Reply With QuoteI agree with you, the only thing I can think of it teaches you how to apply a process to get a answer,
Algebra is the most pointless and utterly useless piece of learning for real life. I'm 50 years old and have never had to find the value of x, y or any other letter in real life. Neither has anyone I know.
Unless you use it in your profession, surely it has no value (pardon the pun)?
I didn't get it at school or further education and I still don't get it. Frustratingly it's the only thing I've never been able to help the kids with. My youngest (12) is doing it now and I've been looking at her homework with her. She seems to understand more than I do but can't manage to finish the homework so I've told her she needs to get some teacher help this week.
If 99% of adults never need it and a huge percentage of students never really understand it, why do we continue to teach it? There are so many other topics that could utilise that time.
I'm a practical person so I need to see the practical application of something for me to truly 'get it'. I'm also a visual learner but seeing it doesn't help, it just looks ridiculous to me. What is an X or a Y? An apple? A monkey? Clearly not I know.
I get this but when would I ever need it?
What is the value of x if x + 7 = 10? To get the result, you need to do another calculation, i.e. 10 – 7 = 3. So, the value of x is 3.
But what's this all about?
(a+b)3=a3+3a2b+3ab2+b3;(a+b)3=a3+b3+3ab(a+b)
"Mathematical symbols, known as variables, represent quantity without having any fixed value and these are manipulated to derive solutions."
Sorry what now?
How can you add or multiply elements that aren't the same such as x or y or a or b? If x is an apple and y is a monkey then adding them gives you a monkey holding an apple. But algebra requires something different.
I'm going to see if I can have another go at it, maybe via some online learning or YouTube videos. Starting at the basics again, so I can help the child.
I agree with you, the only thing I can think of it teaches you how to apply a process to get a answer,
Cheers..
Jase
Pretty useful if you're being paid to tutor kids.
I think that's the point. It teaches you how to think systematically and apply that thinking to real world problems. As Harry Hill says "You've got to have a system". I may be a bit biased though, I enjoyed maths at school and beyond (although I have no real talent for it). I'm often found trawling youtube for tutorials on advanced maths. I find it intriguing, somewhat relaxing and aesthetically pleasing.Originally Posted by JasonM
I now work in engineering & testing.
..from vehicle testing to earthquakes - It’s useful every single day.
…if we didn’t use it your car would be crap & your house would collapse.
…ignorance does not mean it’s not useful.
z
E.g. I cannot speak Russian. ..
Real-world uses include planetary motion, cryptography, computer graphics amongst many others.
As I said, useful for certain professions but not for most in everyday life.
Physics is only explained and corroborated by maths. I reckon the only thing that can't be proven with maths................... is Religion!
Sure - calculators and computers have made maths understanding obsolete for many people but I think an analogy is those memes which depict text which are close to actual words, with the posters suggesting that words aren't important because people can interpret them even when they are obscure.
What those people don't acknowledge is that you have to know the ACTUAL words to make the assimilation.
Science & engineering is every day life !
if we didn’t do it …
- Roads collapse
- bridges fail
- TVs don’t work
- internet doesn’t exist
- i could go on
z
I don’t understand the issue.
You could use it everyday, whether in DIY, orienteering, driving, etc. not to mention those who indeed use it professionally.
The fact that you don’t means you have worked out a different way (which could be as simple as measuring the length you are missing for example, or asking your car computer to do your maths to check if you’ll make it to your chosen petrol station (or charging point). Another example was finding the unit price to check if it was better to buy the 350g pot or the 500g one, but since it must be displayed now you don’t have to anymore.
‘x’ is just a way to name an unknown quantity. Everything else is basic algebra.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I’ve always found this sort of thing easy!
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You've kind of equated that to: just about the entire population doesn't understand TV, but watching it doesn't require understanding.
+1, it was an everyday part of my job too. People ‘don’t get it’ at school because it doesn’t seem to have relevance to anything tangible.
let’s contextualise this for the current climate …
if your income is £200 a month…
…& your energy bill is £230 a month
how much short (x) are you per month ?
