Hunting the Rolex Rippers

[learningtofly]

Reading the article advertising its own program on the BBC, it said stolen watches were going to Paris, Romania and Dubai. Really?

Anyway, good to know it's mainly high-wealth targets in fancy restaurants and clubs located in conspicuously wealthy areas of London.

Almost seems like karma helping to restore the balance

EDIT: I should add, I don't condone the behaviour of the nasty little scrotes committing the crimes. Thanks.

Illuminating, thanks

[Fullbreakfast]

I think it is not contradictory to have two thoughts on this:

1. The thieves are responsible for their actions and should be properly punished.

2. The situation that has arisen is inevitable based on where we are as a society.

We live in a country of harsh inequalities, which is particularly evident in London where those who have nothing, and limited prospect of changing that by legitimate means, live cheek by jowl with the wealthy, some of whom conspicuously display their wealth in public. That situation breeds the kind of amoral, nihilistic individuals we saw in the programme. Human nature is such that in those circumstance a certain proportion of those who "have not" will decide to simply take from those who have.

The criminal justice regime, regardless of how stringent it is, will never alter the fundamentals of that.

[Passenger]

It was an awful production.

It was an eye opener for me on how low these lowlifes actually are - they seem to justify that what they are doing is OK because the people they rob and mentally scar for life have more watches and are better off than them?!?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I didn't see the show but honestly that's a surprise to you...everyone's the hero of their own story and I absolutely don't condone the robbing and scaring business but we inhabit an economic construct by and large which runs on a get rich or die trying and dog eat dog mentality...so if you're poor and have nowt it's ''normal'' to want what those more fortunate have...consider also the range of industries pushing the notion 24/7 that you are what you materially possess... happiness, accomplishment, status all wrapped up in one little watch..., little wonder they're a hot ticket for thieves, Just a thought.

[oldoakknives]

I think it is not contradictory to have two thoughts on this:

1. The thieves are responsible for their actions and should be properly punished.

2. The situation that has arisen is inevitable based on where we are as a society.

We live in a country of harsh inequalities, which is particularly evident in London where those who have nothing, and limited prospect of changing that by legitimate means, live cheek by jowl with the wealthy, some of whom conspicuously display their wealth in public. That situation breeds the kind of amoral, nihilistic individuals we saw in the programme. Human nature is such that in those circumstance a certain proportion of those who "have not" will decide to simply take from those who have.

The criminal justice regime, regardless of how stringent it is, will never alter the fundamentals of that.

There have always been people better off than others. To say it’s ‘inevitable’ that those less well off will violently rob those who are better off simply seeks to excuse their behaviour, and shifts the blame onto people with ‘nice things’.

[uwtc]

I didn't see the show but honestly that's a surprise to you...everyone's the hero of their own story and I absolutely don't condone the robbing and scaring business but we inhabit an economic construct by and large which runs on a get rich or die trying and dog eat dog mentality...so if you're poor and have nowt it's ''normal'' to want what those more fortunate have...consider also the range of industries pushing the notion 24/7 that you are what you materially possess... happiness, accomplishment, status all wrapped up in one little watch..., little wonder they're a hot ticket for thieves, Just a thought.

They should at worst PM the owner their offer.

[Passenger]

They should at worst PM the owner their offer.

chuckle, aye and a significantly upwardly revised offer in good faith even after the first is ignored, derided...this in a softening market.

[Fullbreakfast]

There have always been people better off than others.

...and there has always been violent crime perpetrated by the economic inferiors on those who have the wealth. That was still the case when the consequences of being caught involved hanging by the neck, so you can't solve this just by making the punishments more severe.

My thesis is that the more extreme and conspicuous the inequality, the more of this kind of crime there will be. Push it far enough and you get Louis XVI, Marie Antoinette and the French Revolution.

To say it’s ‘inevitable’ that those less well off will violently rob those who are better off simply seeks to excuse their behaviour, and shifts the blame onto people with ‘nice things’.

