repair jack etc.
The garage who fitted these with the air gun has now lost my business for good.
Last edited by TheTigerUK; 18th December 2021 at 17:41.
Putting the nuts on with an air gun isn’t the problem, it’s the failure to do them up under the torque with the gun and to torque them with a torque wrench is the issue.
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I imagine your a knowledgeable/skilled air gun user but how many users are not ? to be honest I had never given this much thought but now it has changed my thinking altogether and I will be much more aware when my wheels/tyres are being changed in the future thats for sure.
My Volvo is having two new rears this week, wheels will be removed here at home and given a round of product based therapy on this device
I take great probably fanatical care of my wheels, i like them to look like this at all times
When i have removed the balance weights without marking i will drive over to the tyre house in my van and get new rubber mounted then refit when i return home.
This tyre house takes great care of the rim during the fitment of new rubber but the wheel nut procedure is poor, they buzz it up with the gun then put the torque wrench on for the "Show Click" of course it never moves and one setting fits all. They are good lads but there career has peaked so i work around it.
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