& that’s ( simple ) algebra…
z
I sent the OP's posting to my youngest who's a happy camper when he can solve this sort of maths puzzles. And more. Just like his mother. I'm already in a maze when I see that long equation... He thinks that it develops an insight how to solve problems. He had to undergo a 'start test' in maths when the uni started in September. Ready in 20mins and 98/100 score. The person who teaches maths to the students asked him if he wants to help during maths classes.
But yesterday I found out that this sort of math is purely a theoretical approach. It doesn't teach you any practical skills.
He's busy making a lamp for a nursery room. An assignment for his uni study Industrial Product Design. He had to figure out the circumference of a circle and then divide the total length in 18 equal lengths (for the lampshade). The circumference was not a problem. Dividing it in 18 pieces was also not a problem (22.6mm). But then came the moment of marking 18 spots with 22.6mm in between...
He took a ruler and measured 22.6mm and marked it on the circle. Then he found out that he could not place 18 marks on the circle. Simply because he measured the shortest distance
(in a straight line) between the two spots. I had to help him with a piece of copper wire (electrical wiring), a marking of 22.6mm apart on the wiring and then bending the copper wire into the shape of the circle, using the copper wire as a 'template'. Only then, 18 equally spaced marks appeared on the circle.
So yes, I have a son who's really 'gifted' when it comes to understanding maths and science. But translating it into practical, everyday use is something else - if not impossible. So it's not a surprise to see that people think: "I'm pretty handy, I'm a good with DIY and /or I understand technical problems. But I find it difficult to help my kids!" That problem is the other side of the problem I mentioned above.;
My point entirely. I’m £30 short, not x short. The x has no relevance in that scenario.
the point is - you do not know it’s £30 until you use the algebra … x is the unknown…
…you are already using algebra !
z
Mmmm............ in Scotland we call that 'sums'
To be fair not everyone needs the maths behind these applications but without having the opportunity to study at school students wouldn't know they had an aptitude and liking for the subject and we wouldn't have mathematicians.
Like someone else posted I also enjoy maths on YouTube - 'Numberphile' is a good chanel to start with...
I've used algebra and geometry probably hundreds of times in my adult life. I'm a finance guy and a Certified Public Accountant, so I'm naturally into numbers.
Simple example:
How tall is my desired aftermarket tyre so I can decide if it will approximate the height of my stock tyre to maintain speedometer accuracy?
x = (((A/25.4) * B) *2) + C
Where x is the calculated tyre height; A is the tyre width in mm; B is the tyre aspect ratio; and C is the wheel diameter in inches
x = (((235/25.4) * .45))* 2 + 18
x = ((9.25 *.45) * 2) +18
x = (4.1625 * 2) + 18
x = 8.325 + 18
x = 26.325 inches
But calculus: never!
Would look a lot simpler w/o the parentheses!I've used algebra and geometry probably hundreds of times in my adult life. I'm a finance guy and a Certified Public Accountant, so I'm naturally into numbers.
Simple example:How tall is my desired aftermarket tyre so I can decide if it will approximate the height of my stock tyre to maintain speedometer accuracy?
x = (((A/25.4) * B) *2) + C
Where x is the calculated tyre height; A is the tyre width in mm; B is the tyre aspect ratio; and C is the wheel diameter in inches
x = (((235/25.4) * .45))* 2 + 18
x = ((9.25 *.45) * 2) +18
x = (4.1625 * 2) + 18
x = 8.325 + 18
x = 26.325 inches
But calculus: never!
x = 2AB/25.4 + C
But - calculus is where it gets really interesting!I've used algebra and geometry probably hundreds of times in my adult life. I'm a finance guy and a Certified Public Accountant, so I'm naturally into numbers.
But calculus: never!
TBF - I think the equation example posted by the OP was O level (GCSE) maths - so nowadays available to all.
