Forty Years Since the Falklands War

[Skier]

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but when a serving military person you have been trained to completely serve the requirements of the U.K. armed forces without questioning the rights or wrongs.

I am sympathetic to a UK response to hostile invasions, but British have not covered themselves in glory over a long historical period of colonisation and more recently during the Iraq invasion and war.


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Are you for real? Do you think we are automatons? The military is awash with very bright people (personally I have a Bachelors and two Masters degrees) who certainly are not brainwashed to 'serve the requirements of the UK without questioning the rights or wrongs.' Many officers resigned (that's not what it's called in the military) as a consequence of the Iraq War. Libya was another foreign policy disaster. I personally didn't agree with the Iraq War (having served in the entirely justifiable Gulf War I) and it cost me my career, hence I made a major change that a very few on here are aware of. I left the military in 2017, close to my retirement age, as a reasonably senior officer because I became disillusioned with the UK government's view, and support, of the military. It afforded me a great life but for me it was time to move on.

[AlphaOmega]

Skier, I wouldn't bother responding.

IMHO, they know they're breaking the G&D no politics rule.

Any one of us can ask Eddie to review the thread to check if he agrees.

[snowman]

Just ignore the posts that stray into politics, whichever side you're on.

People died, let's just respect their memory, instead of arguing over the politics of the war.

M

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[snowman]

I agree there are ways. But with limited air cover and no direct bombing possibilities. I am not familiar with the sort of weapons available on board submarines, and how suitable they would be to destroy a couple of runways. Nor do I know the sort of anti submarine weapons available to Argentina. It’s a moot point: the fact is that on its own the UK doesn’t have long range bombing facilities nor the means to enforce air superiority on distant battlefields like this one. Which doesn’t mean they would lose the Falklands; just that it might prove even more costly in human lives.

You've got a rather rose tinted view of the effectiveness of that Vulcan raid. It was a remarkable feat, but almost certainly couldn't have been repeated.

It did little damage, that was quickly repaired, if anything it frightened the Argentine air force off using the airfield, but air superiority was achieved by the Sea Harriers, not the RAF's single Vulcan raid.

Cruise missiles launched from submarines would be at least as accurate and they could be launched hundreds (if not thousands) of miles away, making any anti-submarine capability a moot point.

Of course, fought today, the Falklands would be a totally different war, but lacking cold war style bombers wouldn't be any kind of handicap.

M

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[Bravo73]

The Vulcan story is a good one, but pretty much a pointless exercise, doing little damage.

FWIW, it wasn’t ‘pointless’ at all. It meant that the Argentinians didn’t risk basing their Skyraiders or Mirages (ISTR) at Stanley. Therefore, after flying from the mainland, they had limited endurance vs the Sea Harriers.


Edited to add: ah, I’ve just seen that you’ve mentioned that in your post above.

[aa388]

FWIW, it wasn’t ‘pointless’ at all. It meant that the Argentinians didn’t risk basing their Skyraiders or Mirages (ISTR) at Stanley. Therefore, after flying from the mainland, they had limited endurance vs the Sea Harriers.


Edited to add: ah, I’ve just seen that you’ve mentioned that in your post above.

I think a lot of people still underestimate the potency of the sea harriers in the conflict, your 100% correct though but like the Battle of Britain where the 109s had very limited fighting time.

The Skyhawk pilots who flew the runs at San Carlos were very good !!


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[Enoch]

Tornado wasn't deployed during the Falklands...GW1 however was another story.

Apologies…. I knew he flew tornados later in his career, but I’m not sure what he flew in the Falklands..

He did his full term in the RAF and left to become a Long haul pilot for Virgin.

[JasonM]

The RAF were not directly involved in the Falkland’s conflict, except for the Vulcan raid, but I think there were some RAF pilots that went and flew the Navy Sea Harriers.

[magpie215]

The RAF were not directly involved in the Falkland’s conflict, except for the Vulcan raid, but I think there were some RAF pilots that went and flew the Navy Sea Harriers.

Raf Harrier GR3s were taken south on the carriers and fleet auxiliary ships

Not forgetting the Chinooks....which then became a Chinook (Bravo November...still in service I believe?) with the sinking of AC.

[JasonM]

Raf Harrier GR3s were taken south on the carriers and fleet auxiliary ships

Not forgetting the Chinooks....which then became a Chinook (Bravo November...still in service I believe?) with the sinking of AC.

That’s the one, I forgot the details, there’s a great book about the guys that made it happen and what they had to do to keep them airworthy on the trip, one thing was they sprayed them all over with WD40 to try to stop corrosion, but the radar return increased. , I can’t remember the name of it though

[JasonM]

The book is Harrier 809 by Roland White, same author as the Vulcan raid book.

[craig1912]

The RAF were not directly involved in the Falkland’s conflict, except for the Vulcan raid, but I think there were some RAF pilots that went and flew the Navy Sea Harriers.

The RAF Regiment were, providing air defence at San Carlos

[JasonM]

The RAF Regiment were, providing air defence at San Carlos

You are quite right, my post was in the context of the pilots and planes previous comment.

[Tooks]

There were some RAF pilots flying the RN Sea Harriers, I think they were attributed with 5 ‘kills’ out of the 21 Argentine aircraft shot down in the conflict.

Whoever was doing what, and from whichever service, it was a good effort by all and my thanks go to those who did such a professional job in very difficult circumstances.

[langtoft lad]

At least we had "right" on our side, unlike the more recent Iraq & Afghanistan conflicts.

[wildheart]

The RAF were not directly involved in the Falkland’s conflict, except for the Vulcan raid, but I think there were some RAF pilots that went and flew the Navy Sea Harriers.

