So being as most watch companies are owned by ETA which companies are still "independant" and of those which make their own movements? And of those which aren't ridiculously expensive?
I'm new to all this so it strikes me as odd that someone will pay, say £2000 for a watch with the same movement as another watch from the same parent company for, say, £500.
Or is that not really the case?
Yes, you're correct this is the case. Eddie (Timefactors) has produced some fantastic watches retailing under £400 that have carried the same movements as watches many times that price.Originally Posted by ant8519
There are of course some other factors, but in reality many high end watches retail for more than the sum of their parts.
Chris.
^
Far, far more.
It would be nice to have a list of all the totally independant watch companies and another list of all the companies (if any ?) who completely
make their own movements
It's not as straight forward as that as some manufactures do both. Breitling mostly use bought in movements but have also just developed their own. Panerai also use bought in movements in their range but also manufacture their own too.
Chris
naturally it would have to be complicated!
I can't help people on the subject of independant watchmakers but I can probably contribute on the matter of independent ones :P.
BTW Rolex is independent yet makes its own movements. As is Patek Philippe. Others make some of their own (AP, Breitling, Nomos) and others still make none at all (Bell & Ross, Kobold, Fortis). So there's a lot of "grey" here even before you start with the hypotheses.
Also "that same movement" might have significant alterations, tuning and finishing in one watch than it does in another. And in addition, the movement is not the sole deciding factor in the pricing of a watch. The case, bracelet, dial, hands, construction, design etc are not free!
So I'm not sure I've got the gist of the original Q. Is the OP saying that brands belonging to large conglomerates which also make their own movements are priced lower than independents? Because I don't think there's any correlation at all. There are both expensive and inexpensive independents, just as there are with multi-brand companies. For example Oris and Glycine are priced competitively compared to Longines and Rado; Breitling and Omega are priced similarly; Rolex and Blancpain, and so on. (By the way, these are economic comparisons, not cultural ones, before someone tells me that even though Rolex and Blancpain are both luxury watch brands with illustrious histories featuring in-house movements selling to well-off folks with a fair slosh of disposable, they are somehow completely different :)).
There may be some advantage that conglomerates can eke out by tweaking the transfer pricing, but in the long run any company underpricing the competition is potentially leaving money on the table if they don't up their prices to match, or if they cut their customers' throats on price, other movement makers will step in.
Nor do I remotely get this idea that watches should ever be sold at the sum of the cost of its parts. No company, at least no company without a deathwish, has ever done that, and I don't get the expectation that it should be the case with watches :scratch:
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
well explained. I ask because as a newbie I was surprised to learn that so few movements actually exist and that most chronographs for example use a 7750 and just tinker with it, while one can sell for 500 and another for 5000. I personally struggle to see why someone will pay more for what is essentially the sam.
Compare it to cars for example. You pay for the engine (the movement) and the rest of the car (the case and strap) may well cost more, but the engine is the major determinant of price. Now when we are talking watches, there really aren't that many engines to play with? Just engines "tuned" to vaying degrees...
Wasn't Rovers V8 fitted in everything from vans to sports cars?
Chris
true, but would you want a rover v8 in a ferrari?
Quite so. Which is why I would baulk at paying more than three figures for any new watch with a 7750 beating inside it, though plenty of companies (including a couple whose name begins with "Bre...") set their prices at well over £2000.
q.v. any one of a billion threads on this forum about glossy marketing/perceived value/emperor's new clothes/form vs. function etc etc.
It's also why one of the watches I would most like to own and wear is a Dornblüth.
Seiko and Nomos are independent companies that I can think of that make their own movements at an affordable price.
It was indeed but the 5.0 litre version in a TVR Griffith 8) is a lot more fun to drive than a low compression 3.5 litre version in a Landrover, costs a lot more too :lol:
Grant
The price differential between a Skoda and an Audi (same platform, same engine) strikes me as unjustified in much the same way, but I think I'm in a minority there. People pay for brands, probably more so with cars than watches.
