Reply With Quote:thumbleft:Originally Posted by shadowman
A good and viable alternative to a Pammy, or just another expensive MM homage?
Who has one and what do you think of it/them :)
:thumbleft:
I had one, the chrono with seagull movement.
Looks OK at first glance, but then you notice it has fake screws in the lugs, the "spongy" winding seagull running 30 sec/aday fast didn't do much for a quality feel either.
But some people heve better experiences I believe :) .
Cheers,
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
I have a couple of MM's that are of exceptionally high quality - no fake screws and keep very good time indeed. They are, to all intents and purposes, 1k+ watches with a price tag a fraction of that.
I have owned Pams in the past (and probably will again) but the MM's I currently have are 80% of the watch the Pam is - seriously.
So clever my foot fell off.
Where is a good source of a 233 homage for daily beater use. Anyone got a recommendation?
I was looking at this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0396497237 but i'm far from comfortable, based on the sellers usual sale items :wink:
The mm's you see for sale at less than $100 are these fakes of the other mm's?
Have a look here: http://www.jacksontse.com/index.html
Email him for prices. Seems to be a good bloke - had a few from him, one developed a fault but he quickly sorted it.
Cheers :)
Not necessarily, they're are just some very cheap and inferior versions of many fake/homage/replicas. Some claim to have the same genuine swiss movement in them and cost several hundreds, but they tend to be the blatent fakes, sorry replicas :wink:
I have a jacksontse mm in ti with the swan neck movement and it is great. Good power reserve, sapphire glass, nicely finished case and movement, decent lume (although it doesnt last long), and a nice, stiff and well fitting crown guard. Reccomended for Ģ100, although budget Ģ50 for a decent Toshi or something because the plastic thing that comes with it looks and smells like a camels armpit.
Jackson at Jacksontse dealt with an enquiry quickly and honestly. He didn't have what I wanted but didn't BS and try to sell me something I wasn't interested in. He seems a straight chap and I'll buy in the future.
when i did some search on blank dial homages (the way some precista are made) i found this:
http://anton-c.blogspot.com/search/label/Davidsen
davidsen site is:
http://s240.photobucket.com/albums/ff85/james123chen/
in a past thread on this forum i found a link to an ebayer, Exclusive Watches Inc UK, which has unbranded dials. on paper his titanium swiss unitas looks nice, but when i've raised some more technical questions he didn't reply. for example, the font used is not consistent from one pict to the other, so you don't know what you are buying. i decided to steer away
The Marina Militare that you see on here and ebay are pretty much cheap and nasty, people may say they're great but they have crap lume, crap movements and the finishing isn't the greatest, but they are Ģ50 watches.
Personally i'd go for something a little better, there are a couple of guys who make really nice homages, RXW used too, but tailed off a bit with the later stuff, RWC (Retrospect Watch Company) do a couple of nice marina militare homages with swiss movements, and if you do a search for 'Ray Knight', he also did a few examples with some really nice stuff, especially his cali dial model and the 111 homage. There are another couple of guys who build them from scratch, they get the cases, genuine swiss movements and put it all together in a nice package that looks great as well, but they're harder to get hold off and you need to know the guys personally or where to speak to them on the internet to have a chance.
If this is indicative of RWX quality - then you can keep it and good riddance
some of the early models seemed to be OK but after they got slapped down by Panarai, they sorta became sort of a cult status (and for no good reason). you see various sellers trying to cash in on their 'rarity', but imo they're overpriced and you'd be better advised to steer clear and keep your money.
buy a cheapie homage if you want a base, Eddie's if you want a Radiomir style, or save up and buy a pre-owned one (they're not as pricey as they used to be).
thats a fake one :)If this is indicative of RWX quality - then you can keep it and good riddance
thats a mess or he's been carrying it round in his pocketthats a fake one :)If this is indicative of RWX quality - then you can keep it and good riddance
karl
I think that a lot of the RXW's are cheap copy's, but not all. I have the RXW Plasmir Milgraph and it is superb. The finish on the case and bracelt is A1 and the chinese ST19 movement (same as in Eddies PRS5) runs at + 6 secs in all 6 directions out the box (My watch man timed it), it dosent get better than that, plus, and a big plus for a skinny sod like me is that it is a 40mm watch.