There’s an interview with one of the RAF pilots, on the We Have Way’s, James Holland & Al Murray Pod Cast series. The RAF boys had never flown Sea Harriers and had never flown from ships. The Navy Lads, gave them a really tough time. Even at War, the historical rivalry was still in play between the two services....incredible!!


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[jimp]

Colonel H, hero or total nutter?
https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/...2-6581867.html

[wildheart]

My mate from 2 Para, says his biggest gripe about his Falklands campaign was the footwear the Regiment were issued. He say’s the boots literally fell apart!


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[M4tt]

The RAF Regiment were, providing air defence at San Carlos

My mate Graham was a rock ape there and had a remarkable degree of respect for the Argentine pilots. He felt that they appeared not to be properly trained to fly at very low level but were brave and very lucky. Unfortunately. Beyond that, he didn't talk about it much, and didn't appear to have had a good time.

[Andyg]

"I'm not allowed to say how many planes joined the raid, but I counted them all out and I counted them all back."

You'll either remember it or not.

R

Max Hastings.

[Speedy2254]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mountain-Co.../dp/1526791625

Good read, written by my Mums cousin. Was only chatting to him last year, very interesting guy.

That's on my Kindle Wishlist. I seem to recall reading that he spoke Spanish & went forward to negotiate the surrender at Goose Green?

- - - Updated - - -

Max Hastings.

Brian Hanrahan, BBC news.

[Andyg]

Firstly, the Argentina pilots were very good and very brave. No doubt.

Secondly one of the reasons why they were less effective in San Carlos was because of the hail of fire coming up from the ships and perhaps more importantly the onshore Rapier missile batteries. Very effective at putting the Argentine pilots off. To counter this threat, the pilots had to come in very low and very fast. In some cases so low, their bombs didn’t have time to arm.

[Mr Curta]

On another visit to the islands I joined some of the annual remembrance ceremonies, which were all also very moving.

These photographs are from 2 Para Memorial at Goose Green, and the subsequent reception jointly hosted by the local population and the garrison in the community hall where over one hundred islanders were imprisoned.

[craig1912]

That's on my Kindle Wishlist. I seem to recall reading that he spoke Spanish & went forward to negotiate the surrender at Goose Green?

- - - Updated - - -

Don’t know about that. There was a short film/ to program made called Raid on Top Malo but not sure if it’s available anymore Although there is some stuff about it on You tube

[Speedy2254]

Don’t know about that. There was a short film/ to program made called Raid on Top Malo but not sure if it’s available anymore Although there is some stuff about it on You tube

I've seen it in a couple of books; the gist seems to be that Chris Keeble, acting CO of 2 PARA, thought that it was worth trying to get the Argentine forces to surrender. The search went out for a Spanish speaking officer & Captain Boswell was either the nearest or the only Spanish speaking officer. I recall one account that said he drafted the letter that went forward to the Argentine commander.
I think one of the books was "Don't Cry For Me Sergeant Major" by Bob McGowan & Jeremy Hands, who were there reporting for ITN.

[snowman]

The book is Harrier 809 by Roland White, same author as the Vulcan raid book.

Sharkey Ward's book, from the FAA viewpoint is good, quite damning about the cost of the Vulcan adventure vs its effectiveness.

But finding a truly objective account of the war is very hard.

M



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[aa388]

Firstly, the Argentina pilots were very good and very brave. No doubt.

Secondly one of the reasons why they were less effective in San Carlos was because of the hail of fire coming up from the ships and perhaps more importantly the onshore Rapier missile batteries. Very effective at putting the Argentine pilots off. To counter this threat, the pilots had to come in very low and very fast. In some cases so low, their bombs didn’t have time to arm.

That’s when they realised that the Rapier was deployed on high ground and they couldn’t depress the launcher far enough to get them to fire.

One of our aircraft got taken out by HMS Cardiff as there was no cross service communication set up early enough and they were so jumpy. It took decades before the coroner got to the truth.


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[monogroover]

Thatcher needed a small victorious war for her to remain in power.

I don't think so, would have won in '83 either way. But I love a conspiracy theory - how did she persuade the Junta to invade the islands?

[monogroover]

Don’t know about that. There was a short film/ to program made called Raid on Top Malo but not sure if it’s available anymore Although there is some stuff about it on You tube

I remember watching a documentary about that a couple of years after the war, with some of the British participants being interviewed. The part that stuck in my memory especially was when one of the Marines was tasked with shooting out a window so a grenade could be fired in. One of the Argentine defenders appeared at the window at the same moment, so he took them both out at the same time. Can't even imagine it.

[tixntox]

My mate from 2 Para, says his biggest gripe about his Falklands campaign was the footwear the Regiment were issued. He say’s the boots literally fell apart!


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As with a lot of military kit, it is often supplied after a "competitive" quote! My grandad, who served in "The First Lot" said that boots were the first items removed from German POWs!

[smalleyboy1]

My mate from 2 Para, says his biggest gripe about his Falklands campaign was the footwear the Regiment were issued. He say’s the boots literally fell apart!


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The story I heard was that somebody thought there might be quite a lot of walking to do on the islands so the decision was made to go with a ‘parade’ boot rather than a combat boot. The issued boots weren’t suitable for covering the rough ground.

I believe that the Argentinians had better boots and once they became POWs, boots would be ‘swapped’ with them.

[snowman]

I don't think so, would have won in '83 either way. But I love a conspiracy theory - how did she persuade the Junta to invade the islands?

Incompetentence, inattention and complacency.

That bit was clear enough, but success was no foregone conclusion.

However, further discussion is politics, so let's just focus on remembering the poor devils whose lives were cut short or irrevocably altered as a result.

M

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