I'm not seeking to excuse anyone's behaviour, and I'm not trying to blame people who have 'nice things'. It's not morally wrong of a person to wear a £50k wrist watch. But in London, where you're rarely more than a few hundred metres from a council estate, it's naive not to expect that to entail some risk. It is morally wrong of someone to go robbing. But it is also not credible for this not to happen in circumstances described. If you have a city where 1,000,000 people live in poverty, is it realistic to expect 1,000,000 of those people to make the right moral choices? If 0.5% of them make very bad moral choices you've got 5,000 thieves.

[wileeeeeey]

Does it have cctv of the young Spanish goer trying to take Mick’s Rolex after non payment for her services?

[Passenger]

Eh they can feed their families for 30 p, they´re not poor just lazy, not trying hard enough...Lee Antoinette.

[funkstar]

Who are the people buying these watches?

Here's an extract from an article Hodinkee ran on the subject:


The growth of the secondary market has, in turn, made it easier for criminals to sell their stolen watches and convert them into cash. After a watch is stolen, a criminal can move it far away and quickly, often to Hong Kong, the United Arab Emirates, or Saudi Arabia, Marinello says, to a dealer who won't ask too many questions. These dealers act as fences by buying the stolen goods. They pay well below true market value – sometimes as low as a fifth or a tenth of their value – for the watches because they're presumed (or known) to be stolen or "hot." From there, the watch is effectively laundered. It might pass hands a few more times – pawn shops, trade shows, dealers – before it's brought to the legitimate secondary market, where it's intermingled with legally obtained watches to obscure its origin. It can then be offered at or near its standard market value.


The most high-profile example of using watches to launder money is the most recent round of allegations against former Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro, where he and his allies are accused of selling Rolex and Patek watches given by Saudi government officials worth $68,000 to a small retailer outside Philadelphia, and trying to sell a number of other foreign gifts, including a Chopard gift set, through Fortuna Auction in New York.

Watches are small, portable, often with high values, and with a growing market of secondary market buyers willing to pay for watches that come to them. Besides precious stones, there aren't many goods better equipped for money laundering.

[Fullbreakfast]

Here's an extract from an article Hodinkee ran on the subject:


The growth of the secondary market has, in turn, made it easier for criminals to sell their stolen watches and convert them into cash. After a watch is stolen, a criminal can move it far away and quickly, often to Hong Kong, the United Arab Emirates, or Saudi Arabia, Marinello says, to a dealer who won't ask too many questions. These dealers act as fences by buying the stolen goods. They pay well below true market value – sometimes as low as a fifth or a tenth of their value – for the watches because they're presumed (or known) to be stolen or "hot." From there, the watch is effectively laundered. It might pass hands a few more times – pawn shops, trade shows, dealers – before it's brought to the legitimate secondary market, where it's intermingled with legally obtained watches to obscure its origin. It can then be offered at or near its standard market value.


The most high-profile example of using watches to launder money is the most recent round of allegations against former Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro, where he and his allies are accused of selling Rolex and Patek watches given by Saudi government officials worth $68,000 to a small retailer outside Philadelphia, and trying to sell a number of other foreign gifts, including a Chopard gift set, through Fortuna Auction in New York.

Watches are small, portable, often with high values, and with a growing market of secondary market buyers willing to pay for watches that come to them. Besides precious stones, there aren't many goods better equipped for money laundering.

This is interesting, thanks. The whole piece is here for those who want to read:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/wh...in-watch-theft

[oldoakknives]

...and there has always been violent crime perpetrated by the economic inferiors on those who have the wealth. That was still the case when the consequences of being caught involved hanging by the neck, so you can't solve this just by making the punishments more severe.

My thesis is that the more extreme and conspicuous the inequality, the more of this kind of crime there will be. Push it far enough and you get Louis XVI, Marie Antoinette and the French Revolution.

Most people who are 'economic inferiors' are honest and hard working from what I see. But some are violent criminals, and they would still be violent criminals if everyone had the same, they aren't suddenly going to say oh look society is fair now I'll go and get a job. But I do see your point.