That said, some watchmakers do more with ETA movements than others, and there's more to a watch than its movement just as there is more to a car than its engine. It's not all brand guff, though some of it undoubtedly is.
Resale values come into it too.
I take your point at audi vs skoda, but it strikes me as a lesser differential when comparing two 7750 watches....
Why? An Octavia VRS and an A3 TFSI Sportback have the same engine, same platform and same number of doors but one is £18k and the other is £22k (minimum). Skoda perform better than Audi in reliability surveys, so build doesn't seem that different.
If anything they are more similar than two 7750 watches.
I have had a few 7750 watches and they are definitely not the same. There are many factors like the case, hands, pushers, bracelet etc. When you are buying a luxury item all the little things become important. I have a Breitling Blackbird and if you put it side by side with a Sinn then you will see why the Blackbird cost more. I am not knocking Sinn by the way, I have one.
Don't forget. 7750 is not 7750 is not 7750 ;-)
All the ETA movements come in different grades (finishing and performance).
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.
You have excellent taste! :wink:
Sorry, couldn't resist an excuse to re-post photos of my baby!
I don't think that's quite the idea, rather that the finished item is sold at orders of magnitude more than its manufacturing cost. The gold in gold Rolex costs a basic £1200 max. Stainless steel much less. Figure a few hundred £ in manufacturing and finishing a bit more and then compare to final cost of ~£12k.Nor do I remotely get this idea that watches should ever be sold at the sum of the cost of its parts. No company, at least no company without a deathwish, has ever done that, and I don't get the expectation that it should be the case with watches :scratch:
The difference between a fair mark-up (16% according to Asda or Tesco) and the minimum 600% mark-up they do charge is the [s:3ljzvbm9]snob[/s:3ljzvbm9]exclusivity factor.
I'm not getting at Rolex as such, just trying to recognise that these watches are posh jewellery as much as anything else.
They try to sell as many as they can and still make them seem aspirational. And they succeed. Marketing is all.
I think Raymond Weil make some of there own movements,
but then, it seems some of there products have gone quite expensive.
:salute:
We are buying into the fantasy/image of the watch. I know what I am getting into and I am willing to pay for it. It makes me feel good. I think it's fair play to these companies for selling me something that is priced according to my perceived value of it. Nothing wrong with that and it's not their fault.
It is their fault as much as they control the brand image, they write the fantasy and that's the bit that makes us feel good about wearing a watch from a particular brand.
We don't like to think ourselves as mugs, we're much cleverer than that :wink: but we don't like to admit that in buying a watch from a big brand most of the cost goes towards funding marketing activity.
Sponsorship of Yacht regatta's, tennis tournaments, The Open to name a few; Endorsed celebrity figures, Double page spreads in Vogue, an Exhibition stand at Basel 09 and fancy HQ in Switzerland don't come cheap. But we know this already.
Chris.
and sometimes prices are inflated due to brand cachet etc....
ktmog6uk
marchingontogether!
The engine is the main differentiator but is not the main component. A BMW 318i is 60% the price of a 335i but the 335i's engine is nowhere near responsible for the price difference, even after adjusting for equipment levels. The rest of the car - the bodyshell, parts, drivetrain, trim, soundproofing, wiring - is all the same, or of comparable cost/quality. There isn't really the same segmentation in watches as there is with cars, although there is obviously a correlation between movement complexity and cost within a range.
ETA's 7750 chrono movement has been mentioned already but the 2824 movement is a good example. It's available from ETA in four or five stages of tune and finish, from basic nickel-plating and no special parts to fully upgraded balance, shock protection, finishing, tuning and COSC certification. Rather like comparing the 135 bhp 3.5l carb V8 of a 1971 Range Rover to the 220bhp injected, balanced, twin/plenum version in a Vitesse. Or, two different stages of computer chip tuning, for car drivers of the internet generation :). As someone already pointed out, a 7750 is not a 7750 is not a 7750...