The original leather strap is also made by the same people supply the leather for the car seats for Rolls Royce (Connoly) and lume is just brilliant.
Thanks to all for their input. I'm now in contact with a board member, about a custom build 'fiddy'. 47mm, sterile tobacco dial, gold hands and a display back with pukka swiss movement.
I let you know what develops :)
I have an RXW MM20 and I think it's great. I have never owned a Panerai before but I have tried many of them in shops and I still prefer my RXW. Build quality is great, it runs slow at the moment but it can be fixed easily so I don;t worry about it.
Trouble is, that the ones actually from Ken Trading were only made for a short time but they were a real step above the rest of the stuff around at the time and achieved a great reputation, so they were then faked by the Panerai copiers so the chances of getting a real one are slim.
The custom builders around now can choose the best bits from different makers and can usually manage to produce a decent watch, but it typically costs between $500-$700 upwards or more if a non standard movement is chosen.
errr just for information, connolly went bankrupt 2002, rolls royce have been doing their leather in house for years, the loss of more and more high end customers is what caused them to fold
paul
errr just for information, the Original RXW Milgraph which I have, pictured above was first sold in 2002, so your point is???
errr just for information, connolly went bankrupt 2002, rolls royce have been doing their leather in house for years, the loss of more and more high end customers is what caused them to fold
paul
errr keep it on the bracelet i say, i always fancied one of them 8)
karl
I have some driving gloves from Connolly, bought from their shop on Conduit Street just off Regent's Street a couple of years ago. Obviously they have risen again from the ashes. Nice stuff if expensive.
We want pictures when it arrives from Finland :mrgreen: (just a wild guess :mrgreen: )
Has nothing bad to say about Jackson either. Bought this "Submersible" from him a month ago. Looks and feels great.
I never really gotted the Panerai thing so thought I was gonna try a homage (like I have done with so many other styles :wink: ) and I really appreciate the style now. Big but not too big. Might order another more "regular version" to see my thoughts on that style too.
Yuk they are horrible. Save your cash even if it's for 2-3 years and buy an original pam.
How can you think they look horrible, but like a genuine Panerai!? They look the same!
2-3 years is alo a long time but I understand your statement since homages tend to split people up. I like them since they give me the chance to try out the style and comparable size for a longer period than just at the retail store. I need some time before I can really make up my mind about a style and imo better spend 50 pounds than 2200 and loose a lot of money :?How can you think they look horrible, but like a genuine Panerai!? They look the same!
Sure I donīt get the same quality but if I love the homage I canīt see any reason why I wouldnīt like the real deal more. And if I never would have tried one of these the chances for me to ever thinking of getting a Panerai would probably be zero but now I can see myself buy a Submersible in the future.
i just meant it for information, but if you want to go into it, have you never wondered why watch strap makers don't usually boast about using connolly leather? The reason is the product they produced was fundamentally unsuitable for watch straps.errr just for information, the Original RXW Milgraph which I have, pictured above was first sold in 2002, so your point is???
errr just for information, connolly went bankrupt 2002, rolls royce have been doing their leather in house for years, the loss of more and more high end customers is what caused them to fold
paul
Connolly produced hides for the automotive industry, they used adult hides, split grain with a chromate tanning process. This was because they needed uniform thickness soft leather with large areas. Split grain means the leather is cut to a constant thickness this is necessary for the automotive industry as skin on the back of the animal is much thicker and it would make it very difficult to upholster a car with an inconsistent thickness, it also means you get more square foot per hide, the splits they used were also relatively thin which is what is needed to form the shapes in the car. With a strap you really want the thicker hide from the back of the animal.