I'm not seeking to excuse anyone's behaviour, and I'm not trying to blame people who have 'nice things'. It's not morally wrong of a person to wear a £50k wrist watch. But in London, where you're rarely more than a few hundred metres from a council estate, it's naive not to expect that to entail some risk. It is morally wrong of someone to go robbing. But it is also not credible for this not to happen in circumstances described. If you have a city where 1,000,000 people live in poverty, is it realistic to expect 1,000,000 of those people to make the right moral choices? If 0.5% of them make very bad moral choices you've got 5,000 thieves.

I didn't think you personally were trying to excuse anyones behaviour, I perhaps could have worded my reply better. And yes it would be naive to wear a 50k watch in some areas.

[Itsguy]

...and there has always been violent crime perpetrated by the economic inferiors on those who have the wealth. That was still the case when the consequences of being caught involved hanging by the neck, so you can't solve this just by making the punishments more severe.

It won't solve it completely and some crime is inevitable, as some people are simply violent psychopaths. And yes, the consequences of a polarised society where some people wear very expensive watches that are shown all over social media are somewhat predictable. However crime waves like this are trends, where people who aren't the brightest see other people getting away with it and decide it's a great career choice. It is certainly helpful if they see that the consequences involve very long prison sentences. The alternative, which is creating a utopian society where we're all so happy and equal that no one is tempted by crime is hardly a practical solution in the short term.

[robinsongreen68]

a lot of people complaining about thhe production values, do you think criminals meeting in a back alley want a full film crew? or to attract that type of attention? i think she (the journalist) did really well to capture what she got and it was clearly through making the subjects feel somewhat at ease

[Fullbreakfast]

It won't solve it completely and some crime is inevitable, as some people are simply violent psychopaths. And yes, the consequences of a polarised society where some people wear very expensive watches that are shown all over social media are somewhat predictable. However crime waves like this are trends, where people who aren't the brightest see other people getting away with it and decide it's a great career choice. It is certainly helpful if they see that the consequences involve very long prison sentences.

Don't disagree. For it to really work though, there would need to be substantial investment in policing, the criminal justice system (CPS and courts), and prisons, which are already overcrowded to a disgraceful extent. Current government talks tough on crime, but does not actually allocate the needed resources to any of these things. Because getting the headline in the Daily Mail is free, so why address the actual problems?

There is also the issue that in London specifically, the Met has been a fairly rotten institution for decades, and additional funding alone will not cure that. Drastic measures would be required to make a real difference I feel.

The alternative, which is creating a utopian society where we're all so happy and equal that no one is tempted by crime is hardly a practical solution in the short term.

For sure we are not going to be living in a utopian society any time soon, or ever. But it's not all or nothing. Incremental improvements in society should yield incremental improvements in the crime situation that afflicts society.

[100thmonkey]

6000 reported stolen a year

Take off the fraudsters and its probably
Closer to 4000 stolen in a city of 9 million!

25000 cars stolen a year though!

Lets not shit your pants too soon.

[kace]

Well, in the first half of 2023 over 3000 watches were reported stolen in London alone.

That might be true but after we subtract those stolen in burglaries how many were stolen in the street?

[Ruggertech]

6000 reported stolen a year

Take off the fraudsters and its probably
Closer to 4000 stolen in a city of 9 million!

25000 cars stolen a year though!

Lets not shit your pants too soon.

But isn't there a difference? Surely the vast majority of the watch thefts will occur while the owner is wearing the watch and therefore in a position of physical peril. Whilst the vast majority of car thefts will occur in driveways, street parking, and carparks with the owner nowhere to be seen (apart from car jacking incidents of course).

[Montello]

Well, in the first half of 2023 over 3000 watches were reported stolen in London alone.

Aye, but most of those are burglaries not street robbers.

Was there any actual evidence presented that these characters weren’t just BS ing the journalist to make a programme?

[kace]

Surely the vast majority of the watch thefts will occur while the owner is wearing the watch and therefore in a position of physical peril.

Pretty sure that most will be stolen from homes or shoplifted, seems very unlikely to me that street theft tops those two.

Car jacking happens but most will be stolen at night off your drive or from a car park.