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
Compare a Hamilton Khaki and a Chrono SO. Do you know the difference between the transfer price of a basic, pre-built 7750 between the ETA and Hamilton-brand business units, and the commercial price of a ebauche sent out to Breitling along with some kind of ABC analysis of the work then required to get it to the same level of "installability", including finishing, balance, tuning, cost of COSC certification etc.? If it was two times the price, would that be enough justification? Also is the rest of the watch (which costs much more) not relevant? Thats before you get to the overheads.
Besides which, a really well set-up 7750, being a top performer as well as rugged and reliable, makes an extremely effective movement, even if it doesn't make WISes wet their pants with excitement. Hell, I even like the way it looks, cams and levers and all. I'll take one over those iffy Piguet-ish movements any day :blackeye:
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
Attractive watch :DYou have excellent taste! :wink:
Sorry, couldn't resist an excuse to re-post photos of my baby!
Not an in house movement though of course - Dornbluth modify 6498s and 6497s with a three quarter plate and all the Glashutte trimmings. I like though.
Could you elaborate on that please - just for my education - I love those watches,
thanks
David
Sure. Dornbluth take a 6498 or 6497 and rework it substantially. The three quarter plate is a homage to Glashutte tradition, as is the hand-engraved balance cock. They also add nice Geneva striping, sunburst crown wheels, swan-neck and lovely screwed chatons. They are nice watches for sure, and they modify the base caliber as necessary - I believe for some of the more recent watches they have been using all kinds of indirect drive and relocating wheels and the like.Could you elaborate on that please - just for my education - I love those watches,
thanks
David
I like the finish of them and also like the dial they use on some - the matte sterling silver. It's a really nice look.
PS to the OP (and as mentioned earlier) my vote for a manufacture caliber for the price of a 2824 goes to this:
The Nomos Club. Simple, understated, moderately sized and using Nomos alpha, a 10 1/2 ligne hand-wound movement that is all in-house. Not a revolutionary movement for sure, and obviously considerably more plainly finished than the Dornbluth above, but I still would have one. In addition the movement is pretty slim and best of all if you shop around you can get one new for around the grand mark. Not bad for a genuine slab of Glashutte.
The only real independants are the likes of Swatch, Richemont, Rolex, Citizen and Seiko that have the global manufactering capability to produce everything for their products within the group. Seiko even produce their own lubricants. The Swatch Group has everything from cases, movements, hands to crystals and more. Even Patek is a Swatch customer!
Most of what we call independant are actually dependant but this does not mean that they do not produce a lot of their parts and decorations themselves or design their own movements. Some of the very small and manually produced brands are still what we could consider independant but they mostly buy in ebauche, crystals, straps and bracelets too.
The real reason that ETA is not too intersted in increasing the production of their "cheap" mass products is that a lot of the far more profitable high end "inhouse" movements are also produced by them using the customers design. Enabling them to market it as "inhouse" as its their design. Some assemble inhouse, others get their inhouse movements fully assembled, just to drop into the case. The last category is a Swiss mailing address and the watch is fully made by a contractor and still sold as "inhouse"
Since the ETA restrictions many are now making their own movements. The Frederique Constant calibre FC-700 …
… and Pequignet (look at the balance bridge on that) are two of the affordable ones.
john
Costume jewellery. Ouch!!!
Thanks!Sure. Dornbluth take a 6498 or 6497 and rework it substantially. The three quarter plate is a homage to Glashutte tradition, as is the hand-engraved balance cock. They also add nice Geneva striping, sunburst crown wheels, swan-neck and lovely screwed chatons. They are nice watches for sure, and they modify the base caliber as necessary - I believe for some of the more recent watches they have been using all kinds of indirect drive and relocating wheels and the like.Could you elaborate on that please - just for my education - I love those watches,
thanks
David
I like the finish of them and also like the dial they use on some - the matte sterling silver. It's a really nice look.
Facinating subject, great to read
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