Adult hides are of a lower quality and lower strength then calf hide as the density of the dermis is better in the younger animals, it's why children don't have wrinkles. As the dermis ages it also replaces it's elastic tissues with stiffer forms of collagen. Adult hides are larger and cheaper then calf hides, great for cars, but you don't need large areas for straps.
The chromate tanning process is fast but produces soft leather by further damaging the connective tissue and hence weakening the leather, it also contains less oils making it more susceptible to water damage.
If connolly leather really was the best thing to use, it's use would have been massive in the watch industry, especially as straps could be made from the off cuts which are normally just waste
I know it sounds good and makes it sound like it's a quality homage, but sorry to make an homage of a divers watch with strap which is completely wrong for even getting wet, actually tells the opposite story.
Can i just ask as it's something i never get, the crown guard is both a trade mark and patented by panerai, so only a genuine panerai or one produced with permission can have it on there. In effect having that on the watch is the same as writing panerai on the watch itself. RXW or who ever have never supplied the italian navy. Panerai have supplied the italian navy and have produced watches with marina militare onHas nothing bad to say about Jackson either. Bought this "Submersible" from him a month ago. Looks and feels great.
I never really gotted the Panerai thing so thought I was gonna try a homage (like I have done with so many other styles :wink: ) and I really appreciate the style now. Big but not too big. Might order another more "regular version" to see my thoughts on that style too.
The watch above has also been exactly inspired with the bezel, dial and markings of this
http://www.paneraisource.com/watch_d...porary_26.html
How is it not a fake? The label on it is fake and it has the crown guard on it that that says it must be a panerai, and it isn't?
Can i just ask as it's something i never get, the crown guard is both a trade mark and patented by panerai, so only a genuine panerai or one produced with permission can have it on there. In effect having that on the watch is the same as writing panerai on the watch itself. RXW or who ever have never supplied the italian navy. Panerai have supplied the italian navy and have produced watches with marina militare onHas nothing bad to say about Jackson either. Bought this "Submersible" from him a month ago. Looks and feels great.
I never really gotted the Panerai thing so thought I was gonna try a homage (like I have done with so many other styles :wink: ) and I really appreciate the style now. Big but not too big. Might order another more "regular version" to see my thoughts on that style too.
The watch above has also been exactly inspired with the bezel, dial and markings of this
http://www.paneraisource.com/watch_d...porary_26.html
How is it not a fake? The label on it is fake and it has the crown guard on it that that says it must be a panerai, and it isn't?
I agree but the same criteria can be applied to the likes of Alpha homages of Rolex for example, which seem to be accepted quite readily. They exist and doubtless will continue to do so.
Much as i like Panerai, i can see why fakes/homages exist. The latter are affordable the original less easily so :|
I'm in the process of ordering a sterile 'fiddy'. I don't consider that wrong in any way personally.
This may sound weird but I can accept some of mrpgkennedy statements, the crown guard issue is one even if I donīt think they solved the process (the MM on the dial is not protected though). But since this debate on homages can go on and on I donīt see any reason continue arguing since there must be 100+ threads about it. I have my opinion and some have another which I highly respect. I hope one day been able to buy a Panerai since I like this version so much (and they are not that pricey that I canīt see myself never afford one). And believe me when I look at it offcourse I want it to be the real deal instead :wink: The thing I have find out of these homages is that it never tend to scratch the itch enough no matter how good they are, only the real deal can in the end.Can i just ask as it's something i never get, the crown guard is both a trade mark and patented by panerai, so only a genuine panerai or one produced with permission can have it on there. In effect having that on the watch is the same as writing panerai on the watch itself. RXW or who ever have never supplied the italian navy. Panerai have supplied the italian navy and have produced watches with marina militare onHas nothing bad to say about Jackson either. Bought this "Submersible" from him a month ago. Looks and feels great.
I never really gotted the Panerai thing so thought I was gonna try a homage (like I have done with so many other styles :wink: ) and I really appreciate the style now. Big but not too big. Might order another more "regular version" to see my thoughts on that style too.