[Ruggertech]

Pretty sure that most will be stolen from homes or shoplifted, seems very unlikely to me that street theft tops those two.

Car jacking happens but most will be stolen at night off your drive or from a car park.

Many watch thefts will be by shoplifting or the result of burglaries for sure. But the trend of stealing from the owner in the street is growing even if it doesn't top the other two (yet). Whilst the coverage of it will hopefully lead to many owners being more carefull when out and about, it will also give the scrotes who hadn't thought of doing it the idea unfortunately.
I made basically the same point about vehicle thefts as your second paragraph.

[jukeboxs]

...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...-b1071858.html

A dubious statistic (underlined) if ever I saw one:

More than 100,000 have been stolen across the UK since 2015 and four in 10 Britons have been victims of the crime, Watchfinder & Co found.


As to the BBC programme, nothing in there should have been a surprise to anyone on here.

[oldoakknives]

A dubious statistic (underlined) if ever I saw one:

More than 100,000 have been stolen across the UK since 2015 and four in 10 Britons have been victims of the crime, Watchfinder & Co found.


As to the BBC programme, nothing in there should have been a surprise to anyone on here.

Yes, looks like someone made a mistake there! But the numbers are still pretty high!

[Montello]

I will watch the programme tonight but I can't help but think its over blowing the issue and potentially creating more of this type of crime ... the media almost making it a thing ...

The poor have always been robbing the rich ... this is just the 2023 version ...

[Filterlab]

Given that the BBC were able to track down and interview the heavily armed gang boss and his associates several times, I can’t help wondering why the police haven’t managed to yet. I suppose I should give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are working on it.

Maybe they don't pay as much as the BBC.

[Fullbreakfast]

Was there any actual evidence presented that these characters weren’t just BS ing the journalist to make a programme?

Having had some experience in the world of low-rent TV programming, I can say fairly confidently that if the people appearing weren't exactly what they were made out to be, that won't be because they hoodwinked the programme makers, but because the programme makers encouraged them and/or paid them to pretend that they were or to exaggerate the actual facts.

[Griswold]

Given that the BBC were able to track down and interview the heavily armed gang boss and his associates several times, I can’t help wondering why the police haven’t managed to yet. I suppose I should give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are in on it.

FTFY. Well, we are talking about the MET here....

[Montello]

Having had some experience in the world of low-rent TV programming, I can say fairly confidently that if the people appearing weren't exactly what they were made out to be, that won't be because they hoodwinked the programme makers, but because the programme makers encouraged them and/or paid them to pretend that they were or to exaggerate the actual facts.

Exactly, I fear this is just headline journalism with little or no actual proof that they were what they are portrayed to be ... ultimately overstating the situation and the risks to those wandering about London flashing a PP ... although I wouldn't recommend that anyway.

I'm still happy to wear a Rolex in London but then I don't frequent the obvious places and I don't wander about drunk in the backstreets.

[Tomaitch]

Surprised how bad this programme was and it wouldnt of surprised me if the robbers were just actors and it was a reconstruction . Cant believe they would give them air time as many many kids these days look up to these fellons and want to emulate them . Appalling .
next week theyll be robbing houses and filming it .......

[walkerwek1958]

The article in The Standard is sensationalist rubbish, having read the ridiculous claim about 4 in 10 Britons being affected etc I immediately discounted any of the numbers being claimed, journalists seem to have a problem with quantifying things accurately. Yes, there's a problem and possibly it's a growing problem, but the numbers being bandied about are beyond credibility. The aim of articles like this, and the BBC Documentary, is NOT to inform people, it's to sensationalise, create fear and apprehension amongst owners of certain watches.

Based on what's being reported it's not possible to get the risk into context. Over the last few years I`ve become far more apprehensive about wearing the one and only Rolex I still own, a combination of advancing years plus a perception that the risk of being 'persuaded' to give it to some chancer is real.

[Fullbreakfast]

Exactly, I fear this is just headline journalism with little or no actual proof that they were what they are portrayed to be ... ultimately overstating the situation and the risks to those wandering about London flashing a PP ... although I wouldn't recommend that anyway.