…but the complexity/rules for solving that particular example do not preclude anyone using the simple algebra…
…even if they don’t know it’s algebra. People use algebra all the time - they just call it by another name !
z
He tried your approach instead of dividing 360 by 18. He would not even need to know the length of the segment other than as a secondary check.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
True! The 360/18 works. But in this case, the circle is a metal ring. Not a drawing on paper. He could have drawn a circle with the metal ring as template and then do the 360/18 calculation.
So should an education only prepare a pupil for a single profession? A solid grounding in maths cannot be underestimated, I hate to say it but if your personal view regarding maths is rubbing off on your children it’s doing them no favours.
But, nursing, medicine, engineering, construction, banking, finance, economics, manufacturing, military and many others will use algebra daily. And for those that don’t the problem solving skills learnt by doing algebra at school will help immensely
What about all the incredible technologies that we benefit from in everyday life and which improve our standard of living in every conceivable way. Without pure and applied mathematics everything around us in modern life, which we take for granted, would not exist.
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Here, in the Netherlands, math education is pretty generic for the first 3, 4 yrs of secondary education. Then, pupils chose math A or math B. A = maths in day-to-day circumstances. In short: a story from which pupils must extract a math problem - and solve it. Most pupils tend to take math A., because it's 'not so difficult'. Then, math B is pure math, more abstract that math A.
Excel takes a lot of the drudgery out of algebra, but it certainly helps if you understand what you are doing. Personally and professionally, I use regression analysis pretty much every day to derive a formula and define or forecast a relationship between variables. For example, recently:
Reviewing a "factor model" for investment use I plotted the returns generated by the different scoring investments against the frequency with which they lost or made money and can now demonstrate the reason the model works is because of risk mitigation it minimises the frequency of losses, rather than making more money on each trade. That gives me confidence to market the model to investors.
When buying a used car I plotted prices of similar models, with manual and auto transmission, against year of registration and mileage. I was able to identify that there was a consistent premium applicable to cars with a particular transmission type and a strong correlation between the mileage and the price, whilst year of registration was relatively unimportant. This knowledge helped me to find a car which represented good value, being, relatively speaking, underpriced for its mileage, saving several thousands by this analysis.
On tracking the error of a watch returned from service by a local watchmaker I was able to identify that there was a problem with the movement, because there was a rising trend of the error rate - ie a watch that averaged 6 seconds per day fast this week would be ~20 seconds per day fast in 6 months' time. That got me a refund of the service cost and prompted me to send the watch for service by the manufacturer - who was able to fix a problem that the local guy could not - confirmed by a similar regression analysis over several weeks.
As a maths and science guy at school and a design engineer for 25 years, I use it regularly. Ok, your not a maths guy, that's fine, but personally I didn't see the point in this nonsense, doesn't mean I shouldn't have been exposed to it at school.
Sample question from English language GCSE paper.
Lady Macbeth is a female character who changes during the play.’ Starting with this moment in the play, explore how far you agree with this view. Write about: • how Shakespeare presents Lady Macbeth in this extract • how far Shakespeare presents Lady Macbeth as a female character who changes in the play as a whole.
Pointless bo lacks
I think these kinds of things are purely taught to separate the intellectual wheat from the chaff, as it were. To find which students understand more complex maths. Historically that would be those kids that would go to grammar schools and on to university. Obviously things have changed in today’s higher education system.
Here's one we can all relate to...
https://www.fratellowatches.com/watc...-impact-index/
Either your account has been hacked by a troll or, and I give this more credence, there was an understanding or tuition gap in your education at an early age that has resulted in life-long misunderstanding.
I'll go with the latter as there have been a few occasions in my education where I've failed to be taught or understand [1] fundamental principles and it has had a huge impact.
If so, I suspect the bit that is missing is that the character x is simply used to save us having to write "the number we don't know" or "what we need to find out" or in your scenario "how short we are is".
It's simply shorthand. An abbreviation.