The watch above has also been exactly inspired with the bezel, dial and markings of this
http://www.paneraisource.com/watch_d...porary_26.html
How is it not a fake? The label on it is fake and it has the crown guard on it that that says it must be a panerai, and it isn't?
I agree but the same criteria can be applied to the likes of Alpha homages of Rolex for example, which seem to be accepted quite readily. They exist and doubtless will continue to do so.
Much as i like Panerai, i can see why fakes/homages exist. The latter are affordable the original less easily so :|
I'm in the process of ordering a sterile 'fiddy'. I don't consider that wrong in any way personally.
The only question is, has Panerai patented the crown-guard system, can anybody else use it?
If not, those MM's are illigal, end of story.
I don't know if the same applies to Rolex, do they have a patent on any of their specific features or designs?
If not, the model can be copied, without the Rolex name on the dial so to say.
Cheers,
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
These kinds of things are very difficult to enforce - especially internationally. I have some professional experience of this.
Consider Dyson. He invented the cyclone system and approached most of the existing manufacturers who knocked him back.
He then gets the funding himself, global patents, and launches his product.
And within a year most of the major manufacturers have "copied" him. I think you would struggle to find any vacuum cleaner manufacturer who isn't using his technology these days.
How? Because if you make even just a small change to the design or method it becomes effectively a new product. Dyson has won some legal actions, but at huge expense. It is very difficult.
But then if patents weren't flexible you would only be able to buy coke from Coca Cola, only buy computers from IBM or Apple, and only use the Web with British Telecom's permission etc (they argue they have the patent to hyperlinking IIRC)...
I have no problems at all with MM's. They aren't pretending to be Panerai. Look at Rolex - hundreds of manufacturers make Oyster copies - but I don't think they threaten Rolex. It is only the outright fakes I despise. Homages are fine by me.
So clever my foot fell off.
These watches will always be around, fakes, homages whatever. The difference between the fake and the homage is that the homage gives the owner the option of admitting it to not be a Panerai without looking like a berk. The fake forces the owner to pretend that it is a Panerai.
As for illegality, it probably is, but I dont think the homages will take business from Panerai. Someone who can afford a Panerai easily will just buy one, someone who needs to save and spend carefully will buy a homage and decide if they want the real thing based on how the homage works for them, and someone who cant afford a Panerai wont buy one anyway, but at least they have the option of wearing the poor-mans PAM.
The real argument is about whether or not the owner tries to pass it off as a real Panerai.
Yep, it's a difficult road to try and win your legal battles.
My dad works as an European trademark attorney, and once won a battle for Lotus.
In Germany there was quite a big garbage removal firm that called itself Lotus, and the car producer claimed that the name Lotus on the garbage removal van did their name harm. The judge agreed with that and they won that battle.
But as Flying Banana said, those legal battles are costly, and you don't allways win.
Cheers,
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
I also used to have the Zeromaster. RXW is a little inconsistent--but there are some gems. Remember that there are fakes of RXW--which is a bit confusing. I have an MM20; the crown guard is not nearly up to Panerai standards--but the case and the lume certainly are--as is the look of the piece. My MM25 GMT is absolutely beautiful and was very reasonably priced (around $1K US--in Japan I believe some customers got it for around $600)--it has an internal bezel that works perfectly and the overall look of the piece with the two crowns is 90% the look of a Panny imo. The movement is silky smooth and it appears to be at least a step above the basic level ETA. The lume is not great (which is a mystery since the MM20's is superb)--but is the lone drawback. Still, there's nothing like the real thing. I just think Panerais are not just necessarily overpriced--which I've paid for that overpricing--but it is uncomfortable for an average guy like me to walk around with such an expensive piece without a care in the world.
+1. if anything, Hommages play an important role in giving people a first rung on the ladder before climbing up to the real deal, as I think anyone who likes watches will naturally gravitate towards.
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