I'm still happy to wear a Rolex in London but then I don't frequent the obvious places and I don't wander about drunk in the backstreets.

There were some things that seemed a little whiffy - at least exaggerated. e.g. the girl who was a "spotter" saying she got paid £500-£1,000 for a night in a club finding targets. These watches are going to go to bent dealers at a massive markdown to legit prices, probably through an intermediary. Between the guys on the moped, the "boss" and the intermediary, I really doubt that kind of money is going to be left over for a mere spotter. Or the "big dog" saying one of the watches he'd stolen was going to be subject to a "bidding war" - really? I don't see professional fences getting involved in that kind of thing over a watch.

[kace]

Quite a lot of street ‘karma’ going on in London apparently.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...-b1071858.html

That's just nonsense, it makes no mention of burglary which we can be pretty sure where most watch thefts occur.

Reading that you'd think the streets were literally chock a block with violent criminals waiting to rob every passing Rolex owner, don't get me wrong it happens, but the article is clickbait shite.

[bwest76]

I think it is not contradictory to have two thoughts on this:

1. The thieves are responsible for their actions and should be properly punished.

2. The situation that has arisen is inevitable based on where we are as a society.

We live in a country of harsh inequalities, which is particularly evident in London where those who have nothing, and limited prospect of changing that by legitimate means, live cheek by jowl with the wealthy, some of whom conspicuously display their wealth in public. That situation breeds the kind of amoral, nihilistic individuals we saw in the programme. Human nature is such that in those circumstance a certain proportion of those who "have not" will decide to simply take from those who have.

The criminal justice regime, regardless of how stringent it is, will never alter the fundamentals of that.

We had an outside toilet and took baths in a tin bath heated by a kettle of the stove at my grandparents.

Loo roll was mostly old newspapers.

My grandparents took us around on a bus out of town,in town we walked everywhere.

Some kids had bikes my brother and I didn't for a very long time,we mostly played football with a tennis ball we were lucky if someone had a proper football.
Jumpers for goal posts.

Cricket was a bat,ball and a tree for stumps…all the cliches apply.

We saved our pocket money and bought whatever we could afford,a comic or a fishing hook.

In Germany we were an island of British kids with nothing to do but play football,nothing was layed on for us we couldn’t speak the language nor understand the culture.

In Yorkshire the RAF had 6 houses in a hamlet without even a shop,we ran around the fields and where glad when it snowed as the school bus couldn’t pick us up then.

We never stole anything,it didn’t even cross our minds to rob.

If we didn’t have it we went without.

[Montello]

Just watched it, not much substance at all.

Yes it happens but it’s a very minority crime I suspect.

[oldoakknives]

That's just nonsense, it makes no mention of burglary which we can be pretty sure where most watch thefts occur.

Reading that you'd think the streets were literally chock a block with violent criminals waiting to rob every passing Rolex owner, don't get me wrong it happens, but the article is clickbait shite.

Burglaries can involve a lot of violence as well according to the Times.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/g...soar-rw8b57bvz

[kace]

Sigh.

[Linocut]

30 minutes of my life I'll neverget back.

[Montello]

There were some things that seemed a little whiffy - at least exaggerated. e.g. the girl who was a "spotter" saying she got paid £500-£1,000 for a night in a club finding targets. These watches are going to go to bent dealers at a massive markdown to legit prices, probably through an intermediary. Between the guys on the moped, the "boss" and the intermediary, I really doubt that kind of money is going to be left over for a mere spotter. Or the "big dog" saying one of the watches he'd stolen was going to be subject to a "bidding war" - really? I don't see professional fences getting involved in that kind of thing over a watch.

Exactly, not really credible.

[theancientmariner]

It's not morally wrong of a person to wear a £50k wrist watch.