You could write
How short we are is equal to £230 - £200
The number we don't know is equal to £230 - £200
What we need to find out is equal to £230 - £200
or
x = £230 - £200
[1] One of the two - can't recall which [2]
[2] The most memorable being the conjugation of verbs - I could run through them but had no idea which to apply when as, whilst I could tell you what the 2nd person plural passive subjunctive of a verb was, I had no idea of when it was appropriate to use a 2nd person passive subjunctive. [3]
[3] So the only reason that I didn't do worse in my Latin O-level was that I learned most of the Aeneid and could do the set translation of a paragraph having seen just the first 2 words of any paragraph
For what it's worth, I have faced situations in real life where I have had to use algebra, trigonometry, mechanics (static loads), statistics, and horrible, horrible, compound interest calculations. So my maths education at O-Level and A-Level did come in practically useful to me.
(Hint: Unless you really, really, really like maths, as in want to marry it and have its babies, don't do Maths and Further Maths A-Levels).
That said, the real world algebra I had to do was relatively simple and could have been worked out from logical deductive first principles even if I'd never studied it, but having learned the basics at school I had a mental model to work on which helped.
I have just been reminded that years ago I lent my A-Level maths textbooks to a friend and I haven't had them back!
Last edited by markrlondon; 6th October 2022 at 10:32.
Hehe, indeed. I would have been tempted to write: "This is a question about psychology, both the author's and the fictional character's, and this is not a psychology course".
I guess I would have got at least one point for that. ;-)
It occurs to me that part of what frustrates me about questions like that is that there is not really any 'right' answer. There is only "I wrote enough bullshit to satisfy the pre-potted ideas count that I know the examiners are really looking for" answer.
Last edited by markrlondon; 6th October 2022 at 08:17.
Now you tell me!
People use algebra every day, they just don’t recognise the thought process as algebra.
Indeed. I truly wish someone had told me.
It's been useful to me a few times. It's a tool to solve real world problems, not some mystical language dreamed up to gratify theoretical mathematicians.
This is a real world problem and one I keep coming back to, as it really annoys me!
Someone, please find X in the simplest way that they can ....
+1
Edit - sorry, mistaken!This is a real world problem and one I keep coming back to, as it really annoys me!
Someone, please find X in the simplest way that they can ....
tan(2Y) = (1.5 + X)/6
tan(Y) = X/6
2 variables, will be solvable. Will do when get home from COVID jab if no one else has!
Last edited by Kingstepper; 6th October 2022 at 10:39.
That isn’t possible. There is no way both those lines labelled Y can be the same length.This is a real world problem and one I keep coming back to, as it really annoys me!
Someone, please find X in the simplest way that they can ....
Assumed they were angles…
In that case it is possible. I’d assumed that because X was a length, Y was too. It’s a poorly annotated diagram.
Yes, angles are usually identified using the Greek alphabet.
They are, in fact, equal angles....
True, I didn't have them on my keyboard though
Use the sine rule:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guide...xfr/revision/7
Looking at the new small triangle
(Sin 90) / 1.5 = (Sin e) / G
Comparing the larger new tirangle with triangle BCD, it's clear that
G = X
So
(Sin 90) / 1.5 = (Sin e) / X
All the angles inside ANY triangle add up to 180 degrees.
From triangle ABC:
e = 180 - 90 -2y
e= 90-2y
So
(Sin 90) / 1.5 = (Sin e) / X
(Sin 90) / 1.5 = (Sin 90-2y) / X
1 / 1.5 = (Sin (90-2y)) / X
X = 1.5 Sin (90 -2y)
Sin (90 -2y) =(Cos 2y)
X = 1.5 Cos 2y
(Sin e)/6 = (Sin 2y)/ (x+1.5)
(Cos 2y)/6 = (Sin 2y)/ ((1.5 Cos 2y)+1.5)
(Cos 2y)/6 = (Sin 2y)/ (1.5(1+Cos 2y))
Cos 2y = 4 Sin 2y/ (1+Cos2y)
(Cos 2y) * (1 + Cos 2y) = 4 Sin 2y
Well that went nowhere.
Believe me, it's very easy to go nowhere with this.
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