It absolutely is. It's morally wrong to have far more than you actually need while others suffer but it's also an inevitability of human nature.

the BBC program was fairly mundane to be honest. If you've been brought up with very little you'll know how hard it is to stay on the right side of the tracks, especially when you see wealthy people robbing the system, by legal, grey or illegal means. The vast majority of people won't use violence against others but a reasonable percentage of less affluent people (and most likely affluent people) will buy a product for a great price without asking where it came from. Let's face it, all these stolen watches have to be purchased by someone.

the lower down the pecking order you go, the more extreme the methods of attaining a certain amount of wealth will become. Try to steal someones watch with your bare hands will be a struggle, bring a penknife and it will make things a little easier, bring a gun and it could be very easy except for that have a go hero who might fight back. Take a 2 foot blade and no reasonable member of the public is going to argue.

[Itsguy]

Just watching it now. Can't work out if I'm a lion or a bitch. Or something. Very 'bbc free' innit.

I’m pretty sure the ‘lion’ is the one who got a job, worked hard at doing something useful, and bought a nice watch with their own money. The ‘bitch’ is the knob-head on a stolen scooter who’s on the fast track to the prison showers. But I may be confused, slang can be so hard to follow these days.

[theancientmariner]

Nope, wrong way round. I've heard a similar quote being that you're either a wolf or a sheep. The vast majority of us are sheep (not a bad thing), the wolves are those who take advantage regardless of the perceived consequences.

[Itsguy]

Nope, wrong way round. I've heard a similar quote being that you're either a wolf or a sheep. The vast majority of us are sheep (not a bad thing), the wolves are those who take advantage regardless of the perceived consequences.

I think the lions are supposed to be the ones who get irony, but again I might be confused ;-)

[theancientmariner]

I'm a sheep, what would I know? ;-)

[oldoakknives]

Nope, wrong way round. I've heard a similar quote being that you're either a wolf or a sheep. The vast majority of us are sheep (not a bad thing), the wolves are those who take advantage regardless of the perceived consequences.

Or a sheepdog apparently.

[bwest76]

I’m pretty sure the ‘lion’ is the one who got a job, worked hard at doing something useful, and bought a nice watch with their own money. The ‘bitch’ is the knob-head on a stolen scooter who’s on the fast track to the prison showers. But I may be confused, slang can be so hard to follow these days.

That is how I see it and any other reasonbly civilised man as well.

[theancientmariner]

Or a sheepdog apparently.

Please explain?

[theancientmariner]

I’m pretty sure the ‘lion’ is the one who got a job, worked hard at doing something useful, and bought a nice watch with their own money. The ‘bitch’ is the knob-head on a stolen scooter who’s on the fast track to the prison showers. But I may be confused, slang can be so hard to follow these days.

after thinking about this a little bit more, what term of reference do we use for those who create this situation, those who buy, trade and sell the merchandise? There must be a lot of those around as well given the number of stolen watches in circulation.

[Raffe]

We had an outside toilet and took baths in a tin bath heated by a kettle of the stove at my grandparents.

Loo roll was mostly old newspapers.

My grandparents took us around on a bus out of town,in town we walked everywhere.

Some kids had bikes my brother and I didn't for a very long time,we mostly played football with a tennis ball we were lucky if someone had a proper football.
Jumpers for goal posts.

Cricket was a bat,ball and a tree for stumps…all the cliches apply.

We saved our pocket money and bought whatever we could afford,a comic or a fishing hook.

In Germany we were an island of British kids with nothing to do but play football,nothing was layed on for us we couldn’t speak the language nor understand the culture.

In Yorkshire the RAF had 6 houses in a hamlet without even a shop,we ran around the fields and where glad when it snowed as the school bus couldn’t pick us up then.

We never stole anything,it didn’t even cross our minds to rob.

If we didn’t have it we went without.

That's nothing.

We walked 15 miles through the snow to school every day, uphill both ways. Lunch was a bowl of cold sand, and a rotten apple on Sundays.

[wileeeeeey]

lol uphill both ways

[Raffe]

6000 reported stolen a year

Take off the fraudsters and its probably
Closer to 4000 stolen in a city of 9 million!

25000 cars stolen a year though!

Lets not shit your pants too soon.

30% of reported stolen watches are insurance fraud?

Upon consideration and assuming not all watches are insured, closer to 50%?